242 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

But if you DO think she's be a better ruler than Alistair, how is it ass-kissing to say so?

uuuggg

Once again:  Someone claimed you never have to kiss Anora's ass to get her to side with you in the Landsmeet.  However, in order to get her to do this, you have to agree to support her, i.e. agree with her statements that she is what Ferelden needs, etc.  You have to kiss her ass, IOW.  It's not enough for her to hear nothing from you on the matter- she will turn on you unless you explicitly agree to support her.  She wants to hear you say the words.

Now, further on, I said you also have to kiss her ass as mCousland in order to marry her.  I am assuming a bit here, because I've never played these dialogues, but at least with Alistair she makes you agree to terms that she's going to be in charge and he'll defer to her, etc.  And from what I hear of the mCousland exchanges, if you don't do the same, she will put you in your place as she sees it (e.g. reminding you pointedly that you are consort and not king).

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2010 - 05:37 .

[Addai]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

You don't have to talk to Anora before the landsmeet at Eamon's estate, it will cost you a vote, no big deal if you don't want her to be Queen anyway. When she got me captured that did it for me. 

Actually I believe Anora counts for 3 votes in the LM.  It is possible, but not easy, to win the LM vote even if she denounces you.

[Sarah1281]

That's because agreeing to support her over/with Alistair implies you either want to screw Ferelden over or you think she is a good ruler. Maybe you just have a different working definition of that phrase than I do.

[Cuddlezarro]

(e.g. reminding you pointedly that you are consort and not king).

Again she admits during the epilogue that the consort part is pretty much just a technicality you have *far* to much power to just ignore

I called her a ***** infront of her face how is that sucking up again?

its hardly sucking up if you actually AGREE she is a good ruler and dont have plans to put alistair on the throne just because she wont bend over for you like alistair doesnt mean you have to kiss her ass

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 07 mai 2010 - 05:44 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's because agreeing to support her over/with Alistair implies you either want to screw Ferelden over or you think she is a good ruler. Maybe you just have a different working definition of that phrase than I do.

indeed

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's because agreeing to support her over/with Alistair implies you either want to screw Ferelden over or you think she is a good ruler.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here?

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's because agreeing to support her over/with Alistair implies you either want to screw Ferelden over or you think she is a good ruler.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here?

Anora basically says "Okay, Eamon's calling the Landsmeet to put Alistair up as King and force my father to step down as regent. I like the idea of my father stepping down. I still want to be Queen, however, and I'm the only person besides Alistair who really has a shot for the throne right now. From what I've heard Alistair has no spine and everything thinks he's a puppet of Eamon's while everyone knows I've been ruling the country for Cailan for five years. If you keep me on the throne I'll support you. Will you do this?"

If you say something neutral like "We'll see what the Landsmeet says" then that doesn't answer the question. Will you support her? If the time comes for you to declare who you believe should be the ruler will you support her? Telling her the Landsmeet will decide has nothing to do with that. For instance, Eamon supports Alistair. He allows the Landsmeet (and then you) to decide. If Anora asked him for his support and he weren't lying he'd say no.

If you tell her no then you're political opponents and of course she won't support you.

If you tell her that you will support her (and don't call for her father's head in that conversation about how she doesn't want to kill him if it can be avoided) then she will support you. If you agree to support her then it makes no sense to tell her "No, Anora, I think you make a horrible Queen, aren't what Ferelden needs, and Alistair is better. Still, Alistair doesn't want the throne/I don't want him on the throne so why not put you up there?" If you agree to support her without engaging her to Alistair then you either feel that she is a better candidate - and she doesn't even need to be a good candidate, just better than Alistair - or you feel she will do a horrible job and you want Ferelden to suffer by having a horrible monarch.

If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass. My definition of kissing someone's ass comes from thefreedictionary.com: "to fawn over someone; to flatter and curry favor with someone." You don't have to say anything even remotely nice to Anora, you just don't tell her that she would make a terrible ruler because if that's what you think why would you support her? Sure, you can think Alistair would make a worse ruler and she is only marginally better but that's not really going to convince her you're on her side, now will it?

Can  you tell me if you're definition of kissing someone's ass differs from mine and if not how you're conversation with Anora qualifies? 

[Cuddlezarro]

(and don't call for her father's head in that conversation about how she doesn't want to kill him if it can be avoided)

I never even got this conversation option when I got xander to marry her

[Sarah1281]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

(and don't call for her father's head in that conversation about how she doesn't want to kill him if it can be avoided)

I never even got this conversation option when I got xander to marry her

It's easily avoided as it only comes up if you ask her what she wants done as far as Loghain is concerned and she says she doesn't want him to die if there is another option. If you say a flat, no-compromising he has to die for his crimes then she supports Loghain and that is the betrayal a lot of people don't see coming because she does seem to want the crown more than anything and is willing to publicly defame her own father to get it. If you offer support but are too eager (from her perspective) to see Loghain killed she turns on you while if you say it's not up to you or say you wouldn't mind seeing him spared then she'll keep supporting you.

