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[Willowhugger]

To be fair, I'm not sure whether Anora ever betrays you.



She's quite clear about what she will do.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's part of their way of giving player's choices but still maintaining the story line. I sorta miss the Old KOTOR 1 system, where you could tell anyone to sod off.

Well, except the Jedi but I guess to be fair they did basically impound your ship...

[Sarah1281]

Willowhugger wrote...

To be fair, I'm not sure whether Anora ever betrays you.

She's quite clear about what she will do.

She does betray you if you promise her support and then mention that you plan on killing her father even if you don't have to. You can understand why she does that, but a lot of people seem to think that her being willing to depose Loghain is the same as her not caring if he lives or dies so they're blindsided. 

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, except the Jedi but I guess to be fair they did basically impound your ship..

And you can kill them and the Republic Fleet!

[Willowhugger]

She does betray you if you promise her support and then mention that you plan on killing her father even if you don't have to. You can understand why she does that, but a lot of people seem to think that her being willing to depose Loghain is the same as her not caring if he lives or dies so they're blindsided. 

Yeah, Anora loves her dad, that witch.

[BigBad]

Arguably, Anora's unconditional love for her father is her most humanizing characteristic. It would certainly be more politically expedient to ally with his enemies and condemn him to death in return for the throne, but it would also be more cold-blooded. I think if she had done that, there would be just as many threads (started by the same "Anora is a backstabber!" people) saying "Anora is a cold-blooded monster!"

[Willowhugger]

BigBad wrote...

Arguably, Anora's unconditional love for her father is her most humanizing characteristic. It would certainly be more politically expedient to ally with his enemies and condemn him to death in return for the throne, but it would also be more cold-blooded. I think if she had done that, there would be just as many threads (started by the same "Anora is a backstabber!" people) saying "Anora is a cold-blooded monster!"

My take on Anora's personality is that she didn't love Calian, doesn't love Alistair, and barely knows the Grey Warden.  She also wasn't raised by her father, she was raised by her mother with an idealized image of her father.  So she has no real romantic side and just a ruthlessly practical one.

[Caldarin V]

I think Loghain should have been giving the speech; something along the lines of "I was wrong, but look we stand united now"

[Addai]

Willowhugger wrote...

To be fair, I'm not sure whether Anora ever betrays you.

She's quite clear about what she will do.

a) If, at Howe's, you say "this sounds like a trap," she will promise unconditional support for you in the Landsmeet if you rescue her.

Even if you tell her at Eamon's that you can't support her bid, she will only say that her father still must be stopped, etc. etc.  And then at the Landsmeet she will flip and claim, for instance, that Loghain never tried to kill her (so, she was lying to you before), that she only asked you to rescue her because she wanted to "know your mind" (i.e. spy on you, and another lie), that he's a big hero, and so on.

In other words, she most certainly betrays you.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

To be fair, I'm not sure whether Anora ever betrays you.

She's quite clear about what she will do.

She does betray you if you promise her support and then mention that you plan on killing her father even if you don't have to. You can understand why she does that, but a lot of people seem to think that her being willing to depose Loghain is the same as her not caring if he lives or dies so they're blindsided. 

She betrays you no matter what you tell her about Loghain, if you don't tell her that you intend to support her bid for the throne.  It's not about Loghain at all, it is about her own hold on power.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2010 - 10:00 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What bothers me is not that people don't like her siding with Loghain (it's predictable and makes sense but still annoying) or not planning on supporting her but the fact that everyone insists she wants you to kiss her ass. She does nothing of the sort. She asks you to come speak with her instead of forcing a conversation and then she offers to help you if you keep her on the throne. All you have to do is say yes and she'll help you. You don't even have to carry through with it. She is proposing that you help each othre and in what universe does that translate to 'she wants you to kiss her ass'?

I have never tried this, but if you are noncommittal in your talk with her or don't speak to her at all, will she side against you in the LM?

Yes as she assumes you'll support the candidate that you and Eamon are putting up to oppose her. I'm not sure you can be noncommital as she asks you straight out 'will you support me' and won't let it drop but you can just not bother going in to speak with her.

Alright, then there you have the "kiss her ass" part.

[Willowhugger]

Not really. It's a conflict of interests, nothing more.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

To be fair, I'm not sure whether Anora ever betrays you.

She's quite clear about what she will do.

She does betray you if you promise her support and then mention that you plan on killing her father even if you don't have to. You can understand why she does that, but a lot of people seem to think that her being willing to depose Loghain is the same as her not caring if he lives or dies so they're blindsided. 

She betrays you no matter what you tell her about Loghain, if you don't tell her that you intend to support her bid for the throne.  It's not about Loghain at all, it is about her own hold on power.

