I'd like there to be no D&D classes but rather stuff grounded in Dragon Age lore. I think that would be more interesting and unique than say, Cleric, Druid, Monk etc.
I agree with you.
I was talking about a combat style not considered yet, not the D&D monk itself.
That could be a 4th class, another spec for warrior maybe or just another combat style section as bow, 2h and dw alredy are.
For example a warrior which is a brute, some kind of tavern fist fighter. Or an acrobatic rogue with special cqc techniques. To see an animation of a tuckle, an armlock, etc with the DAO engine could be really interesting. I imagine the famous Tony Jaa knee kick or flying punch as finising move (dreaming is free). That wouldn´t be lore unfriendly since it is just another style of combat which can be justified by weapon refusal, innate talents or just a different style of facing combat.
Of course I also understand that this is really peculiar and maybe not too much popular but I´d love that. Not the classic monk concept as I said before but a hand to hand combatan.
EDIT: As CybAnt said, most of the classes are alredy a vague version of a D&D class. Still, those classes/specs are a little bit poor and could be reworked for more interesting ones.
I think the only unique classes from Origins are Blood Mage and Reaver.
Still, I agree that the classes must be adapted. I think that some specs are there to fill space and there could be something more lore focused than poor adaptations.
If not, DAO will still look like a simplified version of NWN
To be honest, I think the current class system leaves a lot to be desired. I also think that the current system makes it difficult to implement new ideas.
As of Awakening, characters are able to purchase three specializations. With a level cap of 35, it's silly not to purchase all three because in many cases you won't have anything else to spend your talent points on. This leads to a system where everyone has everything and specializations aren't special. I can be a Beserker, Templar, Spirit Warrior. What?! Or a Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Keeper. Come on! This is silly!
In order to add new, unique abilities and specializations, I think that the designers need to rethink specializations entirely. They should offer more than 4 talents so that investing in a specialization actually means something. Some specializations should probably block access to others, too. Finally, they should all be more unique. Did we really need Arcane Warrior AND Battlemage? When do we get an archer specialization? What about Mages that really like to blow stuff up with fire? Bleh!
Until things change, I can't see any new ideas working well. The system is already silly enough as it is.
To be honest, I think the current class system leaves a lot to be desired. I also think that the current system makes it difficult to implement new ideas. As of Awakening, characters are able to purchase three specializations. With a level cap of 35, it's silly not to purchase all three because in many cases you won't have anything else to spend your talent points on. This leads to a system where everyone has everything and specializations aren't special. I can be a Beserker, Templar, Spirit Warrior. What?! Or a Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Keeper. Come on! This is silly! In order to add new, unique abilities and specializations, I think that the designers need to rethink specializations entirely. They should offer more than 4 talents so that investing in a specialization actually means something. Some specializations should probably block access to others, too. Finally, they should all be more unique. Did we really need Arcane Warrior AND Battlemage? When do we get an archer specialization? What about Mages that really like to blow stuff up with fire? Bleh! Until things change, I can't see any new ideas working well. The system is already silly enough as it is.
That is a great idea. Some kind of ramification. Once you take a branch you can´t jump to the others. You could have 4 branches and 3 levels (with decreasing numbers of branches maybe. Like 4,2,2 or 4,2,1). The combinations could be more unique and different. Of course, that would mean many work but since AD&D has more than 30 that shouldn´t be impossible cause the specs are really simplified compared with the prestige classes.
Shaman: A group who calls upon spirits to aid them in battle, and uses natures forces.
Two staple trees-
First row:
Spirits Strength: Increase your attack by half your level
Spirits Swiftness: Increase your melee attack speed.
Spirits Foresight: Increase chance to sense hostile enemies and traps
Spirits Safety (activated): Creates a shield that lasts for 8 seconds, that reduces damage by (10+(Player level x .5))%
Second row:
Spiritual Magic: Increase all magical damage and healing by your level.
Spiritual Endurance: 25% chance to resist knockbacks, knockdowns, and stuns when casting a spell
Spiritual Guardian: Successful single target damaging or healing spells put an angel over the target. Hostile targets receive damage, while friendly targets take less damage. Can't happen more then once per 10 seconds, lasts 5 seconds.
Spiritual Atonement(Activated): If the target is friendly, they are healed, and if the target is an enemy, it is slightly damaged, and then paralyzed
I personally find it problematic that there's only one magic using class in the game. The thing is, they can keep adding mage schools (say, a fifth or sixth Summoner or Illusionist school), but in essence every mage has the same exact method of acquiring, adding, and using spells. There can't even be anything like, say, the D & D Sorceror, who used the same spells as wizards, but utilized a different casting/acquisition system/mechanic.
