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[Herr Uhl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Interesting, the Codex (Arl Eamon's letters to Cailan) says that Anora is almost 30.  Did Cailan marry an older woman?

Yes, yes he did.

Was there some political reason why he married a woman who, by the level of culture and technology of their age would have been well past her prime?  I haven't read the novels yet. If he married her for love, shame on Eamon.  The King has no right to marry for love.  He should have married a nubile 18 year old with a lot of good breeding years left in her. 

It was a planned marriage. How old was Cailan when he got the throne?

[Carmen_Willow]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Interesting, the Codex (Arl Eamon's letters to Cailan) says that Anora is almost 30.  Did Cailan marry an older woman?

Yes, yes he did.

Was there some political reason why he married a woman who, by the level of culture and technology of their age would have been well past her prime?  I haven't read the novels yet. If he married her for love, shame on Eamon.  The King has no right to marry for love.  He should have married a nubile 18 year old with a lot of good breeding years left in her. 

It was a planned marriage. How old was Cailan when he got the throne?

That explains why Loghain went over the edge.  He saw his bloodline ascending the throne through his daughter's children.  When it became pretty clear that she wasn't going to produce any, Loghain probably went to plan B.  By this time, he was totally disenchanted with Cailan, may or may not have suspected that Eamon was pressuring for an annulment, and saw his family's chance to become royalty slipping away.  Add to that, his paranoid fear of the Orlesian's and you have the perfect storm for a traitor....how sad.

[BigBad]

I believe that it's stated in the game, at least on a few loading screens, that Cailin ascended to the throne 5 years before the start of the game, upon the death of King Maric, and married Anora shortly afterwards.



As for Loghain's motivation, I really think it has much less to do with securing his bloodline's right to the throne as it does his utter paranoia regarding Orlais and foreign powers. At the Landsmeet, he's going on and on about chevaliers and the Empress controlling the Wardens and nearly foaming at the mouth. By this point, he thinks that he's the only person in Ferelden to see the true threat and to be willing to do something about it. He's wrong on all counts, of course.

[Sarah1281]

Was there some political reason why he married a woman who, by the level of culture and technology of their age would have been well past her prime? I haven't read the novels yet. If he married her for love, shame on Eamon. The King has no right to marry for love. He should have married a nubile 18 year old with a lot of good breeding years left in her.

Anora is only two or three years older than Cailan and Loghain and Maric had them betrothed shortly after Cailan was born. Cailan's been the King for five years, making Anora Queen at 22 or 23. Besides, does Anora really strike you as the type to be all lovey-dovey with Cailan? There is no way those two married for love.

I think Cailan is older too. The way Alistair tells it he was treated as a commoner and told several times that he better put any idea of ever ruling out of his mind because Cailan is the heir. They wanted to secure Cailan's position and they couldn't do that if Cailan wasn't born yet.

It depends how much older Alistair would be than Cailan. Surely it's only a few years (I refuse to believe Alistair could be over thirty given the way he acts and the fact the occupation only ended thirty years ago and Cailan is 25). Say Cailan was born when Alistair was 2. Alistair is still older but by the time he was old enough to really know what's going on there was an heir.



Just because there might not have been a legitimate heir when Alistair was born doesn't mean one wasn't going to happen so until Maric and Rowan had no luck for a number of years and rumors of Rowan's infertility started (for it would have been her as Maric had Alistair) then they might have considered legitimizing Alistair. Until then, he's strictly a commoner.

[Carmen_Willow]

BigBad wrote...

I believe that it's stated in the game, at least on a few loading screens, that Cailin ascended to the throne 5 years before the start of the game, upon the death of King Maric, and married Anora shortly afterwards.

As for Loghain's motivation, I really think it has much less to do with securing his bloodline's right to the throne as it does his utter paranoia regarding Orlais and foreign powers. At the Landsmeet, he's going on and on about chevaliers and the Empress controlling the Wardens and nearly foaming at the mouth. By this point, he thinks that he's the only person in Ferelden to see the true threat and to be willing to do something about it. He's wrong on all counts, of course.

