112 réponses à ce sujet

[FoFoZem]

Yeah, honestly, with the new direction Mass Effect has taken, Soldier is probably the most represented class. The only problem is that combat powers are too powerful to give them upgrades

[OniGanon]

In videogame terms, a tank is anyone that draws the majority of enemy attention and can survive that attention. How they achieve this is unimportant.

[jaff00]

JaegerBane wrote...

jaff00 wrote...
'Arbitrary', rofl. I'm just curious where the need to CC arises as a soldier in a game where the vast majority of the gunfodder patiently sits behind cover waiting for the PC to make their red bars go down. Well, save for the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank or irritating geth hunter. The only use I've found for concussive shot is knocking someone/thing off a ledge resulting in a slightly quicker kill than simply gunning him/her/it down with AR on.

As I said, it is irrelevant if you think there are no situations in the game where CC is needed. The fact that they're displayed for all to see on youtube indicates the value of such an opinion, but nevertheless, the discussion here is regarding the skill itself, not your own crowing about how you don't need it.

Contrary to your backwardass interpretation, this isn't me tooting my
own horn. As I said aside from the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank
or irritating geth hunter, mobs just sit in cover and stick their
collective heads out now and then. It's not as though you ever get
bullrushed in this game. You stay in cover, use AR, left-click on a few
mobs, solved. So I'll ask again, where does CC come into play? People
like to throw those clever little acronyms around these days even when
it's totally not applicable.
In the time it takes you to whittle away an enemy's defenses for concussive shot to work, you can also just have triggered AR and dropped 'm outright along with his buddy on the left.

[cruc1al]

jaff00 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

jaff00 wrote...
'Arbitrary', rofl. I'm just curious where the need to CC arises as a soldier in a game where the vast majority of the gunfodder patiently sits behind cover waiting for the PC to make their red bars go down. Well, save for the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank or irritating geth hunter. The only use I've found for concussive shot is knocking someone/thing off a ledge resulting in a slightly quicker kill than simply gunning him/her/it down with AR on.

As I said, it is irrelevant if you think there are no situations in the game where CC is needed. The fact that they're displayed for all to see on youtube indicates the value of such an opinion, but nevertheless, the discussion here is regarding the skill itself, not your own crowing about how you don't need it.

Contrary to your backwardass interpretation, this isn't me tooting my
own horn. As I said aside from the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank
or irritating geth hunter, mobs just sit in cover and stick their
collective heads out now and then. It's not as though you ever get
bullrushed in this game. You stay in cover, use AR, left-click on a few
mobs, solved. So I'll ask again, where does CC come into play? People
like to throw those clever little acronyms around these days even when
it's totally not applicable.
In the time it takes you to whittle away an enemy's defenses for concussive shot to work, you can also just have triggered AR and dropped 'm outright along with his buddy on the left.

Even if CC is not something you have to do, it's something you benefit from doing, in terms of time and risk taken to defeat the enemy. ME2 can be finished with pure patience, but it's not as fun as finishing it with sharp efficiency. While I agree that concussive shot is totally redundant on a soldier, other forms of CC such as cryo ammo are perfectly viable.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 04:23 .

[cruc1al]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

rplong wrote...

First off there are two soldiers in ME2, Zaeed and Grunt. There is only one soldier in ME1, Ashley Williams.

Also, quit bringing up Garrus as a Soldier, he's an Infiltrator.

Garrus is a soldier.

Turian Renegade
If it can be fired, Garrus knows how to use it. His weapon and power damage increases dramatically.

Turian Survivor
Long hours alone against impossible odds have conditioned Garrus' health, and kept his powers sharp.

I'd consider both of those descriptions to be soldiers.

Turian Agent, an evolved form of Infiltrator.

[jaff00]

cruc1al wrote...

jaff00 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

jaff00 wrote...
'Arbitrary', rofl. I'm just curious where the need to CC arises as a soldier in a game where the vast majority of the gunfodder patiently sits behind cover waiting for the PC to make their red bars go down. Well, save for the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank or irritating geth hunter. The only use I've found for concussive shot is knocking someone/thing off a ledge resulting in a slightly quicker kill than simply gunning him/her/it down with AR on.

As I said, it is irrelevant if you think there are no situations in the game where CC is needed. The fact that they're displayed for all to see on youtube indicates the value of such an opinion, but nevertheless, the discussion here is regarding the skill itself, not your own crowing about how you don't need it.

