138 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Collider wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Until you've been hit with an actual addiction, it's hard to fathom how overpowering it can be. After a point, it ascends being a urge and becomes a dominating, even psychological, need.

The Ardat-Yakshi start addicted: the condition can't even be known until it acts, at which point it's too late.

The entire problem with Ardat-Yakshi is that their sexual desires/needs can't be entertained, because the act of entertaining them (the mental meld, which is crucial for the Asari's experience) is what kills.

The condemning thing for Morinth is that we already have evidence of people being able to resist the urge. Yet Morinth doesn't, instead she indulges in evil and kills innocent people like Nef. 

No, actually, we don't. We have no evidence of people being able to break the urges Ardat-Yakshi go through. Addictions have varying intensities, and no one we have heard of has ever broken the curse of the Ardat-Yakshi.

The heartwarming stories of people breaking free of life-crippling addictions are sadly the minority. Most people never shake off their addictions, and those with serious ones are often destroyed by them.

[Collider]

@Johnny - exactly. They can find entertainment in reading, music, movies, whatever. It's not going to be the end of their lives if they can't mind eat people.

[Gavinthelocust]

Collider wrote...

Sand King wrote...

Collider wrote...

The condemning thing for Morinth is that we already have evidence of people being able to resist the urge. Yet Morinth doesn't, instead she indulges in evil and kills innocent people like Nef. 

Any reason your trolling Morinth

feels good man

[Dean_the_Young]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Ecael brings up a good point about the classical conditioning for Morinth, pleasure, and the killing of her mates. It's also why I think Shepard surviving the romance path could have been such a major catalyst for Morinth as a character: it would have been the first time the conditioned response did not bring the consequence. If Morinth could have the pleasure without the consequence...

I would say that she would simply make another attempt on someone else when she had the chance.  I  can't imagine one response that does not bring consequences, convincing Morinth to live the rest of her life in celibacy.

It wouldn't be just one: why would Shepard insist she become celibate afterwards? The first would make it unique and allow a bond to settle, but the ability to continually do it would allow a different sort of conditioning to counter the first.

Well I am assuming that your earlier statement implied that only Shepard would not die from joining with her.  So after melding with Shep, she would have to remain celibate to keep from killing anyone else.  Or are you saying that her and Shep would form a long term relationship in this hypothetical scenario?

...was that not obvious?

That was sort of the point of repeatedly mentioning that they could have a continuous relationship.

[Collider]

They can have a continuous relationship? Uh...yea right.

[GodWood]

I killed Samara for Morinth because Samara was going to try and kill me anyway.

If given the option I would of killed Morinth immediately after the suicide mission but unfortunately I'm never given the chance so I'll probably have to sort her out in ME3.

I could kill her off in the suicide mission but that'd require me to metagame so I don't see that as an option...

[Dean_the_Young]

Collider wrote...

They can have a continuous relationship? Uh...yea right.

It was a hypothetical on what a change to the romance plot could have done for Morinth's possible development. It was only a page ago or so.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 mai 2010 - 03:57 .

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

@Johnny - exactly. They can find entertainment in reading, music, movies, whatever. It's not going to be the end of their lives if they can't mind eat people.

There aren't many creatures in the galaxy (or people on Earth) that can deny all sexual cravings by reading a good book.

The morality of killing oneself to save others doesn't apply to someone who just started adolescence. It is very rare to see someone under the age of 14 commit suicide, regardless of the reason. Morinth ran to avoid complete solitude or death at an early age without fully understanding the consequences of her actions on others.

Collider wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Until you've been hit with an actual addiction, it's hard to fathom how overpowering it can be. After a point, it ascends being a urge and becomes a dominating, even psychological, need.

The Ardat-Yakshi start addicted: the condition can't even be known until it acts, at which point it's too late.

The entire problem with Ardat-Yakshi is that their sexual desires/needs can't be entertained, because the act of entertaining them (the mental meld, which is crucial for the Asari's experience) is what kills.

The condemning thing for Morinth is that we already have evidence of people being able to resist the urge. Yet Morinth doesn't, instead she indulges in evil and kills innocent people like Nef. 

As I mentioned above, there are very few humans that can resist the urge to engage in ANY type of sexual activity without being genetically or medically infertile. This can also apply to Asari.

And as Dean said, some addictions overpower a person's logic and common sense. Morinth may not have realized this until she tried mind-melding the first few times. Most heavy drug users don't think about suicide for the betterment of society once they're hooked -- they think about their next fix instead, and their means of getting it. They die only when the body can no longer tolerate the rapidly increasing doses.

Collider wrote...

Sand King wrote...
Any reason your trolling Morinth

feels good man

[Dean_the_Young]

Many books and media (music, television) also target romance and sexual urges on some level or another. You read a romance, and eventually you'll want to read the steamier bits. You listen to music that pounds hard and has a beat meant to get your addrenaline and other hormones flowing, and you'll want that sort of release. Much of consumer culture is based around sex to varying degrees, and does nothing to reducethe urge.

Speaking of the picture, would it be so hard to have an ugly good alien race? The Rachni are about it, but they barely showed up at all in ME1. Everyone else is a fetish or just too harmless looking.

