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[Tilarta]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, probably since Hammerhead and Kasumi came out.

Soldier seems to be an underrepresented class in ME2.

To start with, Squadmates.

Counting the core Squadmates only, 1 out of 10 is a soldier.
In ME1, it was 2 out of 5.
In terms of ratio, ME1 - 40%, ME2 -10%.

At the very least, they should have provided one extra squadmate (in addition to Grunt) who was an actual soldier, so a team of 3 Soldiers should be possible.

Now, let's review the upgrades.




As you can see, both of these ability pools recieves 3 kinds of upgrades, in Cooldown, Damage and Duration.

Combat Powers have none of these bonuses.

And all the new armor pieces they're adding as DLC are for Biotics and Techs.


It's starting to look a lot like they didn't really prioritize Soldier in relation to Techs and Biotics.

Modifié par Tilarta, 06 mai 2010 - 09:23 .

[Arawn-Loki]

Tilarta wrote...

I've been thinking about this for a while now, probably since Hammerhead and Kasumi came out.

Soldier seems to be an underrepresented class in ME2.

To start with, Squadmates.

Counting the core Squadmates only, 1 out of 10 is a soldier.
In ME1, it was 2 out of 5.
In terms of ratio, ME1 - 40%, ME2 -10%.

At the very least, they should have provided one extra squadmate (in addition to Grunt) who was an actual soldier, so a team of 3 Soldiers should be possible.

Now, let's review the upgrades.




As you can see, both of these ability pools recieves 3 kinds of upgrades, in Cooldown, Damage and Duration.

Combat Powers have none of these bonuses.

And all the new armor pieces they're adding as DLC are for Biotics and Techs.


It's starting to look a lot like they didn't really prioritize Soldier in relation to Techs and Biotics.

Soldiers are a reach-out for 40-year old Halo-ers and Gears of War-ers who have Xbox 360s and like playing first-person shooters. Aka, for people who dislike or don't understand the RPG aspects of Mass Effect (like Upgrades). They are a shooting-specific class, which shoots ... a lot.

I think the main assumption is that many --> most Soldier players don't want to bother with powers or upgrades.

In essence, they are a trap to trick our dads into thinking Mass Effect plays like Halo.

To be fair, gun upgrades are a bigger help to Soldiers than other classes because they have more/better guns.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 06 mai 2010 - 09:32 .

[mosor]

Arawn-Loki wrote...


Soldiers are a reach-out for 40-year old Halo-ers and Gears of War-ers who have Xbox 360s and like playing first-person shooters. Aka, for people who dislike or don't understand the RPG aspects of Mass Effect (like Upgrades). They are a shooting-specific class, which shoots ... a lot.

I think the main assumption is that many --> most Soldier players don't want to bother with powers or upgrades.

In essence, they are a trap to trick our dads into thinking Mass Effect plays like Halo.

To be fair, gun upgrades are a bigger help to Soldiers than other classes because they have more/better guns.

No. soldiers kick ass period. I'm not a 40 year old shooter fan. My games of choice are RPG's but soldiers are a strong class. Their main ability has a 3 second cooldown and AR is probably the most overpowered ability in the game. They don't need extra cooldowns or extra tech or biotic damage. They're just awesome

I play a soldier not because I don't want to bother with powers or upgrades. i get bonus powers and I have squadmate powers. I like soldier because it's the most versitle class, the most powerful weapon damage dealing class, and I get to chose 3 unique weapons on the collector ship. Each one of those weapons will give me a different gaming experience and strategies to use.

RPG wise, I like the fact that I'm just a regular human taking on the biggest threat to the galaxy with just my guns, my wits and tactics rather than using magic.

[cruc1al]

I think soldiers play just like most other classes for most of the time, in that a major part of the game is spent shooting stuff. But just because you have no active abilities apart from AR and the less useful concussive shot doesn't mean soldier gameplay is somehow mindless or doesn't involve tactics. Soldier is a very tactical class; for optimum gameplay, you have to be able to decide which weapon to use, which ammo power to use, how to use AR, which weapon to use with which ammo power and in which situation, and how to allocate points. The variations are many, and those are just the basics.

