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[Tooneyman]

Of course I got Morinth and heres why. Domination, is freaking awesome. I mean who doesn't love watching the collectors turn on each other.

[Aradace]

Tooneyman wrote...

Of course I got Morinth and heres why. Domination, is freaking awesome. I mean who doesn't love watching the collectors turn on each other.

This, along with the reasoning that I hate Samara.  Sure, she's smexy as all hell but my GAWD she is such a goody goody......If I had the option to do so, I'd have put a round between her eyes on the spot when she "threatened" that she'd have to kill me if we met after being released from her oath...To which I did actually laugh and say "You can try ****....you can certainly try..." lol.

[Pacifien]

I can see how someone would dislike Samara's strict code and actions derived therefrom, but I don't see how that translates into Morinth being any better of a being. There's sympathy in wanting to break free from a situation that seeks to confine Morinth from a condition she suffers through no fault of her own: Samara admits as much and actually feels a bit of pride that Morinth fought the system.

But in her rebellion, Morinth developed a very keen sense of being a predator. Before it became advantageous to be civil to Shepard for her own survival, Morinth describes a feeling of satisfaction and joy in her hunt for victims as you ask her about certain items of value throughout her apartment. Intimacy can exist without resorting toward an asari melding, but Morinth decides the rush she gets from the melding outweighs the inevitable death that results.

She doesn't kill for her own survival, she doesn't kill for a greater cause, she doesn't kill for someone else's greater cause, she kills simply for pleasure. While I can see a hedonist, anarchist, or nihilist being indifferent about that, she's simply a sociopath to me. Somehow she manages to be the only character in either game that I feel zero sympathy for. Well, that I can think of off the top of my head at any rate. And I'm including Sovereign in that list. That probably strikes a Morinth sympathizer as being just as ridiculous as I feel their attitude is toward Morinth, though.

Nevermind, I can see how someone finds Morinth to be even remotely sympathetic and/or redeemable. But I'm not going to.

[7Makaveli]

I considered this a satire on making choices. Having to choose between a powerful warrior who's loyalty would be unquestioned to you and would kill anyone for principles, or a demon who's "into you" and would readily kill you or anyone for pleasure. Its why having choice isn't always a good thing. The game is morally ambiguous for having it, I like that it does.

[Aradace]

Pacifien wrote...

I can see how someone would dislike Samara's strict code and actions derived therefrom, but I don't see how that translates into Morinth being any better of a being. There's sympathy in wanting to break free from a situation that seeks to confine Morinth from a condition she suffers through no fault of her own: Samara admits as much and actually feels a bit of pride that Morinth fought the system.
But in her rebellion, Morinth developed a very keen sense of being a predator. Before it became advantageous to be civil to Shepard for her own survival, Morinth describes a feeling of satisfaction and joy in her hunt for victims as you ask her about certain items of value throughout her apartment. Intimacy can exist without resorting toward an asari melding, but Morinth decides the rush she gets from the melding outweighs the inevitable death that results.
She doesn't kill for her own survival, she doesn't kill for a greater cause, she doesn't kill for someone else's greater cause, she kills simply for pleasure. While I can see a hedonist, anarchist, or nihilist being indifferent about that, she's simply a sociopath to me. Somehow she manages to be the only character in either game that I feel zero sympathy for. Well, that I can think of off the top of my head at any rate. And I'm including Sovereign in that list. That probably strikes a Morinth sympathizer as being just as ridiculous as I feel their attitude is toward Morinth, though.
Nevermind, I can see how someone finds Morinth to be even remotely sympathetic and/or redeemable. But I'm not going to.

I "sympathize" less with Morinth than I do Samara...For me, other than afore mentioned reason, the decision to recruit Morinth over keeping Samara boils down to "usefulness".  And IMO, Morinth's skills are far more useful (Dominate ftw) than Samara's. 

Off topic, Sovereign's actual name if I remember right is Nazara, as stated by Legion

[Tooneyman]

Aradace wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

Of course I got Morinth and heres why. Domination, is freaking awesome. I mean who doesn't love watching the collectors turn on each other.

This, along with the reasoning that I hate Samara.  Sure, she's smexy as all hell but my GAWD she is such a goody goody......If I had the option to do so, I'd have put a round between her eyes on the spot when she "threatened" that she'd have to kill me if we met after being released from her oath...To which I did actually laugh and say "You can try ****....you can certainly try..." lol.

I was hopin in the game if I had my shepard make certain sexual advances at samara say? Hey you got some good yum yums. Say shepard says something like that. I was wondering if she would try to kill him. MAkes you wonder what bioware would have done if you made her do somethings which disagreed with her code. I would kind of hoping something like that would have happened.