So in that case if you're heart is set on decapitating him and you'd rather be honest, don't bring him up at all.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you say something neutral like "We'll see what the Landsmeet says" then that doesn't answer the question. Will you support her? If the time comes for you to declare who you believe should be the ruler will you support her? Telling her the Landsmeet will decide has nothing to do with that. For instance, Eamon supports Alistair. He allows the Landsmeet (and then you) to decide. If Anora asked him for his support and he weren't lying he'd say no.

If you tell her no then you're political opponents and of course she won't support you.

That's not actually the scenario as I see it.

She is at Eamon's, proposing to Eamon as well as you that you join forces.  Do you really think she believes Eamon is going to support her bid for the throne?  He is hedging and non-committal with her ("Anora, you are indeed Cailan's widow...")  Yet she does not press him for his support.

What she really is trying to do is to form a wedge between your PC and Eamon.  Yet by everything she says, she still tells you that you are allies insofar as removing Loghain goes, regardless of whether or not you explicitly offer your support for her bid.  In that, she lies to you.  She will only support your attempt to remove Loghain if she hears you suck up, i.e. agree to support her bid for the throne over Alistair's even if you don't actually agree with her that she deserves to keep her throne.

 If you agree to support her then it makes no sense to tell her "No, Anora, I think you make a horrible Queen, aren't what Ferelden needs, and Alistair is better. Still, Alistair doesn't want the throne/I don't want him on the throne so why not put you up there?"

You are putting the response in extreme terms.  You might say "I think Alistair is the better candidate but I will consider what you have proposed" or "I will support Alistair but if the Landsmeet decides for you then so be it" or something similar, and leave it at that.  Of course, as I said, that is moot and would be a waste of your breath and of game pixels, because she wants to hear you say "it's you, babe" or else she's going to call for your head.
 

If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass.

And once again, this is not the scenario I am talking about.  Although you are not given any dialogue options to express reluctant support, either.  How about "you suck at being queen, but Alistair doesn't want the throne and I'm his friend so this is your lucky day"?

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2010 - 07:16 .

[Addai]

I'm going to load an old game save to test a theory.  But, maybe someone knows the answer to this and can deny or confirm and save me some time.

I believe that even if you say you're going to call for Loghain's head, as long as you tell Anora you support her bid, she will still support you in the LM and denounce her father.  Correct?

[Sarah1281]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

If you say something neutral like "We'll see what the Landsmeet says" then that doesn't answer the question. Will you support her? If the time comes for you to declare who you believe should be the ruler will you support her? Telling her the Landsmeet will decide has nothing to do with that. For instance, Eamon supports Alistair. He allows the Landsmeet (and then you) to decide. If Anora asked him for his support and he weren't lying he'd say no.

If you tell her no then you're political opponents and of course she won't support you. [/quote]
That's not actually the scenario as I see it.

She is at Eamon's, proposing to Eamon as well as you that you join forces.  Do you really think she believes Eamon is going to support her bid for the throne?  He is hedging and non-committal with her ("Anora, you are indeed Cailan's widow...")  Yet she does not press him for his support.

What she really is trying to do is to form a wedge between your PC and Eamon.  Yet by everything she says, she still tells you that you are allies insofar as removing Loghain goes, regardless of whether or not you explicitly offer your support for her bid.  In that, she lies to you.  She will only support your attempt to remove Loghain if she hears you suck up, i.e. agree to support her bid for the throne over Alistair's even if you don't actually agree with her that she deserves to keep her throne. [/quote] There's no point in pressing Eamon for support. If Eamon supports Anora then he can't call the Landsmeet as the Landsmeet is for the purpose of putting Alistair forward as having a stronger claim to the throne than Anora (who Loghain is ruling for). They can't call a Landsmeet to make Loghain stop making all the decisions and if she tried it would just make her look incompetent since she's Queen and can't control a Teyrn (whether it's true or not she doesn't want it to look that way).