I understand "divine" magic doesn't exist in this world. But how about a kind of "primal" magic that has nothing to do with the gods (per se)? That could be the kind used by your shaman class, or a druid class. And perhaps shamans, instead of acquiring spells in the way mages do, might have an entirely different, non-mana-based, method of casting and utilization.... perhaps they exist among "barbarian" tribes like the Chasinds and Avvar ....
And their magic focuses on beasts, nature, plants, the elements, weather.... etc.
Anyway, my point is, I'm wondering if at some point they'll break from this "only one class uses magic" rule ... given that it seems that templars, spirit warriors, and even rogues have some magical abilities ... I mean, does "Flicker" make sense unless it's some kind of magical teleportation?
I personally find it problematic that there's only one magic using class in the game. The thing is, they can keep adding mage schools (say, a fifth or sixth Summoner or Illusionist school), but in essence every mage has the same exact method of acquiring, adding, and using spells. There can't even be anything like, say, the D & D Sorceror, who used the same spells as wizards, but utilized a different casting/acquisition system/mechanic.
And why should there be such a class? Magic comes from the Fade. The mechanics of acquiring new spells are up to the story teller to explain.
I understand "divine" magic doesn't exist in this world. But how about a kind of "primal" magic that has nothing to do with the gods (per se)? That could be the kind used by your shaman class, or a druid class. And perhaps shamans, instead of acquiring spells in the way mages do, might have an entirely different, non-mana-based, method of casting and utilization.... perhaps they exist among "barbarian" tribes like the Chasinds and Avvar ....
No. This doesn't make sense. Magic comes from the Fade. It does not come from nature, gods, or anything else. Mages use mana.
And their magic focuses on beasts, nature, plants, the elements, weather.... etc.
The Keeper is a specialization focused on nature. Shapeshifter focuses on beasts. The Primal spells all focus on different elements and many of them involve weather. All of these are spells that a Mage can cast and all of them derive their power from the same source.
Anyway, my point is, I'm wondering if at some point they'll break from this "only one class uses magic" rule ... given that it seems that templars, spirit warriors, and even rogues have some magical abilities ... I mean, does "Flicker" make sense unless it's some kind of magical teleportation?
All of these abilities are explained in the game. Flicker claims that the Rogue's deadly speed is unmatched and he sprints from target to target "in a blur." No magic needed.Spirit Warriors derive their power from inhabitants of the Fade in exchange for letting those inhabitants glimpse the physical world. These abilities are magic, but again they come from the Fade. Templars derive their power from lyrium, a mineral with clear connections to the Fade. So again, magic comes from the Fade.
Of course, these examples demonstrate that there are methods of using magic other than the ones that Mages use. Even Mages themselves have more than one method (see Blood Magic). But the source of magic must always be the Fade and any specialist casters easily fit into one of the three primary classes.
And why should there be such a class? Magic comes from the Fade.
And yes, does that mean there is only one way to tap into it?
I hate it when gamelore becomes a straightjacket. Hate the Forgotten Realms for being a kitchen sink setting if you must, but at least it was possible to come up with new class ideas without everything being ruled out as impossible from the outset.
No. This doesn't make sense. Magic comes from the Fade.
And again, I repeat, should there be one and only one way to tap into it?
Flicker claims that the Rogue's deadly speed is unmatched and he sprints from target to target "in a blur." No magic needed.
Oh please. Without magic, that makes no f**king sense whatsoever. He can backstab 20 people all standing in one area close to each other before any of them react?
Neither does Arrow Time. How else, sans magic, is an archer bending time itself to slow down his enemies?
So again, magic comes from the Fade.
You've repeated yourself three times, so I'll repeat myself thrice: and does there have to be only one way to tap into it?
In short: yes. There is nothing in the lore to support magic coming from elsewhere and there have been no hints that there ever will be. Indeed, there was much debate before the release of DA:O about sources of magic and I'm pretty sure that Mr. Gaider said it's Fade or Bust. I like it that way. I really hope that they never ruin it.
and I'm pretty sure that Mr. Gaider said it's Fade or Bust.
That's fine. I repeat. Does that mean the only way one can tap its power is through learning the specific schools of magic Ferelden mages have come up with? It's a big world. I'm not talking about a different power source, I'm talking about tapping into the power differently. Chasind and Avvar shamanic magic might be a bit ... diff. ... than what Circle Mages (and even apostates) focus on.
And BTW there already is another power source besides the Fade ... blood itself, powering Blood Magic ... as you yourself acknowledged ... so it looks to me like there already could be others.
That's fine. I repeat. Does that mean the only way one can tap its power is through learning the specific schools of magic Ferelden mages have come up with? It's a big world.
There are already different ways to access the powers of the Fade. We've already talked about some of them (e.g. Spirit Warrior). As far as I know, there is no system that all Mages follow to learn their spells like there is in D&D. It's open to the story teller to describe how any given Mage learns some specific spell. We already see different factions in the tower, different focuses pursued by different Magi, and specializations that cover nature, the elements, weather, beasts, and enhanced melee combat. We have already seen an example of a Chasind magic user and she was still a Mage. Surely you don't think that she learned her spells in the same way that Wynne did?