[enormousmoonboots]

I made a branch save on my second or third run and picked up Morinth just for variety and to see what her conversation options were (and Dominate was the only loyalty power I didn't have). So far, she's really obnoxious. "Ooh, poor me, Samara was a terrible mother, blah blah filthy hipster murderer".

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 07 mai 2010 - 06:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

I hope people who look down upon Samara because she would be obligated to kill cops in order to resume her duties also look down upon Morinth an equal amount for murdering.

I also hope people realize that having to choose between Samara and Morinth is supposed to present the player with a moral quandary.  It's a true aspect of roleplaying, and I'm glad Bioware included it.

That having been said, I always choose Samara, no matter what.

It's not so much about the killing (name a party member who has less than a hundred+ deaths on their hands), and more about who they're killing and how it affects the galaxy. Morinth is reclusive and won't try and kill me, the indespensible man saving the galaxy (unless I let her), whereas Samara will do so, gladly, due to a Code which would kill off the best hope of galactic survival. Again, me.

They may kill the same number (actually, I suspect Samara has the higher body count by far), but one of them threatens the fight for the galactic survival and the other doesn't threaten to try and kill me.

[Ladi]

The whole Samara being Lawful Stupid is just bad writing. Why would she be okay with killing a cop trying to do her duty, but not okay with Nihlus's actions, or endangering innocents in her pursuit of him?



Morinth kills for pleasure, but more than that it's sick to just turn on Samara after saying you'll help her. There are some things my Renegade Shep won't do, like stabbing the Chopper repair guy in the back, punching that reporter and killing Samara.

[TudorWolf]

I took Morinth once, on my renegade playthrough. I hate doing it in general though.



Samara basically gave up everything to hunt her down, and 400 years down the line she actually confides her mission in someone else, who actually helps her to get the final hurdle. To turn around and kill her, after she puts that trust in you...

Doesn't fly with me.



(And before anyone gets any ideas I know it's all fictional, etc.)

[MokiTheMime]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I made a branch save on my second or third run and picked up Morinth just for variety and to see what her conversation options were (and Dominate was the only loyalty power I didn't have). So far, she's really obnoxious. "Ooh, poor me, Samara was a terrible mother, blah blah filthy hipster murderer".

She's so 'sublime'.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ladi wrote...

The whole Samara being Lawful Stupid is just bad writing. Why would she be okay with killing a cop trying to do her duty, but not okay with Nihlus's actions, or endangering innocents in her pursuit of him?

Lawful isn't nice. Good isn't nice. Lawful good certainly isn't nice. It certainly isn't stupid. But lawful is as lawful ascribes, and the Justicar Code is absolute to Samara. A Justicar Must do Good and Must not let others stop them, and that includes governments. From a lawful good perspective, anyone trying to stop them, even if for non-malign reasons, is an obstruction to good.

Morinth kills for pleasure, but more than that it's sick to just turn on Samara after saying you'll help her. There are some things my Renegade Shep won't do, like stabbing the Chopper repair guy in the back, punching that reporter and killing Samara.

Samara said she'd turn on you even before she said she'd help you. Her Codes is paramount, and no matter if you win her loyalty or not she will be obligated to kill you the moment she is released from her oath to you.

[Economist21]

I saved Morinth once to get dominate but that was it. For some reason on all four of my playthroughs so far the sound has glitched out during their fight.

[Ladi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lawful isn't nice. Good isn't nice. Lawful good certainly isn't nice. It certainly isn't stupid. But lawful is as lawful ascribes, and the Justicar Code is absolute to Samara. A Justicar Must do Good and Must not let others stop them, and that includes governments. From a lawful good perspective, anyone trying to stop them, even if for non-malign reasons, is an obstruction to good.

The issue here is the killing part. Why not just knock her out? If the code demands the death of any who obstruct her no matter what their reasons, it's ridiculous and greatly at odds with the Asari's apparent emphasis on diplomacy.

[GothamLord]

Ladi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lawful isn't nice. Good isn't nice. Lawful good certainly isn't nice. It certainly isn't stupid. But lawful is as lawful ascribes, and the Justicar Code is absolute to Samara. A Justicar Must do Good and Must not let others stop them, and that includes governments. From a lawful good perspective, anyone trying to stop them, even if for non-malign reasons, is an obstruction to good.

The issue here is the killing part. Why not just knock her out? If the code demands the death of any who obstruct her no matter what their reasons, it's ridiculous and greatly at odds with the Asari's apparent emphasis on diplomacy.

