24 réponses à ce sujet

[Kacynski]

Hi there,

I have countless (ok, about 7 or 8) playthroughs allready, but I never managed to go for the "evil" decisions so far. They just do not seem to make any sense to me RP wise. In both KotoR titles I was quite happy to go for Sith in my second playthrough, as it made sense to me in that setting. An outright evil Warden does not appeal to me and does not seem to fit the story.

So, I would be interested in your point, what makes the evil decision reasonable or rational. I don´t want to RP a just bad, evil person, I´d like to explore the dark path by reason.

Let´s look at the main choices one could make:

1. Defiling the ashes
This I can see reasonable for a PC that either hates the chantry (a Mage probably) or a PC that doesn´t care at all (a dwarf) and want´s a free ride with Kolgrim and the Dragon. One evil decision I could see to make sense.

2. Killing Connor or Isolde
This also makes sense for a char that does not believe to have enough time to go the Mage Circle and be back in time to rescue Connor. If there is a feeling of urge one would probably decide to immediatly end the threat of the demon.

3. Let the Werewolves attack the Dalish Elves
Doesn´t make any sense whatsoever to me. Beside the pure enjoyment of destruction and revenge what should be the reason behind it? Would like to hear some ideas here.

4. Siding with Branka
She did go completly nuts and obsessed with the anvil, sacrificing all of her people and more so even let the women of her house transformed to produce more darkspawn. Will she even be able to use the anvil in her state of mind? Also you get to fight golems before the encounter with her and Carridin and they are not overly impressive (would be maybe different if the golems would be like the one fire golem in Awakening ...) so I do not really see a point to side with her. At this point there is clearly one choice missing, that is first fight Branka and then choose to not destroy the anvil and force Carridin to make more golems, but the game doesn´t let you do this ...
Again would like to hear some opinions, why one would side with Branka.

5. Bhelen and Harrowmont
I just list it here, but this is no "good/evil" decision for me, just choosing between two more or less bad choices ...

6. Siding with the Templar
I do not have all the options in mind you have at the end at the top of the tower. Especially not what Irving has to tell you. But I allways got the impression, that Irving is not possessed by demons yet, thus there is really no point for me to kill him. Uldred has him captive and that wouldn´t be the case if he would be possessed allready, so really no reason here for me to kill Irving.

7. The landsmeet
I have yet to figure out for myself what the evil decision is at the landsmeet 
Although so far Loghain failed to survive the landsmeet in any of my playthroughs. I can´t stand his rantings and his self - rightousness. And he *did* bad things to his people and Ferelden.

Would really like to hear some ideas on reasonable evil (call it lawful evil) charcter stories. I would like to unlock the missing achievements, but without a RP background made up, that works for me I just can´t get myself to do some of the choices mentioned above.

[Rogue Eagle]

2. CBF. only reason connor or isolde die. quickest solution is the best for me.



4. I think the appeals supposed to come from the potential power you might have access to. Perhaps more for the 'necessary evil' kind of role players.



5. I think Bhelen is considered the more 'evil' of candidates as he orders the execution of his opponent the moment he gets in power and if you side with Harrowmont he tries to kill you all in the senate.



6. I sided with templars on my first runthrough because i found the tower part of the mages quest frustrating.



7. the more evil decision is to go against alistairs wishes and make loghain a grey warden. also putting queen anora on the throne by herself ends badly.

[Elhanan]

I have started one Mage Warden that will be selfish based; not really power hungry. He is played as nearly as duplicitous as Loghain, based mostly on having high Coersion. He does not need to pick the cruel dialogue choices, as this may not always reap the largest rewards. So he has a silver tongue, and will attempt to garnish as much lucre as is possible.



In answer to the above examples. defiling the Ashes gains nothing for him, so he will skip this option. Same with killing Conner and many of the other options listed, as it does not benefit the Warden. The one I might choose is to save the Anvil, but will have to research this option a bit more.

[LyudmilaKatzen]

You can actually side with the templars without killing Irving. If you keep pushing the idea that there might be blood mages left in the tower, Irving will agree to be confined for the safety of all.

I can see an anti-human elf defiling the ashes as well, there's certainly plenty of options to criticize/dismiss human relgion as an elf.

I don't really see the point of killing the Dalish myself. IIRC the Lady of the Forest implies that she knows it won't break the curse, it's solely for revenge. And at the end of it, the curse is still not broken, the werewolves have had their revenge but they are still cursed.

Modifié par LyudmilaKatzen, 06 mai 2010 - 05:03 .

