277 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

In my last game I sent him back to Denerim but went back and told him later. The Epilogue said the ashes were never found, so perhaps he actually has to go to the temple for that.

[Brako Shepard]

Herr and Klarabella,



Thanks for the info on the ashes out come. I will be sure to do it that way next time.

[Xandurpein]

I stand by my opinion that Alistair represents a landmark in computer RPG history. This is because of the immense pouplarity he has generated, which you can't argue away even if you feel differently. He is also so well crafted that both people who him as a strong and just King, and those who see him as a cute adorable youth, can both find sides in him supporting the view, or help bring those traits within him to bloom. That is extremely well crafted writing, whatever else you may say.



The fact that there is also a large vocal group of hates him, simply means that he doesn't leave people unaffected. I am not an Alistair fan, and many times my characters end up disapointed or even upset by him, but that doesn't mean he isn't well crafted.



A zillion thanks to Bioware for being at the forefront in bringing interesting characters like him. Characters help break the old stereotype mold.

[Brako Shepard]

Oh I agree on that,



If I hate a character in a video game that much, its mostly down to great writing...not just nit picking at skills or weak powers etc.



The same can be said for Zaeed in Mass Effect 2. A complete and utter arsebrain of a man, but if you have ever come across an ex-sas or soldier, you can see how well they have written this particular character.

[Phaelducan]

You see, I loved Zaeed, but hated Alistair. Shrug, different strokes I guess. I also had a beef with the writing for ME2 though, as Zaeed (at least to me) shouldn't have "failed" as a choice for a leader in that game, but that's really off-topic.



@Xandurpein I actually disagree that it's well crafted writing. I think Alistair was the weakest character other than Dog. His backstory was the blandest, his tribulations were the blandest, and his ability to get past his issues was the weakest.



There isn't much point in debating this, though, as clearly we disagree.

[Haranalee]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The difference is that Sten will only lose 3 approval if you have done his quest. He only attacks you if you haven't done it.

I understood this to illustrate that Sten (under these conditions) truly had no honor. So, rather than it being "not in character" it was in support of the idea that people can do extreme things under the right circumstances. That no one's character is absolute.

[Costin_Razvan]

I stand by my opinion that Alistair represents a landmark in computer RPG history.

That shows just about how much you know about characters in RPG games. If the thing your going for is popularity then I would say your wrong. Obviously Dragon Age has more players then other games, but percentage wise other characters have been both equally hated and loved in many past games.

Examples would be Aerie, Carth, Tali ( just counting ME 1 here ). If by Landmark you mean just the high amount of people, I repeat again that Dragon Age has been played by more people KOTOR+BG 1 and 2+ ME1 combined. He is by no means any special character. In fact I find him to be just a different version of Carth Onassi from KOTOR 1, with more humor.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 mai 2010 - 02:30 .

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I stand by my opinion that Alistair represents a landmark in computer RPG history.

That shows just about how much you know about characters in RPG games. If the thing your going for is popularity then I would say your wrong. Obviously Dragon Age has more players then other games, but percentage wise other characters have been both equally hated and loved in many past games.

Examples would be Aerie, Carth, Tali ( just counting ME 1 here ). If by Landmark you mean just the high amount of people, I repeat again that Dragon Age has been played by more people KOTOR+BG 1 and 2+ ME1 combined. He is by no means any special character. In fact I find him to be just a different version of Carth Onassi from KOTOR 1, with more humor.

I meant the complexity in the characterization that makes people who do like him, can still disagree on who he really is. Depending on how you play the game, different aspects of his personality will be emphasized. He is not one type of character, he is affected by how you play the game.

[Costin_Razvan]

he is affected by how you play the game

He is not the first person who can completely change depending on your playstyle. Hell we have Leliana showing us that.



Atton Rand would be another great example. He can either become a Jedi Master who sets about restoring the Jedi Order, or you can make him a Sith who continues murdering people around the galaxy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Phaelducan wrote...
@Xandurpein I actually disagree that it's well crafted writing. I think Alistair was the weakest character other than Dog. His backstory was the blandest, his tribulations were the blandest, and his ability to get past his issues was the weakest.

I agree, compared to the otehr characters, Alistair does not rank high, for me, in terms of interest and complexity. When you have people like Morrigan, Sten, Leliana...etc, Alistair falls in the "meeh" list. 

He is well crafted as a romance option though. That much is clear. Even if he wouldn't do anythign to me if I was a girl.  

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

he is affected by how you play the game

He is not the first person who can completely change depending on your playstyle. Hell we have Leliana showing us that.

Atton Rand would be another great example. He can either become a Jedi Master who sets about restoring the Jedi Order, or you can make him a Sith who continues murdering people around the galaxy.

If you think Atton Rand is as deeply characterized and well written companion as Alistair, then we can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
@Xandurpein I actually disagree that it's well crafted writing. I think Alistair was the weakest character other than Dog. His backstory was the blandest, his tribulations were the blandest, and his ability to get past his issues was the weakest.

I agree, compared to the otehr characters, Alistair does not rank high, for me, in terms of interest and complexity. When you have people like Morrigan, Sten, Leliana...etc, Alistair falls in the "meeh" list. 