Maybe I should have phrased that as 'unexpected betrayal.' She says she doesn't want her father killed if it can be helped and tells a cute story about him and a rose bush but doesn't necessarily give an indication that your bloodthirstiness on the that subject is a deal-breaker whearas given that being Queen is all she's ever known and what she was raised for since she was betrothed to Cailan shortly after his birth, I don't think her supporting Loghain if you make it clear you're not on her side was even remotely surprising.

Alright, then there you have the "kiss her ass" part.

Is it really? It's just saying 'Yes, I'll support you.' You don't have to compliment her, promise to do anything except mutual support, get sent on any more errands (going to Howe's was necessary to win the Landsmeet anyway with all the secrets he had in his dungeon). I still don't see how proposing mutual support means you're kissing her ass.

[Addai]

Willowhugger wrote...

Not really. It's a conflict of interests, nothing more.

She tells you one thing in private in order to manipulate you into a) risking your life on her behalf and gaining your political support.  In public, she turns on you, leading directly to- but for your armed resistance- the untimely parting of your head from your body.

Call it "conflict of interests" if you like, but that's parsing.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2010 - 10:13 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Maybe I should have phrased that as 'unexpected betrayal.' She says she doesn't want her father killed if it can be helped and tells a cute story about him and a rose bush but doesn't necessarily give an indication that your bloodthirstiness on the that subject is a deal-breaker whearas given that being Queen is all she's ever known and what she was raised for since she was betrothed to Cailan shortly after his birth, I don't think her supporting Loghain if you make it clear you're not on her side was even remotely surprising.

Bloodthirstiness?  She agrees with you herself that justice needs to be done.  What does she really think is going to happen?  But, this is besides the fact that even if you tell her "if there is any way to save him, I will do it," she will still turn on you if you don't pledge your support for her bid.

I'll just add that Anora has no trouble supporting Loghain's bloodthirst towards you, Alistair and Eamon if she thinks it will allow her to keep her throne.

Alright, then there you have the "kiss her ass" part.

Is it really? It's just saying 'Yes, I'll support you.' You don't have to compliment her, promise to do anything except mutual support, get sent on any more errands (going to Howe's was necessary to win the Landsmeet anyway with all the secrets he had in his dungeon). I still don't see how proposing mutual support means you're kissing her ass.

In order to do that, you have to agree with all her preening about herself being the only one capable of leading Ferelden etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2010 - 10:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair himself believes that, and she quite is.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Maybe I should have phrased that as 'unexpected betrayal.' She says she doesn't want her father killed if it can be helped and tells a cute story about him and a rose bush but doesn't necessarily give an indication that your bloodthirstiness on the that subject is a deal-breaker whearas given that being Queen is all she's ever known and what she was raised for since she was betrothed to Cailan shortly after his birth, I don't think her supporting Loghain if you make it clear you're not on her side was even remotely surprising.

Bloodthirstiness?  She agrees with you herself that justice needs to be done.  What does she really think is going to happen?  But, this is besides the fact that even if you tell her "if there is any way to save him, I will do it," she will still turn on you if you don't pledge your support for her bid.

I'll just add that Anora has no trouble supporting Loghain's bloodthirst towards you, Alistair and Eamon if she thinks it will allow her to keep her throne.

Well, why would she? You're trying to depose her and she barely knows you. If you don't support her and she knows this, she'll decide at least her father wants to keep her on the throne and she can deal with his issues later. If you do promise her support, then she says that she understands justice has to be done, yes, but admits that if there is a feasible way to save him then she wants to take it. She'll only turn on you if you say that basically even if the perfect option to remove him and let him live presents itself then you'll still want him dead.

Alright, then there you have the "kiss her ass" part.

Is it really? It's just saying 'Yes, I'll support you.' You don't have to compliment her, promise to do anything except mutual support, get sent on any more errands (going to Howe's was necessary to win the Landsmeet anyway with all the secrets he had in his dungeon). I still don't see how proposing mutual support means you're kissing her ass.

In order to do that, you have to agree with all her preening about herself being the only one capable of leading Ferelden etc.

Maybe implicitly. She's stating her case and since you know very little about her and Alistair is someone you've been travelling with so you could be close with and as far as she knows he's easily manipulated so you and Eamon could rule through him if you wanted. She needs to make you think supporting her is a good idea so she tells you she has experience and that Alistair has no backbone (the impression she got from what Cailan told her although he probably didn't phrase it like that). If you tell her 'no, you suck as a ruler' why would you support her? She makes her case and then you either offer support, make her marry you/Alistair/ or tell her you won't do it.

[phaonica]

Since we're discussing Anora here, I'm curious. Per character, or metagame, if you generally do not support Anora on the throne because she is power-hungry and capable of betrayal, what are your thoughts on Bhelen? Bhelen's epilogue slides suggest that he is the best candidate for king of Orzammar, and Anora has a slide that leads her to leading a Golden Age for Ferelden. Isn't Bhelen also powerhungry and capable of betrayal?