Contrary to your backwardass interpretation, this isn't me tooting my
own horn. As I said aside from the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank
or irritating geth hunter, mobs just sit in cover and stick their
collective heads out now and then. It's not as though you ever get
bullrushed in this game. You stay in cover, use AR, left-click on a few
mobs, solved. So I'll ask again, where does CC come into play? People
like to throw those clever little acronyms around these days even when
it's totally not applicable.
In the time it takes you to whittle away an enemy's defenses for concussive shot to work, you can also just have triggered AR and dropped 'm outright along with his buddy on the left.

Even if CC is not something you have to do, it's something you benefit from doing, in terms of time and risk taken to defeat the enemy. ME2 can be finished with pure patience, but it's not as fun as finishing it with sharp efficiency. While I agree that concussive shot is totally redundant on a soldier, other forms of CC such as cryo ammo are perfectly viable.

So you're essentially saying that foregoing CC means you'll progress slower?  I must admit, I don't really get that. With cryo ammo, you get no damage bonus whatsoever, which, I reckon, translates to having to peck away at the defenses of your target instead of simply one-shotting them. (Talking soldier here still) How does that make for sharp efficiency?

[cruc1al]

Direct damage is only one factor in how effeciently you dispose of enemies. The more you do CC, the less you have to sit behind cover and wait for shields/health to recharge, to put it simply. What I'm saying is that there is an optimum trade-off between direct damage and crowd control; that trade-off is better than going for all direct damage, or all crowd control.

With cryo ammo you get +100% damage once the enemy is frozen.

As for one-shotting, that's usually possible only with sniper headshots during AR, and you won't be using sniper rifle all the time, you won't be using AR all the time, and you will miss headshots from time to time. Sometimes I find it more effective to take down defenses of multiple enemies in a row, put one cryo round in everyone and clear the floor with a shotgun, than take down enemies one by one.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 04:52 .

[danitiwa]

Soldier is my favorite class. I pick good guns over confusing biotic powers any day.

I effing love concussive shot.

Modifié par danitiwa, 08 mai 2010 - 04:53 .

[JaegerBane]

jaff00 wrote...
Contrary to your backwardass interpretation, this isn't me tooting my
own horn. As I said aside from the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank
or irritating geth hunter, mobs just sit in cover and stick their
collective heads out now and then. It's not as though you ever get
bullrushed in this game. You stay in cover, use AR, left-click on a few
mobs, solved. So I'll ask again, where does CC come into play? People
like to throw those clever little acronyms around these days even when
it's totally not applicable.
In the time it takes you to whittle away an enemy's defenses for concussive shot to work, you can also just have triggered AR and dropped 'm outright along with his buddy on the left.

Mobs that stay in cover, numbering 1 or 2, sticking their heads out now and then are not really the kinds of things that crowd control would be used upon, and frankly, I'm not really sure why you keep banging on about them. You even actually point out the enemies that you *would* use CC on but then.... well, you appear to forget about them as you mention them no more. Then you bizarrely ask the very same question as to where CC would be used despite pointing it out.

On the higher difficulties, CC isn't something that works all that well, primarily due to the very poor implementation of the defence system in the game... but that's beside the point. Currently you appear to be flat out refusing to believe the idea that holding back charging krogan and husks ever actually happens, and hence discussing the relative usefulness of concussive with you is pointless.

And given the first line of your post and your tone, it shouldn't really be difficult to consider why you come across as tooting your own horn, as you put it.

[Omicrone]

cruc1al wrote...

Even if CC is not something you have to do, it's something you benefit from doing, in terms of time and risk taken to defeat the enemy.

You're wrong there. For the time it took in your video to switch 10 weapons while you were freezing people left in right, an assault rifle junkie would've gunned them down 10 sec faster than you. Risk taken, not really. You're taking a risk staying out in the open while you try to strip defences of multiple enemies. An aggressively played soldier would take a risk shotgunning people up close, while a conservatively played soldier would just snipe.

[cruc1al]

Omicrone wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Even if CC is not something you have to do, it's something you benefit from doing, in terms of time and risk taken to defeat the enemy.

You're wrong there. For the time it took in your video to switch 10 weapons while you were freezing people left in right, an assault rifle junkie would've gunned them down 10 sec faster than you. Risk taken, not really. You're taking a risk staying out in the open while you try to strip defences of multiple enemies. An aggressively played soldier would take a risk shotgunning people up close, while a conservatively played soldier would just snipe.