Eamon says that they're only allies of convenience and, as such, once it is no longer convenient then this will end. Note that once you kill Loghain then Eamon immediately tries to put solo Alistair on the throne and claim that the Landsmeet has decided that even if he knows Alistair and Anora have agreed to co-rule (and that's not just game mechanics as Anora says 'So much for our plan to rule together' all annoyed). Anora doesn't just want her father removed from power. She wants her father removed and herself to remain on the throne. If that's not going to happen she has a better chance of wresting power away from her father while she still remains the Queen then if she's executed (which, given her surprise as unhardened Alistair's mercy and hardened Alistair naming her his heir, is what she expects) or has to swear an oath that she gives up all claim to the throne for herself and her descendents.

She is trying to drive a small wedge between you and Eamon, I suppose, as Eamon has his heart set on a Theirin King and everyone knows that while you're more of an unknown and are far more likely to change your mind. She doesn't want to completely alienate you as you're the one Eamon is listening to and she doesn't want that to change if she succeeds in getting you to support her. She doesn't say Alistair would suck as a King, just that everyone thinks he's Eamon's puppet (and if you eavesdrop at the tavern when you first arrive back in Denerim and before Erlina shows up the nobles do say things along that line) and that it looks like you, a GW, are trying to advance your order by putting another one on the throne. She's right that she has experience ruling and Alistair has to learn everything and no, she doesn't feel she did a horrible job (though others might argue about that). Then she straight-up asks for support.


[quote] [quote]
 If you agree to support her then it makes no sense to tell her "No, Anora, I think you make a horrible Queen, aren't what Ferelden needs, and Alistair is better. Still, Alistair doesn't want the throne/I don't want him on the throne so why not put you up there?"[/quote]
You are putting the response in extreme terms.  You might say "I think Alistair is the better candidate but I will consider what you have proposed" or "I will support Alistair but if the Landsmeet decides for you then so be it" or something similar, and leave it at that.  Of course, as I said, that is moot and would be a waste of your breath and of game pixels, because she wants to hear you say "it's you, babe" or else she's going to call for your head. [/quote] Yes, that is in extremes because the other two options aren't answering the question or are telling her no and she'll knows you won't ally with her so the better option for her is her father. 

If you think Alistair is the better candidate and tell her this then what's there to think about? You'll support him. Eamon really wants Alistair on the throne but if you choose Anora he has to accept it. Saying you'll support someone else but won't go crazy and stage a coup if the Landsmeet votes against you (which, by the way, you totally do) is just saying you'll follow the laws of the land and not anything that will help her in the slightest. You already get the option to tell her you won't support her and it's a reasonable assumption that if she wins anyway you won't start killing people until they change their mind and thus have to live with it. If she asks for support and you say "I like Alistair-as-King better but who knows? You'll find out what I do at the Landsmeet" then that's not going to make her think she can count on you.
 
[quote] [quote]
If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass. [/quote]
And once again, this is not the scenario I am talking about.  Although you are not given any dialogue options to express reluctant support, either.  How about "you suck at being queen, but Alistair doesn't want the throne and I'm his friend so this is your lucky day"?[/quote] [/quote] Then you're just being selfish. If she is a disaster and Alistair is the only way to save the country then too bad for him but he needs to be the ruler. Hardened Alistair even agrees and unhardened Alistair can't even compare with Anora as he keeps running away from court and making his advisors do everything.

And say you could be that selfish and tell her just that. Do you really think she's going to believe you? The fate of the entire country is a little more important than one person's happiness, especially if you make it clear that she would make a terrible Queen.

[Sarah1281]

If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass.

And once again, this is not the scenario I am talking about.

Okay, so what scenario are you talking about? You just don't tell her that she's a bad ruler when she says she's a good one. If you could elaborate on what you mean since I seem to have missed the part where you tell her she's the only hope Ferelden has and is a solitary rose among brambles like Celene does?

I believe that even if you say you're going to call for Loghain's head, as long as you tell Anora you support her bid, she will still support you in the LM and denounce her father. Correct?

No, she turns against you. I've heard that there's a chance she'll still support you but that is a deal-breaker for her. Evenif you agree that she'll keep the throne she doesn't like it if you announce that you won't even consider a reasonable alternative to death when it comes to her father.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 mai 2010 - 07:37 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass.

And once again, this is not the scenario I am talking about.

Okay, so what scenario are you talking about? You just don't tell her that she's a bad ruler when she says she's a good one. If you could elaborate on what you mean since I seem to have missed the part where you tell her she's the only hope Ferelden has and is a solitary rose among brambles like Celene does?

I believe that even if you say you're going to call for Loghain's head, as long as you tell Anora you support her bid, she will still support you in the LM and denounce her father. Correct?

No, she turns against you. I've heard that there's a chance she'll still support you but that is a deal-breaker for her. Evenif you agree that she'll keep the throne she doesn't like it if you announce that you won't even consider a reasonable alternative to death when it comes to her father.