[Katya Nadanova]

For starters, their was only one solider in ME, and their doesn't need to be 2 in ME 2. Now for the upgrades. Weapon upgrades? The solider class is all about weapon and ammo diversity. The reason their are tech an biotic cooldown/duration/damage upgrades is because techs and biotic classes relay on those talents in combat. The solider just has ammo powers, switches weapons, uses concussive shot once or twice and occasionally uses adrenaline rush in combat. Their is no need for duration/damage/cooldown upgrades for combat abilities.

edit:  Forgot Zaeed he was a solider too.

Modifié par BristowJ, 06 mai 2010 - 09:59 .

[Arawn-Loki]

mosor wrote...

Arawn-Loki wrote...


Soldiers are a reach-out for 40-year old Halo-ers and Gears of War-ers who have Xbox 360s and like playing first-person shooters. Aka, for people who dislike or don't understand the RPG aspects of Mass Effect (like Upgrades). They are a shooting-specific class, which shoots ... a lot.

I think the main assumption is that many --> most Soldier players don't want to bother with powers or upgrades.

In essence, they are a trap to trick our dads into thinking Mass Effect plays like Halo.

To be fair, gun upgrades are a bigger help to Soldiers than other classes because they have more/better guns.

No. soldiers kick ass period. I'm not a 40 year old shooter fan. My games of choice are RPG's but soldiers are a strong class. Their main ability has a 3 second cooldown and AR is probably the most overpowered ability in the game. They don't need extra cooldowns or extra tech or biotic damage. They're just awesome

I play a soldier not because I don't want to bother with powers or upgrades. i get bonus powers and I have squadmate powers. I like soldier because it's the most versitle class, the most powerful weapon damage dealing class, and I get to chose 3 unique weapons on the collector ship. Each one of those weapons will give me a different gaming experience and strategies to use.

RPG wise, I like the fact that I'm just a regular human taking on the biggest threat to the galaxy with just my guns, my wits and tactics rather than using magic.

I didn't say Soldiers aren't strong, or that every player who plays a Soldier doesn't like RPGs, or that an RPG-centric Soldier character is inconceivable. In fact, they have to be strong in their own right, or people who don't like bothering with upgrades or powers wouldn't be able to play Mass Effect on any difficulty mode. However, Mass Effect's design is a compromise between RPG elements and Shooter elements, and the Soldier is the class most outfitted for the shooters. That's inescapable. They have fewer powers than any other class and they are far better at shooting.

If the Soldier was dependent on class upgrades like the Biotics or the Techs, then that would force everybody who plays Mass Effect to do upgrades. Big turn off for the Halo-ers.

No one on this forum, but of the millions who play Mass Effect, some people find the interactive drama or RPG aspects of it frustrating, time consuming, and boring.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 06 mai 2010 - 09:49 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

Nope it's just that they start strong by having more health, access to all weapons but smg & later any of the three collector ship weapons.
They also have what could be considered the cheapest power in the game Adrenaline Rush which is the only power which gets a cooldown bonus as you level it i think.
Having all this already if they also got extra upgrades they would become very OP compared to the other classes:?

Edit.
ME2 has 2 Soldiers Zaeed & Grunt both fit the type i'd say(nvm i failed at reading OP)

Modifié par SmokeyNinjas, 06 mai 2010 - 09:53 .

[mosor]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

I didn't say Soldiers aren't strong, or that every player who plays a Soldier doesn't like RPGs, or that an RPG-centric Soldier character is inconceivable. In fact, they have to be strong in their own right, or people who don't like bothering with upgrades or powers wouldn't be able to play Mass Effect on any difficulty mode. However, Mass Effect's design is a compromise between RPG elements and Shooter elements, and the Soldier is the class most outfitted for the shooters. That's inescapable. They have few powers than any other class and they are far better at shooting.

Every RPG has a warrior. Every warrior has acess to most weapons, has a ton of health and usually gets more attacks with those weapons (In ME2 thats done with Adrenaline rush). So how is the soldier class different from any other warrior in other RPG's? Soldier's and warriors are mainstays in RPG games. It's just that because this is a futuristic RPG warriors use guns, hence it's more like shooter. Still a lot of warrior lovers in RPG gamer communites, and this class caters to them.

