62 réponses à ce sujet

[khevan]

JaegerBane wrote...

I generally only play on Normal. I've finished the game on hardcore and insanity with a Vanguard and an Adept each, but Normal is closer to what ME1 was like in that I don't have to mess around defence stripping *everything* I come across. Hence the number of shielded enemies wasn't enough to justify ED on him, not whilst he was packing a Tempest and an Arc Projector. Barrier essentially allowed me to simply ram into people and waltz from cover to cover without issue - worked really well with my Arc Projector too. And I personally think it looks cool

Heh, yeah, on Normal, the Adept is a much better class.  I had started an Adept way back when ME2 was newly released, but my computer decided to die on me, and I never started that guy back up.  Went with an infiltrator and never really looked back, except to try Sentinel and Adept on HC.  Haven't played below HC in a while...maybe I should try a Veteran or a Normal Adept run.  Could be fun. 

Yeah, I agree with you and the other dude. I actually quite like Shockwave (probably because I play on Normal so much) but all things considered, it was an *awful* choice of power to give the Vanguard. I genuinely can't understand what Bioware were thinking when they did this. Whilst it's great for smashing aside hordes, It's far too inflexible and specialised to give a basic biotic, and it's 6 second cooldown is too much for the Vanguard's mediocre biotic recharge rate to handle. Throw would have been *perfect* for them - short cooldown, synergy with Pull - I just don't get what the idea was by getting rid of it. 

Nevertheless, I like how Shockwave works on an Adept. It gives me a pulsing, short range aoe Throw-like power and frees me up to take Heavy Throw, which rocks my socks. Like the other biotics, it just needs to be a bit faster.

Shockwave on an Adept does make more sense, and I guess if you wanna go with heavy throw, it makes more sense, but Throw Field is my throw evolution of choice.  Enemies still go flying, and you can throw more of 'em!  But, yeah, Shockwave on a Vanguard makes no sense to me at all.  Give me Warp, Throw, Pull, Charge, Passive and Incindiary ammo, plus bonus skill, and that'd be my ideal Vanguard setup.  Hell, I'd even be ok with keeping Cryo Ammo instead of Warp, but definately give me throw instead of shockwave, please.

[mi55ter]

Interesting exchanges on this thread.

[JaegerBane]

khevan wrote...
Heh, yeah, on Normal, the Adept is a much better class.  I had started an Adept way back when ME2 was newly released, but my computer decided to die on me, and I never started that guy back up.  Went with an infiltrator and never really looked back, except to try Sentinel and Adept on HC.  Haven't played below HC in a while...maybe I should try a Veteran or a Normal Adept run.  Could be fun. 

I found the husk missions hilarious when using Improved Shockwave and Area Pull. It was like watching a violent version of Peter Pan, all these things soaring into walls and off cliffs. Once I actually got into using biotic combos I haven't looked back. I tried playing a Sentinel but gave up after the 20th time of thinking 'If only I had pull'.

Shockwave on an Adept does make more sense, and I guess if you wanna go with heavy throw, it makes more sense, but Throw Field is my throw evolution of choice.  Enemies still go flying, and you can throw more of 'em!  But, yeah, Shockwave on a Vanguard makes no sense to me at all.  Give me Warp, Throw, Pull, Charge, Passive and Incindiary ammo, plus bonus skill, and that'd be my ideal Vanguard setup.  Hell, I'd even be ok with keeping Cryo Ammo instead of Warp, but definately give me throw instead of shockwave, please.

Frankly, I would be interested to know how the skillsets for the classes were set out and designed. If you look at the way the skills are distributed, there's a pattern across them so that no two classes have the same combo of two biotics or techs. I'm kinda hoping that this wasn't the reason why the Vanguard saddled with Shockwave.