The Justicar Code is highly hypocritical.   I have no regrets on any of my playthroughs where I let Morinth kill Samara.  I have a Law Enforcement background IRL so when Samara threatens to kill cops for just doing their job in detaining her, that brotherhood feeling kicks in. She threatens police, she's gonna get burned. Theres nothing to imply that any of the cops in question are corrupt.  Now obviously we dont know how Asari law defers from Human law, and of course human laws can vary amid various countries.  I just cant see how someones  main goal is the pursuit of justice can come to the end result of killing more people to get to my target criminal is exceptable.

Modifié par GothamLord, 07 mai 2010 - 07:29 .

[GothamLord]

yorkj86 wrote...

I hope you see the hypocrisy of using law enforcement background as a reason to let a murderer go free because you prefer her over another murderer.  This is not to mention the absurdity involved in the very same action.  Metagaming aside, unless you go out of your way to make sure that Morinth dies on the suicide mission, I just have to chuckle at this.

Please note:  I'm not trying to insult you or your law enforcement experience, but I do think your decision to use that as a justification is highly suspect, especially considering the outcome of your actions.

I stated the LE background to explain why I get *personally* pissed off hearing her so casually threaten to kill police officers with no cause other than they are doing their job by detaining her in a murder investigation. For someone thats so hellbent on justice with her code, killing off a dozen or more other servants of justice for a single criminal seems a counter-productive action.  It seems more a personal quest for Samara at that point than following her code, because its her daughter.  Samara has some serious bad parenting skills and her whole mission to track down Morinth is more a task of clearing her conscience of being a evil baby making machine, rather than simiply tracking down a elusive killer.  Nevermind Samara not trying to bring Morinth in and force her to go into exile or anything as a mother that still loves her child. No death is apparently the only answer.  I cant personally swallow that one sorry. 

Now I dont condone Morinth or her actions.  Shes a serial killer. End of story on that.  Shes also an addict like junkies on the street. Sadly her addiction ends up with a string of corpses than than simiply killing herself in the process. Shes also been feeding an addiction for 400+ years.  As Humans addictions can become deadly in a very short time frame when it comes to things like drugs.  Our brains cant even begin to fathom how an addiction would take a toll on the mental patterns of someone over the course of several hundred years. Again it doesnt make Morinth clear of her actions, but I can see a way to sympathize with the mess up card she was dealt in life. Live in a convent for the next 900+ years of your life or be killed by your own mother.

[GothamLord]

yorkj86 wrote...

Morinth is keen on lying and manipulating her way in to Shepard's pants.  I don't trust anything Morinth says about Samara.  A stern, strict demeanor does not a bad parent make.  Also, don't forget that Samara didn't become a Justicar until after Morinth ran.  I can't deny that Morinth fleeing was likely Samara's impetus for becoming a Justicar, but I don't see reason for calling it a vendetta.  Hunting Morinth hasn't been the only thing she's over done as a Justicar.  Lastly, the practice of putting Ardat-Yakshi in to Asari monasticism didn't start with Samara.

Morinth has a condition that compels her to murder.  It's unavoidable and untreatable.  With every person she kills, she gets stronger.  Every time she gets stronger through this method, she must kill more just to gain the same amount of "strength", and that's assuming "strength" can be quantified.   However many people she's killed, it's put her on the same level as a woman who has Justicar training.   Being a Justicar demands rigorous biotic training.   That's beside the point, however; Morinth cannot stop.  The Asari apparently share the human sentiment that the criminally dangerous need to be institutionalized and/or imprisoned.  She avoided the law, presumably killed, avoided other authorities, and thus Samara was called in.  Justicars are only called in when other measures have failed.  "If a Justicar is involved, peaceful negotations are long past."

I dont disagree on the practice of Ardat-Yakshi and the monasticism.  I dont disagree that Morinth is lying and manipulative.  I do not however see a valid, justifiable reason as to why KILLING the police officers is acceptable. Why are their lives so meaningless compared to the persuit of a serial killer?? Why is the pursuit of justice for the murdered Volus so dismissable in comparison?  I'm not going to even go into a rant of her killing that one merc after she threw her across the room,now unarmed and obviously outmatched the merc was no threat.  Samara knew she was in a crime scene and there were cops just outside.  I guess Justicar Code kinda works like being a Spectre in putting you above the law and giving you a license to off whoever you damn well please.

Modifié par GothamLord, 07 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

Ultra Powerful Justicar, or Murdering Evil Sex Vampire...

Justicar, or Sex Vampire...

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Justicar Wins.