(My gripe about Thane's appearance.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 mai 2010 - 04:13 .

[Collider]

Ecael...I just how to say, that Thane picture...you're awesome.

[Ecael]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Many books and media (music, television) also target romance and sexual urges on some level or another. You read a romance, and eventually you'll want to read the steamier bits. You listen to music that pounds hard and has a beat meant to get your addrenaline and other hormones flowing, and you'll want that sort of release. Much of consumer culture is based around sex to varying degrees, and does nothing to reducethe urge.

Speaking of the picture, would it be so hard to have an ugly good alien race? The Rachni are about it, but they barely showed up at all in ME1. Everyone else is a fetish or just too harmless looking.

(My gripe about Thane's appearance.)

Krogan were supposed to be that race, but everyone loved Wrex, so...

...Vorcha or Batarian squadmate for ME3?

[GodWood]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Speaking of the picture, would it be so hard to have an ugly good alien race? The Rachni are about it, but they barely showed up at all in ME1. Everyone else is a fetish or just too harmless looking.

(My gripe about Thane's appearance.)

The drell race were specifically designed to be appealing for women just as the asari were designed to be busty blue babes for the average male.
This is why I hope the quarians don't turn into another overly human looking race...

[Pacifien]

As for Samara threatening the lives of law enforcement personnel in order to continue her course, I get the impression that Detective Anaya values her life while at the same time holding no ill will to the Justicar Code. Justicars exist in an odd place where the Asari respect their dogma while at the same time living in a galaxy where the dogma seems archaic. Officer Dara is even appalled at the idea that Shepard questions the Justicar's role and judgement.

I wonder if Samara had come across Nihlus again, perhaps seeing him on a mission she deemed just, if she'd attempt to kill him because of his past actions. Her threat/warning to Shepard seem to indicate she would. But she admits that people's attempts to have her enact a Justicar's sense of justice rarely turn out the way they expected, which I took to mean her judgement and punishment was far beyond what those people thought justice would entail. Do not invoke the Justicar Code lightly.

In regards to Morinth's compulsion to mate and kill, if we were to take it as a biological and mental impulse, it still wouldn't make her actions any less sympathetic than, say, a murderer who pleads insanity. Which is to say more sympathetic than a murderer who killed with a fully aware mind, but no less guilty of the crime. They're certainly not given leeway to keep doing it because they can't help it.

[Collider]

This is why I hope the quarians don't turn into another overly human looking race...

Very much agree with that.

[Ladi]

Hey remember when Morinth corrupted an entire village to worship her and offer their daughters as sacrifices? Haha, good times.



Her condition is sympathetic, but her actions are not. She's a destructive junkie.

[Dean_the_Young]

I seem to remember Samara massacred all but the children, even after Morinth had escaped.



Moreover, corrupted? It misses a crucial part of Morinth's hunt. Morinth does not make anyone do anything: she makes them want to through charm and strength of personality. All her victims, like Nef or the village, are quite willing to die for her. Saying Morinth corrupts them is like saying making a friend who will go through hell or high water is corruption.

[Teknor]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I seem to remember Samara massacred all but the children, even after Morinth had escaped.

Moreover, corrupted? It misses a crucial part of Morinth's hunt. Morinth does not make anyone do anything: she makes them want to through charm and strength of personality. All her victims, like Nef or the village, are quite willing to die for her. Saying Morinth corrupts them is like saying making a friend who will go through hell or high water is corruption.

She seduces people through intensive neuro chemical manipulation not with charm and strength of personality. Kinda like remote love potion. Plus you don't know if they were willing or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

She doesn't drug you. What you're referring to is why any race CAN find ANY Asari attractive, not why they do fall in love with Asari, whereas even Samara attributes Morinth's seductive abilities to her character.



Every implication in Morinth's mission is that they say yes when asked. Poor innocent little Nef is dying for the chance to go to Morinth's room. When you yourself go to her room after an entire conversation about how you agree that danger and risk are to be embraced, she asks you if you'd kill for her, die for her: that's the point where you need the Paragon/Renegade check of strength of will to say 'no', because her character is very much that most people like Nef say 'yes.'



It is why she's so dangerous character. She can drive people to willingly die for her.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

In regards to Morinth's compulsion to mate and kill, if we were to take it as a biological and mental impulse, it still wouldn't make her actions any less sympathetic than, say, a murderer who pleads insanity. Which is to say more sympathetic than a murderer who killed with a fully aware mind, but no less guilty of the crime. They're certainly not given leeway to keep doing it because they can't help it.

People don't have natural tendencies to kill other people unless they're mentally ill.

Almost everyone has tendencies to want to reproduce, though. The killing part is just the aftereffect, as it only became pleasurable after enough classical conditioning.

[Dean_the_Young]

Like Jack, it should be noted. She freely admits to getting a high while killing people in combat after the conditioning she was given by Cerberus.

[Tlazolteotl]

I disagree. 2 year olds are very violent, and have to be taught how not to fight.

Anything that removes this layer of conditioning, from frontal lobe damage to certain drugs' effects, will turn a lot of people into killers.