[JosieJ]

4. Siding with Branka:  You could be swayed by her argument that the golems are necessary to defend Orzammar.  Yes, they didn't impress you, but you're The Warden: nothing can stand before you!

6. As LyudmilaKatzen pointed out, it's not necessary to fight anybody to side with the Templars.  At the end, when you've defeated Uldred and taken Irving back to Greagoir, just agree with Cullen that the mages might unknowingly be harboring demons or what have you. Irving will meekly agree.  Even Wynne doesn't object at that point--in fact, you'll receive approval from her (as long as you're polite), not lose it!

7. Not only is the more evil decision to make Loghain a Warden against Alistair's wishes, as Rogue Eagle pointed out, but it's even more evil to do that to a hardened Alistair, then have Anora execute him when he refuses to swear fealty to her.  However, the more pragmatic decision is to get Anora and a hardened Alistair to agree to marry, and spare Loghain as the sacrificial goat for the Archdemon so that neither you nor Alistair has to die but neither you nor he has to do Morrigan's dark ritual, either.  That might work better for a female Warden who, even though Alistair is pissed off at her, still considers him a friend and doesn't want to ask him to sleep with someone he hates.  A male Warden, of course, will always have the option of simply sleeping with her himself; this is perhaps the most pragmatic choice of all: you get your revenge on Loghain, and neither you nor Alistair has to die killing the AD. 

Modifié par JosieJ, 06 mai 2010 - 05:54 .

[Andros_Hanarak]

Kacynski wrote...

Hi there,

I have countless (ok, about 7 or 8) playthroughs allready, but I never managed to go for the "evil" decisions so far. They just do not seem to make any sense to me RP wise. In both KotoR titles I was quite happy to go for Sith in my second playthrough, as it made sense to me in that setting. An outright evil Warden does not appeal to me and does not seem to fit the story.

So, I would be interested in your point, what makes the evil decision reasonable or rational. I don´t want to RP a just bad, evil person, I´d like to explore the dark path by reason.

Let´s look at the main choices one could make:

1. Defiling the ashes
This I can see reasonable for a PC that either hates the chantry (a Mage probably) or a PC that doesn´t care at all (a dwarf) and want´s a free ride with Kolgrim and the Dragon. One evil decision I could see to make sense.

I did this with my human hating Dalish Elf, The chantry burned his lands 700 years ago, well Andraste's ashes will be my payback today

2. Killing Connor or Isolde
This also makes sense for a char that does not believe to have enough time to go the Mage Circle and be back in time to rescue Connor. If there is a feeling of urge one would probably decide to immediatly end the threat of the demon.

With my DE, I had visited the circle first and sided with the Templars, you save Irving but when you reach Gregoir, Irving surrenders himself to the templars and I assume he gets executed. So it was easy killing Connor for me on this run with my DE. No mages, no fade visiting.

4. Siding with Branka
She did go completly nuts and obsessed with the anvil, sacrificing all of her people and more so even let the women of her house transformed to produce more darkspawn. Will she even be able to use the anvil in her state of mind? Also you get to fight golems before the encounter with her and Carridin and they are not overly impressive (would be maybe different if the golems would be like the one fire golem in Awakening ...) so I do not really see a point to side with her. At this point there is clearly one choice missing, that is first fight Branka and then choose to not destroy the anvil and force Carridin to make more golems, but the game doesn´t let you do this ...
Again would like to hear some opinions, why one would side with Branka.

My DE does not like dwarves in general, whatever happens to them is of no consequence to my inmediate needs so Branka was my choice along with Harrowmont for their King

I have not finished this playthrough yet, it is actually my 11 run through Origins and my first "Evil" character. The above were the reasons I chose to do and I thought it would be better if I played a CEF so thats what I am doing now too.

[Kalcalan]

It really depends on the character you play.



An over zealous Templar adept of the Chantry would probably rescue the ashes but destroy the mages. This character would probably kill Genetivi to protect the Ashes from the rabble. That character would probably have no problems with killing Connor.



A smart but evil character may side with Korgrim but still not destroy the Ashes. If indeed the Ashes limit the High Dragon's power it would be very short sighted to help the dragon. Besides betraying Korgrim makes killing the cultist leader much easier.



You can kill Wynne and still side with the Mages. Going for the "bad" ending is not necessarilly the only way to play an evil character.



I had a blast with my last character who sided with Bhelen (knowing all along that Bhelen was a villain) and betrayed him for Harrowmont at the last minute. Having made a deal with Branka made Harrowmont's thanks even more ironic since Harrowont didn't know what sacrifices the golem army would require.