Well I wasn't talking about my video, I was talking about crowd control in general. You may be right that by overusing sniper rifle with heavy disruptor or inferno I could've finished the video in much less time. I chose not to, because I wanted to spice up the gameplay with an unconventional build (I figured it was more fun to play, and that it could be more fun to watch too). Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that a direct damage playstyle would be more effective in all situations.

What about squad cryo? It doesn't require you to switch weapons. Or what about neural shock? Super fast cooldown and very efficient crowd control.

EDIT: For what it's worth though, I just timed the first floor of dantius towers with the following build: hardened AR, heavy disruptor, inferno, commando. It took 3 minutes and 10 seconds. The improved cryo build shown in my video took 3 minutes 10 seconds as well. I'm not saying they're exactly equal, but it doesn't seem to me that there's a significant difference in effectiveness.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 06:07 .

[jaff00]

JaegerBane wrote...

jaff00 wrote...
Contrary to your backwardass interpretation, this isn't me tooting my
own horn. As I said aside from the occasional krogan, varren, husk gank
or irritating geth hunter, mobs just sit in cover and stick their
collective heads out now and then. It's not as though you ever get
bullrushed in this game. You stay in cover, use AR, left-click on a few
mobs, solved. So I'll ask again, where does CC come into play? People
like to throw those clever little acronyms around these days even when
it's totally not applicable.
In the time it takes you to whittle away an enemy's defenses for concussive shot to work, you can also just have triggered AR and dropped 'm outright along with his buddy on the left.

Mobs that stay in cover, numbering 1 or 2, sticking their heads out now and then are not really the kinds of things that crowd control would be used upon, and frankly, I'm not really sure why you keep banging on about them. You even actually point out the enemies that you *would* use CC on but then.... well, you appear to forget about them as you mention them no more. Then you bizarrely ask the very same question as to where CC would be used despite pointing it out.

On the higher difficulties, CC isn't something that works all that well, primarily due to the very poor implementation of the defence system in the game... but that's beside the point. Currently you appear to be flat out refusing to believe the idea that holding back charging krogan and husks ever actually happens, and hence discussing the relative usefulness of concussive with you is pointless.

And given the first line of your post and your tone, it shouldn't really be difficult to consider why you come across as tooting your own horn, as you put it.

I mentioned varren, krogan, geth hunters and husks as those mobs who charge at you; I didn't say they required CC to handle. I didn't elaborate on the issue since I felt it spoke for itself that they too just drop after some AR action with.. pick a random weapon + warp or ap ammo.
Once their armor is down the threat is already basically neutralized and since that's the only time concussive shot even does anything well.. you get the gist I hope.
Oh and to avoid any further confusion: when I say 'the threat is basically neutralized', I mean that mobs reduced to only their health can take only very little more punishment before they go down, ergo why bother with a concussive round when a couple of pot shots will suffice.

[jaff00]

cruc1al wrote...

Direct damage is only one factor in how effeciently you dispose of enemies. The more you do CC, the less you have to sit behind cover and wait for shields/health to recharge, to put it simply. What I'm saying is that there is an optimum trade-off between direct damage and crowd control; that trade-off is better than going for all direct damage, or all crowd control.

With cryo ammo you get +100% damage once the enemy is frozen.

As for one-shotting, that's usually possible only with sniper headshots during AR, and you won't be using sniper rifle all the time, you won't be using AR all the time, and you will miss headshots from time to time. Sometimes I find it more effective to take down defenses of multiple enemies in a row, put one cryo round in everyone and clear the floor with a shotgun, than take down enemies one by one.

Well, naturally you won't use the Widow if you got no ammo, which is something that'll happen from time to time. You won't be able to keep AR up indefinitely, no but most standard enemies go down with one headshot even without AR so it's not -always- mandatory.
But an 'optimum trade-off' between direct damage and crowd control? That may be true for certain unique situations, but generally speaking? For the largest part of the game? I don't see how direct damage doesn't qualify as 'sharp efficiency'.
Even if you don't resort to the widow.. say, grab a vindicator. With heightened AR lining up headshots becomes ridiculously easy and unless there's an excessive amount of enemies all targeting you and firing precisely as you come out of cover with AR on, you'll only take minimal damage and you seriously won't need to spend much, if any, time recovering shields/health.
The way I see it killing the bad guys translates to less bad guys which in turn translates to the most efficient form of crowd control and since you can accomplish this more often than not with a single shot or 3-ish bursts from a vindicator, I rest my case.