[swk3000]

I had a similar idea, but was quickly corrected. Soldiers have all the upgrades they need in the weapon upgrades, as weapons are how they inflict all their damage. For example, the Widow does a base 368.3 damage. All 5 Sniper Rifle Damage upgrades add 50% damage. Miranda adds another 15% with the proper Passive Evolution, and Commando adds another 15%. Finally, Adrenaline Rush adds another 100% or 140%. That's a grand total of an extra 180% or 220%. That works out to either 1031.24 or 1178.56 damage.



If you want to use another weapon, let's look at the Vindicator (base damage is 36.8). Final damage works out to either 102.2 or 117.76 damage per shot. Since the Vindicator fires a 3-round burst, that would equal out to 306.6 or 353.28 damage.



Soldiers actually have a grand total of 33 possible upgrades (34 with Zaeed's DLC), compared to the 7 that power-oriented classes get.



Are Soldiers are unwanted? I think not.

[Arawn-Loki]

mosor wrote...

Arawn-Loki wrote...

I didn't say Soldiers aren't strong, or that every player who plays a Soldier doesn't like RPGs, or that an RPG-centric Soldier character is inconceivable. In fact, they have to be strong in their own right, or people who don't like bothering with upgrades or powers wouldn't be able to play Mass Effect on any difficulty mode. However, Mass Effect's design is a compromise between RPG elements and Shooter elements, and the Soldier is the class most outfitted for the shooters. That's inescapable. They have few powers than any other class and they are far better at shooting.

Every RPG has a warrior. Every warrior has acess to most weapons, has a ton of health and usually gets more attacks with those weapons (In ME2 thats done with Adrenaline rush). So how is the soldier class different from any other warrior in other RPG's? Soldier's and warriors are mainstays in RPG games. It's just that because this is a futuristic RPG warriors use guns, hence it's more like shooter. Still a lot of warrior lovers in RPG gamer communites, and this class caters to them.

That's beside the point. Mass Effect's design and historical context is different from those of other RPGs; again, it has many Shooter elements. That's the outstanding issue. It is an Xbox --> Xbox 360 game (well ME1 was, ME2 was developed concurrently for PC and Xbox 360). One of the biggest Xbox 360 demographics is middle-aged Halo-ers who are hyper-gameplay and zero-story fans. Mass Effect isn't really the best game for them, but their 50-60$ is as good as anybody's as far as EA is concerned.

Bioware's consumer base are all RPGers because Bioware makes story-driven RPGs. Has since its inception. Mass Effect's comprise between shooting and RPGing is an deliberate market outreach; some of those Halo-ers might find the gameplay good enough that the extended custscenes (which you can skip anyway) are tolerable. Others might actually start liking the characters and sci-fi story. Either way, Bioware gets way more money.

Even in its advertising, Mass Effect was aggressively marketed as kick-ass shooter game with powerful sidekicks.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 06 mai 2010 - 09:58 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Does Zaeed not count on the Soldier Board? Is that why Grunt is the Only Soldier™ in Mass Effect 2? Because from where I'm standing Zaeed looks pretty soldierly. Garrus behaves a lot like a Soldier (Concussive Shot, ammunition skill, assault rifle), but with the bonus skill of Overload.

And I concur that Soldiers don't play all that much differently than other classes. It's just that they don't need to arc powers in combat to kill their enemies, is all.

[cruc1al]

swk3000 wrote...

For example, the Widow does a base 368.3 damage. All 5 Sniper Rifle Damage upgrades add 50% damage. Miranda adds another 15% with the proper Passive Evolution, and Commando adds another 15%. Finally, Adrenaline Rush adds another 100% or 140%. That's a grand total of an extra 180% or 220%. That works out to either 1031.24 or 1178.56 damage..

We don't know how the damage bonuses are applied to base damage. It could be like you say, that all damage bonuses are added together before multipying the base damage; or it could be that each multiplier multiplies the product of the previous multiplication.

E.g. 368.3 * 1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 2 or 2.4 = 1461 or 1753, as opposed to 1031 to 1179. Furthermore, AR might function by giving a damage bonus similar to ammo powers, in that it adds 100% of the base damage to the total damage, rather than multiplying the base damage by 100%.

Just a side note

[cruc1al]

swk3000 wrote...

Soldiers actually have a grand total of 33 possible upgrades (34 with Zaeed's DLC), compared to the 7 that power-oriented classes get.