Ultimately, I do think that, like ME1, all biotics and techs should have basic bread-and-butter powers. In ME1 it was Overload and Sabotage for techs, and Lift and Throw for biotics. Techs actually still have this thanks to the way Sabotage has been incorporated into Overload and Disruptor Ammo, but the biotics weren't so lucky. I remember being really stoked when I heard they modified Throw so that it could arc and hit people, only to find that the Vanguard had lost it.

I absolutely cannot stand Cryo ammo, so I'd vote for the build you mention above.

An interesting idea I had was that, in ME3, instead of us getting landed with an arbitrary skill list, each class gets their signature ability plus a number of biotic, tech and combat slots based on what there class is (so, an Adept would get 6 biotic slots and nothing else, whereas a Vanguard would get 3 combat slots and 3 biotic slots - an infil would get 3 combat and 3 tech slots, while an engy would get 6 tech slots).

That would single-handedly eliminate duff skill combinations, and allow players to build their own characters while staying true to how the class is supposed to work. You could have caster vanguards and agressive adepts, or soldiers that specialised in explosives or ammo, or techs that specialised in circumventing or destruction.

[khevan]

JaegerBane wrote...

I found the husk missions hilarious when using Improved Shockwave and Area Pull. It was like watching a violent version of Peter Pan, all these things soaring into walls and off cliffs. Once I actually got into using biotic combos I haven't looked back. I tried playing a Sentinel but gave up after the 20th time of thinking 'If only I had pull'.

The Sentinel is useful on HC/Insanity because it's innately got Warp and Overload, so you can handle any/all defenses, and the tech armor skill is a nice defensive buff, but you're right, I certainly missed pull.  And the way you describe husk missions makes me wanna make my next run an Adept run on Normal, just to bask in the glow that is flying husks.

Frankly, I would be interested to know how the skillsets for the classes were set out and designed. If you look at the way the skills are distributed, there's a pattern across them so that no two classes have the same combo of two biotics or techs. I'm kinda hoping that this wasn't the reason why the Vanguard saddled with Shockwave.

Ultimately, I do think that, like ME1, all biotics and techs should have basic bread-and-butter powers. In ME1 it was Overload and Sabotage for techs, and Lift and Throw for biotics. Techs actually still have this thanks to the way Sabotage has been incorporated into Overload and Disruptor Ammo, but the biotics weren't so lucky. I remember being really stoked when I heard they modified Throw so that it could arc and hit people, only to find that the Vanguard had lost it.

I absolutely cannot stand Cryo ammo, so I'd vote for the build you mention above.

An interesting idea I had was that, in ME3, instead of us getting landed with an arbitrary skill list, each class gets their signature ability plus a number of biotic, tech and combat slots based on what there class is (so, an Adept would get 6 biotic slots and nothing else, whereas a Vanguard would get 3 combat slots and 3 biotic slots - an infil would get 3 combat and 3 tech slots, while an engy would get 6 tech slots).

That would single-handedly eliminate duff skill combinations, and allow players to build their own characters while staying true to how the class is supposed to work. You could have caster vanguards and agressive adepts, or soldiers that specialised in explosives or ammo, or techs that specialised in circumventing or destruction.

Couple things...first Cryo ammo by itself isn't that great, but even one point in it will let you freeze husks if you put it on the heavy pistol, which is an insta-kill, nice on HC/Insanity.  Warp* for the armor, one shot with the heavy pistol, husk shatters, NEXT!  Not to mention that squad cryo is really useful for CC.  Once you've been in a situation where you look up from your latest kill to realize that your squad has half of the remaining enemies frozen, that's an eye-opener right there.  It's niiiiice.

Also, while I like your idea about the class skills for ME3, it would take alot of work to balance out the skills, otherwise people would just pick the most powerful skills available and there ya go.  Imagine a Vanguard with Charge and Adrenaline Rush, plus pull, throw, Incindiary and another Ammo type.  That'd be entirely OP, in my opinion.  The idea could work, it just needs to be implemented right, and while Bioware makes great games, they don't have a great track record at making sure all the talents in the ME series are balanced well.  (Immunity, anyone?  Sheesh!)