He is well crafted as a romance option though. That much is clear. Even if he wouldn't do anythign to me if I was a girl.  

I rank Alistair higher than you, but I have to agree that it is probably as romance option that he truly shines, that much is obvious. I would also say that in my opinion the whole cast of companions as a whole in Dragon Age beats any other game there is, by miles.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...
@Xandurpein I actually disagree that it's well crafted writing. I think Alistair was the weakest character other than Dog. His backstory was the blandest, his tribulations were the blandest, and his ability to get past his issues was the weakest.

I agree, compared to the otehr characters, Alistair does not rank high, for me, in terms of interest and complexity. When you have people like Morrigan, Sten, Leliana...etc, Alistair falls in the "meeh" list. 

He is well crafted as a romance option though. That much is clear. Even if he wouldn't do anythign to me if I was a girl.  

I rank Alistair higher than you, but I have to agree that it is probably as romance option that he truly shines, that much is obvious. I would also say that in my opinion the whole cast of companions as a whole in Dragon Age beats any other game there is, by miles.

Yes I absolutely agree.
When Alistair is compared to Jacob, Thane, Grunt and other ME characters (with the exception of Garrus and Wrex), he looks like a masterpiece of a character.
 
But within the Origin experience, I personally have found characters that are more interesting than him. That doesn't mean I think Alistair is a badly written character, because he is not. And his voice actor was phenomenal.

[Sarah1281]

AND there is someone with a legitimate claim for the throne: Alistair and the Warden.

...You mean the Cousland Warden? You realize that that's only one of six possibe origns, seven if you count both mages? And that as the child of a Teyrn they have no more claim to the throne then the child of the othr Teyrn, Anora? So if she has no legit claim (which she doesn't, which is why it's politics) then neither does the Cousland?



And Alistair has no legit claim either due to him being an unrecoginzed bastard which is why there is even a dispute in the first place and politics are what can put him on the throne?

[Addai]

Phaelducan wrote...

Alistair defers to your Warden on every major decision in the story, even backing him/her up on most of them regardless of gender or origin. For that trend to just stop at the end is akin to Alistair saying that his own petty discomfort at accepting Loghain into the Wardens is more important that the actual purpose of the Wardens. He is the only character to act inconsistently with his own supposed moral compass. That's why I say he's poorly written.

Petty discomfort?!

This sort of rendering of the event blows my mind because, as it happens, I completely agree with Alistair, so it's difficult for me to see how people can't get- even if they disagree- that he simply can't do what you're asking.  I find it so inconceivable that Loghain should share my camp, fight beside the Wardens he tried to destroy etc., that I haven't been able to do it once even for roleplay purposes.  So perhaps we are both suffering from a lack of imagination but on different ends of the spectrum.

As for characters who act hypocritically, I invite you to take a look at Wynne.

Edit:  One more thought on characters taking sudden turns that border on the absurd.  That is how it seems to me when I contemplate the idea of Loghain suddenly becoming a docile follower of "the Orlesians," as he terms the Wardens.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mai 2010 - 04:56 .

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

AND there is someone with a legitimate claim for the throne: Alistair and the Warden.

...You mean the Cousland Warden? You realize that that's only one of six possibe origns, seven if you count both mages? And that as the child of a Teyrn they have no more claim to the throne then the child of the othr Teyrn, Anora? So if she has no legit claim (which she doesn't, which is why it's politics) then neither does the Cousland?

And Alistair has no legit claim either due to him being an unrecoginzed bastard which is why there is even a dispute in the first place and politics are what can put him on the throne?

Exactly. There is no one with a legitimate claim, so it's down to politics. The only way what happens at the Landsmeet makes any sense is if you see it as two big power blocs, Anora and Eamon (who wants Alistair). The Warden will due to the circumstances be the voice that can swing the balance either way. The warden, even if a Cousland simply doesn't have the political clout to go against both Anora and Eamon and get himself/herself elected.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 04:45 .

[Phaelducan]

@Addai67 The point of the story at which that happens indicates pretty strongly that it's the PC Warden who is really in charge of the Landsmeet. At that point, you essentially invoke the right of conscription on Loghain for the greater good. There is more at stake that what happened at Ostagar. It's over and done with, and what's important is the Blight. For at least half of the origins the PC lost MUCH more than Alistair did in getting to the Landsmeet, and for the other half I'd call it a wash.



By no means would Loghain be exonerated, and by no means would he be forgiven and allowed to live his life as normal. He was offered the opportunity to die in combat facing the Darkspawn, and forgive me a little metagaming but the offer is to a level 18ish tough as nails warrior with tons of battlefield experience. Yeah, Loghain was a wretched bastard who betrayed the Wardens at Ostagar. He should pay.... and would pay by assaulting the Archdemon.



That Alistair can't see that speaks volumes to his immaturity. That the Warden can speaks volumes to their wisdom (which is why Alistair defers to the PC all along).

Executing Loghain because of his crimes is a waste, and Alistair leaving because you won't waste Loghain's talents is a bigger waste. It's a no-win scenario, upon which I find the onus of fault with Alistair (more specifically, the writing of his character).