[Jalem001]

4. Siding with Branka

She did go completly nuts and obsessed with the anvil, sacrificing all of her people and more so even let the women of her house transformed to produce more darkspawn. Will she even be able to use the anvil in her state of mind? Also you get to fight golems before the encounter with her and Carridin and they are not overly impressive (would be maybe different if the golems would be like the one fire golem in Awakening ...) so I do not really see a point to side with her. At this point there is clearly one choice missing, that is first fight Branka and then choose to not destroy the anvil and force Carridin to make more golems, but the game doesn´t let you do this ...

Again would like to hear some opinions, why one would side with Branka.

The Dwarves are a dying people who continually have to fight the Darkspawn. Reduced from a great empire to two cities, one of which was thought lost.



They will be wiped out if something doesn't change. Golems are that change.



Where I think they messed up is by not allowing the players a chance to influence how the anvil is used. For example: A good character would prefer if it were volunteer based only, or better yet why not allow the Legion of the Dead to transform themselves? They're already sworn to death and they're already an autonomous organization, so without the control rods or whatever you keep them a force purely dedicated to destroying Darkspawn.



Overall keeping the anvil is a pragmatic choice. Good players hope the power is used responsibility, and risk that against the extinction of the Dwarves. Bad players simply could care less, its a means to an end. A promise of Golems reinforcing them against the Darkspawn, or perhaps just another thorn in the Darkspawn's side.

[brewmaster]

3. Maybe an evil character believes that the werewolves are more useful in the upcoming battle than Cammen and his Dalish friends.

[shadowdragon8190]

1. My DE was angry at the chantry and wanted payback too

2. He didn't do the mage circle so that option wasn't available. And Isolde was a lil b**** when we first met so I had no regrets >

3. He found out what the elves have done and found it cruel and disgusting that one man would hold a grudge for that long. He might be a Dalish Elf himself, but that doesn't give the Dalish a free ride to do whatever they want.

4. Hmmm let Branka die and have the anvil destroyed or let her live and use it to defeat the archdemon. Well I'm glad Shale wasn't there because I would rather have rock than squishies

5. Harrowmont was a wuss. Bhelen was a tyrant. No good choice there. But I still needed the dwarves just in case something else comes up so Bhelen would help me out the most.

6. Hmmm abominations running around. Blood mages running around. Possessed people running around. There are too many enemies for my character to consider an individual as a friend. Better to have no enemies or friends than to have friends and an enemy who could prove to be a threat.

7. I killed loghain. I wasn't going to give him the honor of being a Warden. There really is no good option unless you chose to do the dark ritual, which I did. And because I did it would mean that Loghain wouldn't have died so I had to kill him on the spot.

[Daewan]

Kacynski wrote...

(snippity)
Would really like to hear some ideas on reasonable evil (call it lawful evil) charcter stories. I would like to unlock the missing achievements, but without a RP background made up, that works for me I just can´t get myself to do some of the choices mentioned above.

If you're having problems being just plain evil, try being a narrow-minded bigot.

1. Defiling the ashes
An ultra-conservative religious Chantry believer would destroy the ashes in order to preserve the sanctity and mystery of Andraste.  Note that you can do this and STILL kill the cultists, if you're a big enough jerk.  Otherwise, her burial site will become a playground for irreligious mockers to come and gawk at her 'ashes.'  Destroy them, kill the blasphemer Genitivi to keep it secret, and tell a hardened Leliana to grow up and stop believing in such nonsense.  Or kill her.

2. Killing Connor or Isolde
If you side with the Templars, this isn't an avoidable option.  However, killing demons is still fun and profitable.  Connor deserves to die; he's tainted with magic.  Isolde offers to sacrifice herself, which is great, but she's also the mother of demonspawn as well as a filthy Orlesian harlot.  Kill her.

3. Let the Werewolves attack the Dalish Elves
The werewolves are humans, who have been punished by the evil magics of the elves, specifically their leader, who is an evil blood mage.  Kill them.  They are all tainted.  Plus, with no more victims, the cursed werewolves will eventually die out.

4. Siding with Branka
Why wouldn't you want an army of golems to fight with you?  Who cares that they have to kill Dwarves to power them?  Have you seen the pitiful squalor the Casteless live in?  This would be a huge boon for them.  They could serve their kingdom, finally, and perhaps a small bounty could be paid to the surviving family members.  The Dwarves could push back their borders and retake some of the tunnels, and improve security in Orzammar.  That would increase trade, and everyone benefits!  As for Branka being mad, well, her entire clan obeyed her willingly.  Who are you to judge?  She's still a Paragon.

5. Bhelen and Harrowmont
Bhelen appears to be more evil, superficially.  He uses poison, spying, and cheating.  They are much of a muchness, though.