*From a squadmate, obviously, or you can substitute Reave for the Vanguard's bonus skill

Modifié par khevan, 07 mai 2010 - 09:55 .

[JaegerBane]

khevan wrote...
The Sentinel is useful on HC/Insanity because it's innately got Warp and Overload, so you can handle any/all defenses, and the tech armor skill is a nice defensive buff, but you're right, I certainly missed pull.  And the way you describe husk missions makes me wanna make my next run an Adept run on Normal, just to bask in the glow that is flying husks.

I quite like Tech Armour. I'm not a huge fan of the way it looks, but it does make the Sentinel a lot more playable. That said, I don't really get why the Sentinel was chosen to be a tank in ME2. I don't remember it being so in ME1... I thought the point behind it was that it was a character class that traded capability for versatility.

Couple things...first Cryo ammo by itself isn't that great, but even one point in it will let you freeze husks if you put it on the heavy pistol, which is an insta-kill, nice on HC/Insanity.  Warp* for the armor, one shot with the heavy pistol, husk shatters, NEXT!  Not to mention that squad cryo is really useful for CC.  Once you've been in a situation where you look up from your latest kill to realize that your squad has half of the remaining enemies frozen, that's an eye-opener right there.  It's niiiiice.

The squad version I don't mind. My annoyance centres on the fact that until you've dropped 10 points in it, it's crap.

Also, while I like your idea about the class skills for ME3, it would take alot of work to balance out the skills, otherwise people would just pick the most powerful skills available and there ya go.  Imagine a Vanguard with Charge and Adrenaline Rush, plus pull, throw, Incindiary and another Ammo type.  That'd be entirely OP, in my opinion.  The idea could work, it just needs to be implemented right, and while Bioware makes great games, they don't have a great track record at making sure all the talents in the ME series are balanced well.  (Immunity, anyone?  Sheesh!)

*From a squadmate, obviously, or you can substitute Reave for the Vanguard's bonus skill

What I meant by signature abilities was the class skills we currently see - you wouldn't be able to have both Charge and AR because both belong to different classes. I don't think there'd be *that* much danger of balance going out the window - after all, most RPGs allow you to select which skills and spells you wish from a larger list.

[Sago_mulch]

THE ENGINEER IS MY FAVE class, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE SENTINEL OR ADEPT.

[JaegerBane]

Sago_mulch wrote...

THE ENGINEER IS MY FAVE class, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE SENTINEL OR ADEPT.

Uh....

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

THE ENGINEER IS MY FAVE class, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE SENTINEL OR ADEPT.

Uh....

[Koralis]

JaegerBane wrote...
Frankly, I would be interested to know how the skillsets for the classes were set out and designed. If you look at the way the skills are distributed, there's a pattern across them so that no two classes have the same combo of two biotics or techs. I'm kinda hoping that this wasn't the reason why the Vanguard saddled with Shockwave.

Shockwave for the vanguard isn't so terrible.  I'm not an "into the breech" player, and like to thin enemies out before I start charging.  Heavy shockwave lets you target distant  enemies and blast/stagger while shooting.  It's not a hugely powerful  ability, but it's a good way to incorporate biotics during a period when you won't be using the other abilities much and can be used on enemies that are in locations that you can't Charge.

Sure, Pull or Throw would be better, but that's more a factor of Shockwave's relative lameness on its own merits, not as it applies specifically to vanguards.     If Shockwave did big shield/barrier/armor damage if it wasn't going to apply the Throw effect to an unprotected enemy it'd be a damned good ability.

Modifié par Koralis, 08 mai 2010 - 01:20 .

[FoFoZem]

It's a tough question. My favorite class is Adept but that is just because of my infatuation with biotics.



The Engineer is probably the best caster, in my opinion. He's a little squishy but his skillset allows for defense stripping, CC'ing, and damage-dealing

[OniGanon]

I'm pretty sure BioWare deliberately made it so only Adepts can warp-bomb by themselves.