Or... to quote George Carlin.... BS.

[Brako Shepard]

Like I said on the last page. When there writing these vital plot lines, they need to be giving more choice of what the outcome is going to be.



If you have either an extreme good plot, or an extreme bad plot. The outcome in the end looks a bit on the whacky side. In someways it really destroys the solid writing that has been behind the rest of the game.



Vital choices are brilliant, but doing them for shock value can ruin another wise amazing story.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

AND there is someone with a legitimate claim for the throne: Alistair and the Warden.

...You mean the Cousland Warden? You realize that that's only one of six possibe origns, seven if you count both mages?

I mean EVERY warden.

I mean, the Warden saves Ferelden - if he didn´t, Ferelden would be wiped out. (Upcoming Darkspawn DLC proves that, btw.)

I think this is the strongest claim anyone can have to rule.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

AND there is someone with a legitimate claim for the throne: Alistair and the Warden.

...You mean the Cousland Warden? You realize that that's only one of six possibe origns, seven if you count both mages?

I mean EVERY warden.

I mean, the Warden saves Ferelden - if he didn´t, Ferelden would be wiped out. (Upcoming Darkspawn DLC proves that, btw.)

I think this is the strongest claim anyone can have to rule.

Elves, mages, and dwarves could not possible have a claim to the human throne. Maybe you feel that they should but that's not how the law works. Just like how you feel Alistair being a Theirin, unacknowledged that he is, automatically gives him a claim even though if that were the case Anora couldn't stand against him. Ferelden law does not work like that and that is all that matters when choosing the new monarch, not what's 'fair.' Not to mention that Fereldenis hardly 'saved' at the Landsmeet.

And Loghain saved Ferelden, too, but that didn't convince the bannorn he had a claim to the throne now did it?

[phaonica]

I don't think Alistair or Wynne is badly written. People have insconsistancies, people can be hyprocritical, people can falter in their morality, they can be too set in their ways to see other paths, they make mistakes when they should have known better, and they can let their personal problems cloud their judgment. None of these things make a character OOC, it actually makes them more realistic, I think.

I don't think Alistair or Loghain have a drastic OOC turn at the end of the game. Alistair has shown himself to be an emotional person, I'd just never before given him a reason to rage. And imo, Loghain is respectful, reasonable, and even nice when you meet him at his tent before the Ostagar battle, so seeing him calm down at camp doesn't seem OOC to me either.

[LadyDamodred]

*is being such a good girl and not getting involved in the core of this debate*

I will say, the Hero of Ferelden doesn't really have a claim to rule, outside of the HN origin. Being a hero does not give you a claim to the throne, and after the immediate threat has passed, it would be hard to keep the nobility in check. You're not doing what Calenhad did, which is uniting everyone under your authority through alliances or kicking their asses.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 09 mai 2010 - 06:10 .

[LadyDamodred]

phaonica wrote...
I don't think Alistair or Loghain have a drastic OOC turn at the end of the game. Alistair has shown himself to be an emotional person, I'd just never before given him a reason to rage.

I think this is where a lot of the issues come in.  Alistair will challenge you on stuff, especially if you don't like each other.  But that aspect never comes out if most of your decisions are in line with his thinking.  That's my belief as to why so many people seem blind-sided or confused when he freaks out.

[Addai]

Phaelducan wrote...

@Addai67 The point of the story at which that happens indicates pretty strongly that it's the PC Warden who is really in charge of the Landsmeet. At that point, you essentially invoke the right of conscription on Loghain for the greater good. There is more at stake that what happened at Ostagar. It's over and done with, and what's important is the Blight. For at least half of the origins the PC lost MUCH more than Alistair did in getting to the Landsmeet, and for the other half I'd call it a wash.

You are not a military commander.  There is no Warden commander in Ferelden at that point.  You may well play it that your PC is "in charge," but that's not specified in game.  The fact that you take the lead is more or less an arrangement that Alistair agrees to willingly, but he simply has his limits.

That Alistair can't see that speaks volumes to his immaturity. That the Warden can speaks volumes to their wisdom (which is why Alistair defers to the PC all along).

Essentially what you're saying is that your way is the only way to play the game.  I beg to differ.  We're not going to resolve this, since I've seen a gazillion threads which all say the same things over and over.  But executing Loghain is, in my view, both justice and prudent leadership.  There is nothing in-game which suggests that he can or should be trusted.  You are simply inviting the civil war to continue, as well as a knife in your back, sooner or later.  Wartime generals execute traitors and deserters, even if they need troops.  Because it's the right thing to do and because you're better off without them.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Elves, mages, and dwarves could not possible have a claim to the human throne. Maybe you feel that they should but that's not how the law works. Just like how you feel Alistair being a Theirin, unacknowledged that he is, automatically gives him a claim even though if that were the case Anora couldn't stand against him. Ferelden law does not work like that and that is all that matters when choosing the new monarch, not what's 'fair.' Not to mention that Fereldenis hardly 'saved' at the Landsmeet.

And Loghain saved Ferelden, too, but that didn't convince the bannorn he had a claim to the throne now did it?

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?