That reminds me of something that I wondered about.  Did Anora talk to Gregoir before the Landsmeet?  Maybe that's how she knows the Joining can be fatal.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 There's no point in pressing Eamon for support. If Eamon supports Anora then he can't call the Landsmeet as the Landsmeet is for the purpose of putting Alistair forward as having a stronger claim to the throne than Anora (who Loghain is ruling for).

The purpose of the LM is also to oppose Loghain.

They can't call a Landsmeet to make Loghain stop making all the decisions and if she tried it would just make her look incompetent since she's Queen and can't control a Teyrn (whether it's true or not she doesn't want it to look that way).

It is true or we wouldn't be in that spot, but we digress. 

Eamon says that they're only allies of convenience and, as such, once it is no longer convenient then this will end. Note that once you kill Loghain then Eamon immediately tries to put solo Alistair on the throne and claim that the Landsmeet has decided that even if he knows Alistair and Anora have agreed to co-rule (and that's not just game mechanics as Anora says 'So much for our plan to rule together' all annoyed).

Anora is responding to Alistair's statement ('wait, no one's decided that"), not Eamon's.  She's looking at Alistair when she says it.

 Anora doesn't just want her father removed from power. She wants her father removed and herself to remain on the throne.

Naturally, though she does still promise you her support in removing Loghain.

All of this is basically covering well-established ground.

She doesn't say Alistair would suck as a King,

She most certainly does!

Yes, that is in extremes because the other two options aren't answering the question or are telling her no and she'll knows you won't ally with her so the better option for her is her father. 

And hence why I say you have to either kiss her ass or tell her to shove off.

Then you're just being selfish.  

You say this like your PC could never conceivably do that.  We've already covered a few scenarios where your PC might very well say "blah blah, fine, keep your throne, what do I care."  Skadi's "drunken monkey" scenario, for instance.  It would just be nice to have a "you suck but I don't care anyway" option.  You get such dialogue options with Bhelen and Harrowmont, for example.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 mai 2010 - 07:52 .

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you agree that she will make a competent ruler (either with Alistair or without him) and thus will support her then I do not see how this is kissing her ass.

And once again, this is not the scenario I am talking about.

Okay, so what scenario are you talking about? 

I was confused a bit by this at first, too. I think Addai is saying that if you dont agree that Anora is best for the throne, you cannot get her to side against *Loghain* unless you agree to support Anora's bid for the throne. In which case, you don't agree that Anora is best, but you say you'll support her anyway to remove Loghain, that would mean you are kissing her ass for her support against Loghain.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

That reminds me of something that I wondered about.  Did Anora talk to Gregoir before the Landsmeet?  Maybe that's how she knows the Joining can be fatal.

You mean Riordan?  Yes, it's my theory that she and Riordan had a little chat, and that the idea to make Loghain a Warden after the Landsmeet was Anora's.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I was confused a bit by this at first, too. I think Addai is saying that if you dont agree that Anora is best for the throne, you cannot get her to side against *Loghain* unless you agree to support Anora's bid for the throne. In which case, you don't agree that Anora is best, but you say you'll support her anyway to remove Loghain, that would mean you are kissing her ass for her support against Loghain.

Thank you, I seem to be experiencing a failure to communicate. 

[Sarah1281]

I was confused a bit by this at first, too. I think Addai is saying that if you dont agree that Anora is best for the throne, you cannot get her to side against *Loghain* unless you agree to support Anora's bid for the throne. In which case, you don't agree that Anora is best, but you say you'll support her anyway to remove Loghain, that would mean you are kissing her ass for her support against Loghain.

But if you don't agree that Anora is better than Alistair why would you support her? The only way that could work is if you're being unbelievably selfish and putting the good of one person (or two if you're in a relationship with him and don't want to be mistress) over the entire country.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I was confused a bit by this at first, too. I think Addai is saying that if you dont agree that Anora is best for the throne, you cannot get her to side against *Loghain* unless you agree to support Anora's bid for the throne. In which case, you don't agree that Anora is best, but you say you'll support her anyway to remove Loghain, that would mean you are kissing her ass for her support against Loghain.

But if you don't agree that Anora is better than Alistair why would you support her? The only way that could work is if you're being unbelievably selfish and putting the good of one person (or two if you're in a relationship with him and don't want to be mistress) over the entire country.

Or if you are prioritizing the Blight over Ferelden. You don't care about Ferelden so long as the Blight is stopped. Eh, let me rephrase that. More like the blight is the most pressing matter and we'll worry about the leadership status later.