[JaegerBane]

Koralis wrote...
Shockwave for the vanguard isn't so terrible.  I'm not an "into the breech" player, and like to thin enemies out before I start charging.  Heavy shockwave lets you target distant  enemies and blast/stagger while shooting.  It's not a hugely powerful  ability, but it's a good way to incorporate biotics during a period when you won't be using the other abilities much and can be used on enemies that are in locations that you can't Charge.

It has it's uses. I don't doubt that - the problem is there are other powers available in the game that would have slotted into the Vanguard's skillset far, far better. It's brilliant on normal... which is possibly why the Vanguard received it, given that is the baseline difficulty level. Still, the 6 second cooldown just doesn't work on the Vanguard.

Sure, Pull or Throw would be better, but that's more a factor of Shockwave's relative lameness on its own merits, not as it applies specifically to vanguards.     If Shockwave did big shield/barrier/armor damage if it wasn't going to apply the Throw effect to an unprotected enemy it'd be a damned good ability.

I do think that there is a bit of a design issue here where Bioware felt that there needed to be yet another biotic physics effect in the game but that there should strictly be no anti-shield ability. It's a little difficult to understand how they balanced the biotics.

That said, Adepts actually get to make good use of it. The cooldown isn't as big an issue for them and they aren't totally dependant on one ability that uses the same cooldown like the Vanguards are.

[khevan]

JaegerBane wrote...

I quite like Tech Armour. I'm not a huge fan of the way it looks, but it does make the Sentinel a lot more playable. That said, I don't really get why the Sentinel was chosen to be a tank in ME2. I don't remember it being so in ME1... I thought the point behind it was that it was a character class that traded capability for versatility.

In my mind it's much like what Bioware did with the Vanguard.  They tried to change each class to make them play differently from each other, to give a different experience with each playthru.  I don't mind the fact that sentinels got the Tech Armor upgrade, since they had Barrier in ME1, with the electronics skill it upped their shields by a good bit.  It's a different focus, and it turns the Sentinel into a tank, but, to me at least, it makes sense as a logical progression from where the class was to where it now is.  But that's just me, and it still doesn't make me love the class.

The squad version I don't mind. My annoyance centres on the fact that until you've dropped 10 points in it, it's crap.

 
Well, I disagree that Cryo is crap without 10 points in it.  For an example, watch this: 
 ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBwHAw_5fA&feature=PlayList&p=AC93A1B8B888923F&playnext_from=PL&index=5]  
cruc1al uses Cryo to good effect in a solo run thru the Dantius tower as a soldier.

I think Cryo is less useful than other Ammo types like incindiary, simply because it has no inherent damage bonus of its own.  But once enemies are frozen, they take double damage, and just as importantly, they're not shooting at you, so you take less damage.  I've taken to putting Cryo ammo on my heavy pistol for the freeze effect.  I'm not as good as cruc1al in the video above, but it helps out.

What I meant by signature abilities was the class skills we currently see - you wouldn't be able to have both Charge and AR because both belong to different classes. I don't think there'd be *that* much danger of balance going out the window - after all, most RPGs allow you to select which skills and spells you wish from a larger list.

Well, I agree more with this.  I had an idea yesterday that I posted in another thread about this same subject.  Instead of choosing from a set list of skills, I'd like to see there be a system where for the first playthru, you have to play with the class the way it was when the game shipped.  That way, you play as the developers intended the game.  On subsequent playthrus, however, you can swap out up to two skills, excluding of course the class specific skill and the passive skill.  We could even have it where you can choose to swap one skill but have a bonus "loyalty" skill, or swap two skills with no bonus skill.   And obviously, tech skills have to be swapped for tech skills, same with biotics.  Soldiers, I'm not too sure what to do with them.  Admittedly, this is a flaw in my system, but hopefully there's a solution.

I think that'd give the customization you want, while helping to maintain balance and keep the characters from turning into Frankenstein's monsters skill-wise.

Modifié par khevan, 08 mai 2010 - 04:47 .