Yes, but think to when they first married.  There was no indication of a Blight. Loghain would have seen this marriage as a great step forward for his family politically.  And, being the guy he is, I think he believed he could control Cailan, just as he controlled his daughter, and be the de facto ruler of Ferelden.  When it turned out that Cailan had a spine (if not a mature brain), Loghain would have been upset by that.  Then, when his daughter didn't secure their political place in the relm by providing an heir.....then comes the Blight.  And Cailan wants to call in the Orlesians....perfect storm.  To quote a line from The Lion in Winter, "Such is the role of sex in history...."

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 06 mai 2010 - 05:51 .

[Fault Girl]

It's just the letters in Return to Ostagar, Arl Eamon says how Anora's nearly hitting 30....It's all a bit confusing!

[Sarah1281]

ZombieGeisha wrote...

It's just the letters in Return to Ostagar, Arl Eamon says how Anora's nearly hitting 30....It's all a bit confusing!

What it says is "The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month" which I took to simply mean 'is in her late twenties' which, given Cailan is 25, could put her anywhere from 27-29.

[Fault Girl]

ahh okay!

[BigBad]

I still don't think Loghain wanted the throne for its own sake, or for the prestige of being King of Ferelden (or Regent, maintaining the fiction that his daughter still had authority as the Queen) so much as he wants the throne because he feels that he is the only person both qualified and dedicated enough to keep Ferelden an independent, isolationist nation. Loghain doesn't come off as the kind of political climber that Howe is, wanting titles for the sake of titles. It's telling that, wherever the true power may have been during his regency, he never actually named himself King or gave a hint that he was going to do so. He always referred to himself as the Regent for his daughter. It's only rumors and low-level flunkies that call him King or say he plans to take the throne. And Anora is the one who says that he may have her killed, which is hinted to be a blatant, if believable, lie told to Loghain's enemies for the sole purpose of broaching the possibility of an alliance.



The way I see it, his plan was: Preemptively destroy the most powerful detractors of his plans in the Landsmeet: Teyrn Cousland, Arl Eamon, and Arl Urien. Gain the allegience of the Circle of Magi via Uldred as a 'stick', much the same way Calenhad used them in his campaign to unite Ferelden. Eliminate a weak leader whose policies threaten to undermine Ferelden independence: ensure Cailin's death at Ostagar. Discredit the potential agents of a hated foreign power: i.e. blame the Grey Wardens for the King's death, close the borders to their reinforcements, and put a bounty on their heads to ensure survivors don't last long.



When he says at the Landsmeet that everything he has done has been to secure Ferelden's independence, he's actually not lying. Not that it excuses his actions, but his primary sins are short-sightedness, paranoia, horrendous character judgement in his associates, and a dash of hypocrisy, not hunger for power. To Loghain, the power of the throne is merely a means to an end.

[nos_astra]

... he never actually named himself King or gave a hint that he was going to do so.

Sadly, there are two hints that this may have been his plan, although it seems almost OOC for him.

His messenger demands an audience with the assembly and the King of Orzammar on behalf of King Loghain. Also later on you have a quest to steal his crown.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 mai 2010 - 09:27 .

[BigBad]

The Orzammar herald is the 'low-level flunky' I was talking about. I figure the herald would inflate Loghain's rank to make himself seem more important when trying to gain entry to Orzammar. And I'm not sure the Dwarves would understand the difference between King and Regent, since they seem to have no comparable concept in their political system and few of them know even the basics of surface life.



I didn't know about the crown. Is that one of the Crime Wave quests? I've never done those.

[Sarah1281]

I didn't know about the crown. Is that one of the Crime Wave quests? I've never done those.

Yes, it's the last one for the stealing one and you can only get it after heading to Denerim for the Landsmeet.

[BigBad]

Hmn. Seems pretty OOC for Loghain to set about commissioning a crown. My first thought is that Howe is behind it, in a bid to increase his own standing. He's hitched his wagon to Loghain, and if he can convince Loghain to officially take the throne, or at least convince people that he has, then he becomes even more important in Ferelden politics as Loghain's right hand.



But again, I've never done those quests, so it's just a guess on my part.

[Raiil]

The crown is being held by Loghain's seneschal, which makes it much more likely that Loghain was the one who ordered it being made.





I don't think Loghain would have ever tried to overthrown Cailan except for his whole raving paranoia thing about Orlais. He seemed content to chill as Teryn, and his personality doesn't seem like one that goes for glory. He thinks he's doing the right thing. :/ Which makes it all the more depressing.