Power oriented classes also get 14-21 weapon upgrades depending on class. Sentinels get 14 power upgrades, as opposed to 7 for other power oriented classes.

Modifié par cruc1al, 06 mai 2010 - 10:03 .

[swk3000]

cruc1al wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

For example, the Widow does a base 368.3 damage. All 5 Sniper Rifle Damage upgrades add 50% damage. Miranda adds another 15% with the proper Passive Evolution, and Commando adds another 15%. Finally, Adrenaline Rush adds another 100% or 140%. That's a grand total of an extra 180% or 220%. That works out to either 1031.24 or 1178.56 damage..

We don't know how the damage bonuses are applied to base damage. It could be like you say, that all damage bonuses are added together before multipying the base damage; or it could be that each multiplier multiplies the product of the previous multiplication.

E.g. 368.3 * 1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 2 or 2.4 = 1461 or 1753, as opposed to 1031 to 1179. Furthermore, AR might function by giving a damage bonus similar to ammo powers, in that it adds 100% of the base damage to the total damage, rather than multiplying the base damage by 100%.

Just a side note

You're right, we don't. I'd love to say that's how it works, but I don't. I'd like to think it gets the point across, though.

[Malanek]

All the squad members in ME are basically hybrids. None conform to the 6 classes available to the PC. Soldiers are IMO the most powerful class so no I don't think it is neglected nor unwanted.

[thepiebaker]

it makes the soldier more challenging to play as, the way i like it

[FoFoZem]

Arawn-Loki wrote...



Soldiers are a reach-out for 40-year old Halo-ers and Gears of War-ers who have Xbox 360s and like playing first-person shooters. Aka, for people who dislike or don't understand the RPG aspects of Mass Effect (like Upgrades). They are a shooting-specific class, which shoots ... a lot.

I think the main assumption is that many --> most Soldier players don't want to bother with powers or upgrades.

In essence, they are a trap to trick our dads into thinking Mass Effect plays like Halo.

To be fair, gun upgrades are a bigger help to Soldiers than other classes because they have more/bett guns.

That's not fair. I am a huge RPGer, who norrmally shies away from first-person shooters, but the Soldier can be, and is, a very tactical class.

[cruc1al]

swk3000 wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

For example, the Widow does a base 368.3 damage. All 5 Sniper Rifle Damage upgrades add 50% damage. Miranda adds another 15% with the proper Passive Evolution, and Commando adds another 15%. Finally, Adrenaline Rush adds another 100% or 140%. That's a grand total of an extra 180% or 220%. That works out to either 1031.24 or 1178.56 damage..

We don't know how the damage bonuses are applied to base damage. It could be like you say, that all damage bonuses are added together before multipying the base damage; or it could be that each multiplier multiplies the product of the previous multiplication.

E.g. 368.3 * 1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 2 or 2.4 = 1461 or 1753, as opposed to 1031 to 1179. Furthermore, AR might function by giving a damage bonus similar to ammo powers, in that it adds 100% of the base damage to the total damage, rather than multiplying the base damage by 100%.

Just a side note

You're right, we don't. I'd love to say that's how it works, but I don't. I'd like to think it gets the point across, though.

To be honest, all the other classes get weapon upgrades and damage bonuses too; the only unique damage bonus to soldiers is AR. That's why I don't think it's a very persuasive argument to use weapon damage itself as what makes the soldier stand out. To me, the soldier is unique only partly because or the AR damage bonus, but equally because of the slowdown and increased accuracy, and less health damage, and higher health than other classes, and finally the fact that they have all ammo powers and all weapons bar the SMG available. Those are what provide the soldier with its unique tactical skillset; if it was just the soldier's damage output that was important, it'd be a boring class to play.

Modifié par cruc1al, 06 mai 2010 - 10:15 .

[mosor]

Arawn-Loki wrote...



That's beside the point. Mass Effect's design and historical context is different from those of other RPGs; again, it has many Shooter elements. That's the outstanding issue. It is an Xbox --> Xbox 360 game (well ME1 was, ME2 was developed concurrently for PC and Xbox 360). One of the biggest Xbox 360 demographics is middle-aged Halo-ers who are hyper-gameplay and zero-story fans. Mass Effect isn't really the best game for them, but their 50-60$ is as good as anybody's as far as EA is concerned.