[cruc1al]

khevan wrote...
 
Well, I disagree that Cryo is crap without 10 points in it.  For an example, watch this: 
 ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBwHAw_5fA&feature=PlayList&p=AC93A1B8B888923F&playnext_from=PL&index=5]  
cruc1al uses Cryo to good effect in a solo run thru the Dantius tower as a soldier.

I think Cryo is less useful than other Ammo types like incindiary, simply because it has no inherent damage bonus of its own.  But once enemies are frozen, they take double damage, and just as importantly, they're not shooting at you, so you take less damage.  I've taken to putting Cryo ammo on my heavy pistol for the freeze effect.  I'm not as good as cruc1al in the video above, but it helps out.

To be fair, I did have 10 points in cryo. I evolved it to Improved cryo, which on insanity with shocktrooper specialization has a 6.5 second duration, and even so some of the enemies almost thawed before I could finish them (since I froze 3-5 enemies at a time). With less points, the freeze duration would probably have been short enough for the enemies to get shots at me after I froze them.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

THE ENGINEER IS MY FAVE class, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE SENTINEL OR ADEPT.

Uh....

Win.

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...

I'm pretty sure BioWare deliberately made it so only Adepts can warp-bomb by themselves.

Yep. I think that's why anyone who says Adepts are their faves only says so after playing them for a few days, it takes a while to recognise how potent the ability to just set all this stuff up yourself actually is.

But it is rather pwnage when the realisation hits

[khevan]

cruc1al wrote...

khevan wrote...
 
Well, I disagree that Cryo is crap without 10 points in it.  For an example, watch this: 
 ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBwHAw_5fA&feature=PlayList&p=AC93A1B8B888923F&playnext_from=PL&index=5]  
cruc1al uses Cryo to good effect in a solo run thru the Dantius tower as a soldier.

I think Cryo is less useful than other Ammo types like incindiary, simply because it has no inherent damage bonus of its own.  But once enemies are frozen, they take double damage, and just as importantly, they're not shooting at you, so you take less damage.  I've taken to putting Cryo ammo on my heavy pistol for the freeze effect.  I'm not as good as cruc1al in the video above, but it helps out.

To be fair, I did have 10 points in cryo. I evolved it to Improved cryo, which on insanity with shocktrooper specialization has a 6.5 second duration, and even so some of the enemies almost thawed before I could finish them (since I froze 3-5 enemies at a time). With less points, the freeze duration would probably have been short enough for the enemies to get shots at me after I froze them.

Ah...for some reason I was thinking you had less than 10 points.  Well, the same idea applies in a lesser context, though.  Even if you freeze only two enemies instead of 3-5, those two enemies aren't shooting at you. 

I'm not a huge proponent of Cryo ammo, I actually tend to wait to put more than one point in it until near endgame, but I think that it's much better than some people think.  It's got some good uses, even at lower levels.

[mi55ter]

JaegerBane wrote...
 

An interesting idea I had was that, in ME3, instead of us getting landed with an arbitrary skill list, each class gets their signature ability plus a number of biotic, tech and combat slots based on what there class is (so, an Adept would get 6 biotic slots and nothing else, whereas a Vanguard would get 3 combat slots and 3 biotic slots - an infil would get 3 combat and 3 tech slots, while an engy would get 6 tech slots).

That would single-handedly eliminate duff skill combinations, and allow players to build their own characters while staying true to how the class is supposed to work. You could have caster vanguards and agressive adepts, or soldiers that specialised in explosives or ammo, or techs that specialised in circumventing or destruction.

This is a simply brilliant idea. Making our own builds would be totally wild. It's something they could have given to us already in ME2, it could have been something post- Horizon, like retraining

[Ichaka]

Havent gotten around to trying the sentinel yet but insanity engineer and adept is fun Engineer is by far easy mode tho, adept took a bit more getting used to. Took warp ammo both times as the bonus power since I thought Id need it... The nice thing with the engineer is that you can use whichever squadmates you feel like since no specific one are needed for any mission whatsoever so just bring whoever you like the most A friend said the game was a joke as soldier on insanity so Im going to give that a go to see if its even easier than my beloved engineer.