Modifié par phaonica, 07 mai 2010 - 07:57 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I was confused a bit by this at first, too. I think Addai is saying that if you dont agree that Anora is best for the throne, you cannot get her to side against *Loghain* unless you agree to support Anora's bid for the throne. In which case, you don't agree that Anora is best, but you say you'll support her anyway to remove Loghain, that would mean you are kissing her ass for her support against Loghain.

But if you don't agree that Anora is better than Alistair why would you support her? The only way that could work is if you're being unbelievably selfish and putting the good of one person (or two if you're in a relationship with him and don't want to be mistress) over the entire country.

The issue is what you have to do in order to get Anora to help you remove Loghain.  She will not live up to her agreement to help you do that unless you agree not just about Loghain, but about her throne.

Why is this not clear???  I'm so confused.

As for why you might tell her you support her but don't actually do so, I think we've covered that extensively.  It's what most people do even if they intend to double-cross her, just so they can win the LM vote.

[Sarah1281]

Eamon says that they're only allies of convenience and, as such, once it is no longer convenient then this will end. Note that once you kill Loghain then Eamon immediately tries to put solo Alistair on the throne and claim that the Landsmeet has decided that even if he knows Alistair and Anora have agreed to co-rule (and that's not just game mechanics as Anora says 'So much for our plan to rule together' all annoyed).

Anora is responding to Alistair's statement, not Eamon's. She's looking at him.

She can't be responding to Alistair's statement as he doens't say anything. Eamon says that the Landsmeet has decided on Alistair, Anora gets huffy, THEN Alistair says that it didn't decide anything. He always says this if he agreed to marry Anora whereas if he didn't and he is hardened and killed Loghain he may accept.

You say this like your PC could never conceivably do that. We've already covered a few scenarios where your PC might very well say "blah blah, fine, keep your throne, what do I care." Skadi's "drunken monkey" scenario, for instance. It would just be nice to have a "you suck but I don't care anyway" option. You get such dialogue options with Bhelen and Harrowmont, for example.

Sorry, by 'you' I didn't mean you specifically, just the character. As it happens, mine do try to make what they feel is the best decision in all circumstances and don't just decide they don't care and randomly pick someone like I know people sometimes do with Bhelen or Harrowmont. The Warden may not really care about Ferelden or Orzammar but since they are being called upon to single-handedly decide who becomes the ruler it is only responsible to try and make a good choice (even if there are none) and not just be apathetic.

Basically, I think it can be summed up that Anora will only support you if you agree to put her on the throne and don't bring up her father and then say you're going to kill him no matter what. She may tell you that she'll support you regardless but she's lying. I know that and as it happens I think she's responsible for Cauthrien showing up so quickly anyway as it would be easy for Erlina to run and find her the minute you leave to go find Howe and the mage who is keeping Anora trapped in the room and it's a reasonable assumption that Howe will end up dead. So Anora is deceptive, yes.

Anora tells you that she feels she is a better candidate than Alistair and explains why. Namely, her experience and the nobles seeing Alistair as an inexperienced GW put on the throne to advace the GW cause and who Eamon intends to rule through. She doesn't deny that he COULD rule since he has Eamon who could tell him what to do, just that she thinks she's better. Then she asks if you will support her.

We agree on Anora lying her ass off if she feels the need to and appear to disagree about whether she makes a competent Queen. The point of contention is really about whether she requires you to kiss her ass to actually give her support. Again, my defintion is "to fawn over someone; to flatter and curry favor with someone." Is your definition different and if not how does she do this?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 mai 2010 - 08:06 .

[JosieJ]

Breaking into this whole is/is not Anora good/evil/worthy/competent/arrogant/whatever argument to respond to the OP:



I do think that Steve Valentine delivers that speech better than Anora's VA (can't remember her name). It's a hokey speech, but he really sells it.

[phaonica]

The point of contention is really about whether she requires you to kiss her ass to actually give her support. Again, my defintion is "to fawn over someone; to flatter and curry favor with someone." Is your definition different and if not how does she do this?

She requires you to "curry her favor" in the form of you supporting her bid for the crown in exchange for her support against Loghain, even if you don't want her to be queen.

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

The point of contention is really about whether she requires you to kiss her ass to actually give her support. Again, my defintion is "to fawn over someone; to flatter and curry favor with someone." Is your definition different and if not how does she do this?

She requires you to "curry her favor" in the form of you supporting her bid for the crown in exchange for her support against Loghain, even if you don't want her to be queen.

I see that as more reciprocity. Removing Loghain will be easier with Anora's support and Anora staying on the throne will be easier with your support. If you will not help her then what motive does she have for helping you? That's like if you offer to support her bid for the throne in exchange for her speaking out against Loghain. If she declines to do this then why should you keep your end of the bargain?