Bioware's consumer base are all RPGers because Bioware makes story-driven RPGs. Has since its inception. Mass Effect's comprise between shooting and RPGing is an deliberate market outreach; some of those Halo-ers might find the gameplay good enough that the extended custscenes (which you can skip anyway) are tolerable. Others might actually start liking the characters and sci-fi story. Either way, Bioware gets way more money.

Even in its advertising, Mass Effect was aggressively marketed as kick-ass shooter game with powerful sidekicks.

Not necessarily a bad thing. I always shied away from shooters because I'm a terrible shot. ME2 made me more likely to try out a shooter. I'm sure ME also introduced a lot of shooter fans into RPG gaming. The gaming industry as a whole wins when you combine different genre's well. Could ME have been a better RPG? Sure. The game plays out more like a chose your own adventure movie rather than an RPG.

[Alamar2078]

cruc1al wrote...

I think soldiers play just like most other classes for most of the time, in that a major part of the game is spent shooting stuff. But just because you have no active abilities apart from AR and the less useful concussive shot doesn't mean soldier gameplay is somehow mindless or doesn't involve tactics. Soldier is a very tactical class; for optimum gameplay, you have to be able to decide which weapon to use, which ammo power to use, how to use AR, which weapon to use with which ammo power and in which situation, and how to allocate points. The variations are many, and those are just the basics.

Really??   My Soldier plays "nothing" like the last 3 classes I've played [Engineer, Adept, Vanguard].  Engineers & Adepts hang back and shoot occassionally.  Vanguard zips around like he's on crack.

On the other hand I [tactically] have to be as sharp or sharper with my Soldier than other classes because your margin of error is so low.  If you make a mistake and position yourself in the wrong spot then you're done ... you don't have enough crowd control or hypermovement to get away.  If you can't AR then run to better cover or use some sort of "sheild boost" you're sunk.

I don't think the powers are so much an issue as battlefield positioning, movements, commands have to be dead-on [on Insanity] or you'll get overwhelmed & need to reload or something equally as annoying.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 06 mai 2010 - 10:28 .

[Atmosfear3]

Zaeed, Garrus, and Grunt are all soldiers. Garrus is the one unique teammate that gets overload but aside from that they are all considered to be soldiers.

Modifié par Atmosfear3, 06 mai 2010 - 10:31 .

[mosor]

Alamar2078 wrote...


Really??   My Soldier plays "nothing" like the last 3 classes I've played [Engineer, Adept, Vanguard].  Engineers & Adepts hang back and shoot occassionally.  Vanguard zips around like he's on crack.

On the other hand I [tactically] have to be as sharp or sharper with my Soldier than other classes because your margin of error is so low.  If you make a mistake and position yourself in the wrong spot then you're done ... you don't have enough crowd control or hypermovement to get away.  If you can't AR then run to better cover or use some sort of "sheild boost" you're sunk.

.

You're sunk with any class if you have your pants down and your powers are under cooldown. At least AR has only a 3 second cooldown. It's better than any other classes special skill other than the engineer's combat drone. Even with all the upgrades and armor pieces.

[rplong]

First off there are two soldiers in ME2, Zaeed and Grunt. There is only one soldier in ME1, Ashley Williams.



Also, quit bringing up Garrus as a Soldier, he's an Infiltrator.

[cruc1al]

Well, techically there are no soldier teammates in ME2. Grunt is a Krogan Berserker. Zaeed is a Mercenary Veteran. And Garrus isn't an infiltrator, he's a Turian Agent (although Agent is one of infiltrator's specializations, so it may be correct to say Garrus is an infiltrator).

[Atmosfear3]

rplong wrote...

First off there are two soldiers in ME2, Zaeed and Grunt. There is only one soldier in ME1, Ashley Williams.

Also, quit bringing up Garrus as a Soldier, he's an Infiltrator.

Garrus is a soldier.

Turian Renegade
If it can be fired, Garrus knows how to use it. His weapon and power damage increases dramatically.

Turian Survivor
Long hours alone against impossible odds have conditioned Garrus' health, and kept his powers sharp.

I'd consider both of those descriptions to be soldiers.