[mosor]

Adept with energy drain by far. Once you're familiar with it, it owns almost anything on insanity. The only thing that gives me a little trouble are swarming varran surprisingly. Can never get tired of setting up warp explosions and heavy singularity neuters most people. The engineer is great too but in my opinion the adept has better combos at their disposal.

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...

Adept with energy drain by far. Once you're familiar with it, it owns almost anything on insanity. The only thing that gives me a little trouble are swarming varran surprisingly. Can never get tired of setting up warp explosions and heavy singularity neuters most people. The engineer is great too but in my opinion the adept has better combos at their disposal.

The only problem I have with that build is how incredibly fragile they are. The last time I played it on Insanity, I was routinely losing my entire shield and a chunk of my health in the time it took to execute a Throw and dip back behind cover. It was just impractical in the end.

[mosor]

JaegerBane wrote...

The only problem I have with that build is how incredibly fragile they are. The last time I played it on Insanity, I was routinely losing my entire shield and a chunk of my health in the time it took to execute a Throw and dip back behind cover. It was just impractical in the end.

Not really impractical. You're probably trying to do everything yourself. The trick of the adept is you're trying to engineer combos. So use a pull and while you're back in cover, while recovering your shields, you use miranda to detonate an unstable  warp. Or use a singularity so they don't shoot back, smg their sheilds, they float for a few seconds, then use a squddie or your own warp.  They float long enough usually for you to recover your sheilds before you use your own warp if thats the route you wanna go.

After horizon, do the anomolous weather detected in the pylos system right away. You get the damage protection research there and you should be able to research hard sheilds. The game is a lot easier after that.

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

The only problem I have with that build is how incredibly fragile they are. The last time I played it on Insanity, I was routinely losing my entire shield and a chunk of my health in the time it took to execute a Throw and dip back behind cover. It was just impractical in the end.

Not really impractical. You're probably trying to do everything yourself. The trick of the adept is you're trying to engineer combos. So use a pull and while you're back in cover, while recovering your shields, you use miranda to detonate an unstable  warp. Or use a singularity so they don't shoot back, smg their sheilds, they float for a few seconds, then use a squddie or your own warp.  They float long enough usually for you to recover your sheilds before you use your own warp if thats the route you wanna go.

After horizon, do the anomolous weather detected in the pylos system right away. You get the damage protection research there and you should be able to research hard sheilds. The game is a lot easier after that.

Techincally the whole point behind Adepts are that they can use combos themselves... otherwise I might as well play a sentinel. The actual situations I was referring to through were just arenas where I was trying to simply cast a biotic. I'd essentially get torn to shreds after a second.

That said, once I had the Hard Shields upgrade and Heavy Barrier my Adept became a biotic god, so I wasn't that bothered

[mosor]

[quote]JaegerBane wrote...


[/quote]

Techincally the whole point behind Adepts are that they can use combos themselves... otherwise I might as well play a sentinel. The actual situations I was referring to through were just arenas where I was trying to simply cast a biotic. I'd essentially get torn to shreds after a second.

That said, once I had the Hard Shields upgrade and Heavy Barrier my Adept became a biotic god, so I wasn't that bothered

[/quote]

Dunno. didn't have that problem on insanity. My shields get ripped, but those biotic effects last a few seconds, enough for you to have your pull cooled down, start regerating your shields and cast that warp. Plenty of times my squaddies die and I solo the area myself. The trick is using your singularity to lock a target down, shoot their defence, so it will auto lift them, and you can follow with your own warp. Enegery drain helps a lot because if you have kasumi, you get the tech cooldown after garrus' mission. With the upgrades, you can strip any minion level shields and restore your own with just a couple points in that skill until horizon. Personally I don't even use throw unless there are husks or it's the collector platform arena.