6. Siding with the Templar
As others have suggested, just fight your way through and then agree with the paranoid Templar.  Irving and the survivors get locked up for their own good.  You can be nice to Wynne to make her agree, or you can...kill her.

7. The landsmeet
Most evil and heartless?  Betray that party member who has been with you since the beginning by having Anora execute him and taking Loghain with you.  Then, backstab Anora by getting Loghain killed with the Archdemon.  Everybody wins!  Too bad there's no way to kill her too and plunge Ferelden into a civil war.

[Rhys Cordelle]

The thing is, being evil is about being selfish. Doing something "just for the sake of causing chaos/ doing the wrong thing", without any personal gain from doing so, is psychotic, not evil. So essentially, if you want to play a character that chooses the worst possible action every time, then roleplay them as a psycho.

Modifié par Rhys Cordelle, 06 mai 2010 - 11:18 .

[Kacynski]

Hi,



there´s a lot of good comments allready, thanks a lot.

My point was maybe not completely clear in the beginning, I don´t want to play evil just for the sake of being evil. Actually I want a playthrough with the so called "evil" options without feeling evil myself - i.e. having a good and understandable reason for each particular choice.

But you gave me allready some thoughts on that, which I can use.



Just some quick questions: Can I still make Shale's quest in Cadash Thaig if I side with Branka? I.e. will the golem registry still trigger her quest? As far as I know, as long as you don´t bring her, you can convince her to stay with you. Is there a way to keep her, even she´s present with Carridin and Branka? (I don't think so).



I can see now some pragmatic approaches to most of the choices, especially if you do first side with the Templars, there is no way for a super-good ending with Connor and Isolde.



Just for the werewolves, I still find a hard time to convince them to fight the Dalish. There is basically just one man to be blamed, and during the whole discussion he surrenders and let his hatred go ... I fail to see a pragmatic or reasonable approach to wipe the Dalish camp.

[Jalem001]

Just for the werewolves, I still find a hard time to convince them to fight the Dalish. There is basically just one man to be blamed, and during the whole discussion he surrenders and let his hatred go ... I fail to see a pragmatic or reasonable approach to wipe the Dalish camp.

You're a strict follower of the Chant, and have no love for the Dalish and their false gods. All they will do is upset the balance of things and likely try to start a war later, when they have more numbers.



Or you could simply view the Werewolves as a more powerful ally.

[Andros_Hanarak]

As for Shale, in one of my runs I got Shale way after I had finished Orzammar and the Deep Roads. On that run I managed to get Shale to explore Cadish Thaig and she remembered her past. I was afraid I would not be able to do that mission for her but it turns out I could trigger it.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

Keep in mind for the werewolves one that you warn Zathrian that you'll kill them all if he doesn't end the curse. He says he never will, so you proceed to kill them all.

So I view it like this; Zathrian has cursed an entire group of people to suffer as beasts who can never live with their nature and can never be accepted by others. He did this because of what SOME humans did to his son and daughter, not all. You offer the werewolves the strength they need to force Zathrian to end the curse, or suffer the consequences. He doesn't end it.

Modifié par Fish_Eye_McGee, 07 mai 2010 - 02:03 .

[JosieJ]

Kacynski wrote...

Can I still make Shale's quest in Cadash Thaig if I side with Branka? I.e. will the golem registry still trigger her quest? As far as I know, as long as you don´t bring her, you can convince her to stay with you. Is there a way to keep her, even she´s present with Carridin and Branka? (I don't think so).

If Shale's present when you choose between Caridin and Branka, she will always turn against you if you side with Branka.  However, if you leave her back at camp, then lie about what happened to Caridin, she'll stay with you.

Whatever you do with Branka and Caridin, you can still start Shale's quest without her being present in Anvil of the Void.  Just talk to her after the quest is over and she'll "remember" the location of Cadash Thaig. 

[Kacynski]

Thanks a lot folks, for the good ideas coming.

I just started a CEF playthrough, as I thought she would feel angry enough after her origin to go with the darker decisions. It turned out, that killing the whole palace and Vaughn in the end cooled her mind pretty much.

Especially when Shianni told me: "Make us proud of you" in the end, I just can´t help - she will not be "evil". Allthough she will cease to bring any men in her party and will be most likely travelling with Dog, Shale and Morrigan - and she will definitly harden Leliana (which I never did before). I´ll see how it turns out and how Morrigan and Shale may rub of on her decisions.



I guess I need to go through the dwarven origins one more time, to see if one of them will have the mindset to pragmatically side with Branka and the werewolves.