[BigBad]

The most dangerous enemies are always those who truly believe they are doing the right thing. That's why, when you finally get to the Landsmeet, Loghain is still a credible threat despite you having spent the entire game up to that point undermining his efforts, stealing or killing his allies, rescuing and reinforcing the power of his enemies, and doing deeds that will see you forever remembered as a living legend.

[Sarah1281]

BigBad wrote...

Hmn. Seems pretty OOC for Loghain to set about commissioning a crown. My first thought is that Howe is behind it, in a bid to increase his own standing. He's hitched his wagon to Loghain, and if he can convince Loghain to officially take the throne, or at least convince people that he has, then he becomes even more important in Ferelden politics as Loghain's right hand.

But again, I've never done those quests, so it's just a guess on my part.

It always struck me as OOC, too, as if he wanted to stay in control the smartest thing to do would be continuing to rule through his daughter, the Queen, and having a crown kind of screams 'coup.' He doesn't ever wear it even if you don't steal it so I kind of just wrote it off as a side-quest thing.

[sassperella]

There's a conversation with loghain you can have, I only had loghain in my party once for the achievement and didn't really pay attention much at the time. But you ask him why maric didn't acknowledge alistair as his son and he says that he nearly did but it would have caused problems and threatened cailin's rule. How would it have threatened his rule if he were younger, the oldest child rules by default. If alistair was younger then he wouldn't be a threat to cailin's rule, just as a successor if Cailin died childless. Just an aside really as I feel that aistair is problably younger than cailin, but thought that his whole threat to cailin's rule thing was odd if alistair was indeed younger.

[Sarah1281]

If there is another potential heir then someone could have done what Eamon did when Maric died at the Landsmeet that put Cailan on the throne or Alistair could have been the rallying point for a rebellion (knowingly or not) whenever anything happened that people didn't like.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 mai 2010 - 03:11 .

[BigBad]

Well, see, Alistair -is- a threat to Cailan's rule. Just being Maric's son gives him a sort of legitimacy, and should Cailan prove unpopular, Alistair gives dissenters another option and a method to use that legitimacy for their own purposes. In fact, that's exactly what Eamon is doing, only to Loghain instead of Cailan.

[sassperella]

still seems tenuous. Eamon called the landsmeet against loghain and anora because they weren't of the bloodline. Cailin was definitely of the bloodline and if the older son then it should have been a no brainer. Rebellion is a different issue I suppose... but still I wish I could remember that conversation with loghain at the time it gave me the impression that alistair could actually be the oldest - though I'm probably wrong or everyone would be quoting it lol.

[BigBad]

Eamon didn't call the Landsmeet solely because the Theirin bloodline was no longer on the throne. That was a factor, yes, but if Loghain had actually been everything everyone thought he was, and hadn't been party to so many despicable acts, it's very likely that Eamon would have approved of Anora remaining on the throne. After all, Alistair is a Grey Warden, and likely cannot sire an heir due to the taint, so the bloodline argument becomes less of a factor when it's not politically expedient.

[phaonica]

I've heard that Alistair was originally meant to be older in-game, and that he was made younger to mesh with game mechanics. I wonder how early that decision was made and how much of the dialogs were already recorded / books already published. Furthermore, the toolset says Alistair is 32 and Cailan is 25 ... but again, that could be leftover from when Alistair's personality was apparently revised.

[Axekix]

32?!?!? I knew he didn't look 21 >.>

[Raiil]

Some of the information in the toolkit is wrong, apparently.





I swear to some random holy deity, it was confirmed that Alistair is fairly young. I could have sworn I saw it somewhere... or it might be nearly 2 in the morning and I'm hallucinating. Either is just as possible.

[CalJones]

Yeah there was a thread saying that Alistair's age was revised - David Gaider wrote in one of the threads to that effect. He was initially planned as a Grey Warden vet but then it would have been illogical to have the PC call the shots, so he was made younger and less confidant.

If you believe that Alistair is a certain child from The Calling, then he's only about 20-21. Although I certainly think his face looks a lot older (he looks closer to 25 to me). But if you believe he is the chambermaid's son then he could be anywhere in his early 20s.