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
 

I think that the reason so many women hate Anora has a lot to do with sterotypes in romantic fiction. One of the most common clichées is all romantic fiction is the good girl (PC) who likes the popular boy (Alistair), but he is engaged/boyfriend to the wealthy popular girl (Anora).

The fact that it's suggested in the game that Alistair should marry Anora to unify the country is what seals her doom for many women.

That's a lot of it.   But some of it is the opposite, it can come from your first experience of her.    Do you play a Chivalrous noble who when intercepted trys to go down fighting to save the damsel in distress, or do you expect her to keep her literal word and back you up a the first instance when meeting Ser Cauthrien?   My wife and I have opposite opinions of Anora based not only on gender but play style.   If you are highly chivalrous and find her attractive you just are not going to illicit positive rather then negative responses from her.   Furthermore any dishonesty, manipulation you run across can be comparable to other characters you meet including some of the "good alignment" ones like Harrowmont and Eamon.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2010 - 10:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Some people support Bhelen just because they know Harrowmont can't get anything done while they believe that a hardened Alistair can so Harrowmont's weakness forces their hand while Alistair's strength gives them options.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Well, why would she? You're trying to depose her and she barely knows you. If you don't support her and she knows this, she'll decide at least her father wants to keep her on the throne and she can deal with his issues later. If you do promise her support, then she says that she understands justice has to be done, yes, but admits that if there is a feasible way to save him then she wants to take it. She'll only turn on you if you say that basically even if the perfect option to remove him and let him live presents itself then you'll still want him dead.

No, that's not true.  The issue around which Anora's support turns is your support (or lack of) for her bid for the throne.  Regardless of what you tell her regarding Loghain, she will turn on you in the Landsmeet if you don't pledge your support for her bid.

Why should she support you in deposing her father?  Because she promises to.

It's very well if you decide that it is your PC who should stick the knife in her back rather than vice versa.  As I mentioned, I've had PC's who've done this.  I really prefer to lay it all out on the table, however.

She makes her case and then you either offer support, make her marry you/Alistair/ or tell her you won't do it.

Part of it is that the game forces you to choose one or another in this exchange, leaving you no neutral option like "we'll see what the Landsmeet has to say."  It doesn't really matter, I think, because Anora would take such a neutral response as a cue to support her father and get rid of you.

(I should add, since my husband is also posting on this thread and it could get confusing , that this is the wifely side of this game login.)

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair himself believes that, and she quite is.

Like when he is saying "make me king, Anora is not an option"?

Regardless, you're free to kiss Anora's ass as much as you like in your games.  Maybe it could even lead to true love. 

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
 

I think that the reason so many women hate Anora has a lot to do with sterotypes in romantic fiction. One of the most common clichées is all romantic fiction is the good girl (PC) who likes the popular boy (Alistair), but he is engaged/boyfriend to the wealthy popular girl (Anora).

The fact that it's suggested in the game that Alistair should marry Anora to unify the country is what seals her doom for many women.

T Furthermore any dishonesty, manipulation you run across can be comparable to other characters you meet including some of the "good alignment" ones like Harrowmont and Eamon.

Or me, since I was noncommittal on the subject of her father's survival but did not let him live.  And wasn't actually sure if I would put her on the throne at the time...I talked to Eammon about her first and learned that even he didn't think she was a horrible ruler.  Even then, I was still vacillating a bit right up to the decision point and I asked both of them whether they were prepared to take the throne.  Alistair's answers made me feel more comfortable with her ruling alone.  To be honest, I actually tried having Alistair fight Loghain (just felt right RP wise) but had trouble so I switched to my rogue.  If I'd been able to win the fight easily with Alistair, I would have ended up doublecrossing her completely.

I guess that makes my PC just as bad as Anora--but I felt my PC was a pretty good guy.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Anora is a politician. In politics, nice guys finish last, and fail epically. Show me a successful "nice guy" in a position of power, and I will show you someone who has done things that would make your skin crawl and bowels turn to ice to get that position.



Anora is perfect for the position. Power wears away and corrupts everyone, eventually, in some shape or form. If they want to succeed, they must become something I find unpleasant.



Anora does a fine enough job, and it's because of her that I can spare Alistair the unpleasant fate of watching a little bit of him die inside everyday as he becomes colder and more cynical about the world. Because that's pretty much where you end up in the end, in those positions.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Regardless, you're free to kiss Anora's ass as much as you like in your games.  Maybe it could even lead to true love. 

It is not fair to suggest that all those who put Anora on the throne are ass kissing, anymore than it is fair to say that all those who put Alistair on the throne are doing it from pure emotion with little thinking.

I personally believe Anora is a better ruler. Her capacities at manipulation only bolster this efficiency. And I also believe that Cousland / Anora is the best option (all strictly opinion, which I have explained in my Monarchic future thread). There is no ass kissery involved here.