[Tindl]

I tried several times to play an 'evil' char - seems I'm genetically unable to do so :s Every time, I bail out right at the beginning, and end up being polite, otherwise I feel terrible.

Imo, though, the most evil thing to do is have Loghain in your party, and leave Alistair to go free - he will forever have that in his memory, whilst Loghain lives as a hero. I did do that one, just to get the achievement. I felt awful .. poor, poor Alistair

[Mlai00]

Oh boy, another "How do I evil?" thread.

Sure you can feel reasonable when siding with the Werewolves, and Branka.

1. Werewolves: So the Lady's plan is to talk to Zathrian, and try to convince him to free the Lycans. LMAO. C'mon, talk? To Zathrian? My chara doesn't have game meta-knowledge. She can only read ppl as they are, and anybody can tell Zathrian can't be talked to. To have any chance at a "negotiation", you need an army at your back, and give Z an ultimatum: Do the right thing, or face utter annihilation. He chose utter annihilation. His decision, not mine.

2. Branka: At first, being a DC I thought I'd eventually side with Caridin, because I know exactly where the "volunteers" would come from if I preserve the anvil. But now, I'm not sure. I'll probably side with Branka. Dust Town really doesn't deserve saving -- it grinds good ppl down, and births evil and misery. All the people I actually care about are out of Dust Town now... so, just nuke it. Do some good with those "poor unfortunate souls."

[Kacynski]

Even in my first playthrough, without any metagaming knowledge or spoilers, I tried to talk to Zathrian, when you meet him at the ruins. As it turns out he doesn't listen and you have to fight him. But you don't have to fight the whole Dalish camp. If he would refuse to talk with me alltogether and send me back to the werewolves without coming with me ... then, I think I might talt the werewolves into attacking. But as the plot unfolds, I really do not see any point in attacking the camp.

Siding with Branka, may be a viable choice for a dwarven noble so, taking the argument from above a little further- at least there would be some use for dust town, they could do something for dwarven community, I guess.

Modifié par Kacynski, 09 mai 2010 - 02:31 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

I think the most evil thing you can do in the lands meet is become king with anora , execute Alistar then do the dark ritual.



Although i dont think siding with branka is entirely evil in times of blights everyone must sacrfices to save ferelden or any nation from total destruction although branka is the more evil choice.

[Sammy0721]

No to mention, not saving Redcliffe. You need to sneak out of dodge, and find the Bann Teagan all alone in the Chantry ... pure evil (or like Mory and Sten say "not the main mission") My templar also lets the mages turn into abomination (sharing the same mind set as Cullen ... mages deserve their fate and why use the litany) and has to kill Connor since Jowan was set free.



Some other decisions: Kill or let Owen commit suicide - Farsong and for any archer/ranger .. pure evil with a benefit the best bow in the game.



City elf - I picked the stash the money Vaughn option and got so much hate and money (40 hidden) ,.. 40 more from the second Vaughn encounter and revenge killing, and felt no guilt about getting more constitution from Caledrius since I was kicked out my own house and elf shop despite killing/ running off slavers.

[Avilia]

On this playthrough I tried to make the "evil" decisions in some cases.



I started with my PC's mindset which was "I'm an elf and a mage so everyone hates me". She dislikes humans and nearly everyone else. (She's a blood mage as well - go team)



So,



1. Defiled the ashes - why not? Silly human religion.



2. Killed Isolde - easy choice - her friend (Jowan) gets brownie points for helping out and she gets a boon from the demon she didn't kill ;-)



3. Killed the werewolves - Zathrien was obssesed but he's an elf and those werewolves were human



4. Sided with the Templars - they seemd a more useful army and she was happy to see those spineless mages die.



5. Bhelen on the throne - politics isn't her concern - ending the blight is. He's a stronger leader for what she needs



6. Destroyed the anvil of the void - as an elf she won't see anyone enslaved



7. Oh! Intimidated the Revered mother in Lothering for the key to Sten's cage. That is the funniest Alistair dialogue in the game.



That's all I can remember - some decisions I couldn't change but it was a nice challenge keeping Alistair as my tank and balance his approval. I finished at 97+ woo!

[DrAbysmal]

You can justify the werewolf decision in-game by telling Zathrian and others "I think a werewolf army will be useful." You're basically selling them out because it will result in gaining a strong ally (and I would argue that I got more mileage out of the wolves during the final battle than the Dalish, who did pitiful damage to the archdemon for all the bluster I heard about them being the best ally during the fight). The epilogue does a nice job of making you feel bad about it though, as the wolves go crazy and attack all of their neighbors, eventually driven into hiding again once armies start to act against them.