The existance of another magic-using class is entirely illogical. If you think of a caster that focuses on an area most Mages don't, that's a new specialization. If you think of a new way to access the powers of the Fade, again that's a new specialization (though not necessarily for the Mage class). In short, if you can cast, you're a Mage. Full stop.
And BTW there already is another power source besides the Fade ... blood itself, powering Blood Magic ... as you yourself acknowledged ... so it looks to me like there already could be others.
I'd like to to see the specialisation system fleshed out rather than new classes. Race specific specialisations would be nice a Dalish Keeper perhaps could be expanded to a full class maybe? Or a specialisation for Dwarves involving the manipulation of lyrium or runes?
Seifz wrote...
To be honest, I think the current class system leaves a lot to be desired. I also think that the current system makes it difficult to implement new ideas. As of Awakening, characters are able to purchase three specializations. With a level cap of 35, it's silly not to purchase all three because in many cases you won't have anything else to spend your talent points on. This leads to a system where everyone has everything and specializations aren't special. I can be a Beserker, Templar, Spirit Warrior. What?! Or a Spirit Healer, Blood Mage, Keeper. Come on! This is silly! In order to add new, unique abilities and specializations, I think that the designers need to rethink specializations entirely. They should offer more than 4 talents so that investing in a specialization actually means something. Some specializations should probably block access to others, too. Finally, they should all be more unique. Did we really need Arcane Warrior AND Battlemage? When do we get an archer specialization? What about Mages that really like to blow stuff up with fire? Bleh! Until things change, I can't see any new ideas working well. The system is already silly enough as it is.
I don't remember if I've posted here or not, but w/e...
More or less what I quoted. I want to see the current specs fleshed out more. I think it was CybAnt that said 4 or 5 activated, 4 or 5 passive / sustained abilities per spec? basically a second line would make each spec worth more when a character took that spec. Only a second spec at a somewhat later level then now, a third wouldn't work this way.
Maybe the race-restricted stuff could work. Side note to Bioware: give us Dalish mages! and don't BS us that the Keeper magic works in an entirely different way, you can wave away the Ultimate Sacrifice, so you can wave away something this small. An alternate berserker for dwarves only? a Knight-like / Chevalier class for humans, archers and Keepers for elves, etc.
I'm against the "taking one spec blocks out others", though. At least initially, maybe Bio could justify it well.
Crazy class
+ 3 str
+ 3 Con
+ 3 dex
- 4 cunning
special starting ability: Activate/free/ Crazy rampage: increase damage by 30% for 5 seconds and at the end of this ability suffer -10 to attack and increased fatigue by 10% for the next minute.
Next ability unlocks at lvl 6 Radical thinking: passive/ increases willpower by 25% of your intelligence.
Next ability unlocks at lvl 10 increased sensitivity: sustained/45 stam / increase damage by 20% If you receive damage 10 times in 15 seconds you are stunned for 2 seconds while this ability is sustained.
Final ability unlocks at lvl 14 Unleashed: activate/50/Attack speed increase by 200% decreases damage by 5% every strike the hits.Lasts 20 seconds
Weapons: Dual weapons/Ranged bow/2 hand
Specializations coming soon.
-mage hunters who could give people who dislike blood mages and want to hunt them an RP option without having to be a lyrium addicted templar or a chantry follower, or like chasind, dalish and barbarian tribes trained special members of their clans to hunt harmful mages who threaten their people think(evil apostates and evil blood mages)
-ranged weapons and could possibly know minor magic(like templars)
Spells;
Cleansing Arrows - Each critical hit from a bow removes a buff from the target.
Spell Familiarity - 20% Spell Resistance
Presence of Mind - The Witch Hunter breaks free of hostile magic.(think cone of cold, paralyze, crushing prison, or take off curse of mortality). 120 second cool down.
Invisibility - replaces stealth lvl 4(same cd/mechanic), but adds on top of an automatic critical hit extra damage based on the the targets mana. Not as powerful as mana clash obviously, but give them an extra thump versus magical things. 10 second cool down.
Mage Spec; Oracle +2 mana regeneration +2 willpower -5 magic
-Mages that are very pro chantry, and want to serve the maker with their gift have a high moral code and are very judgmental of forbidden magic and apostates.
-buff based not very good at harmful(offensive magic)
Spells;
Chant of Light - Sustained ability. The mage recites the chant increasing stamina regeneration, attack, and defense based on the mage's willpower.
Andraste's Favor - Through the mage's faith and will to serve the Maker the mage gets 25% less fatigue.
Inspiration - The mage's Chant of Light inspires also increasing mental and physical resistance based of the mage's willpower.
Spiritual Atonement - The mage seeks to atone becoming 50% less effective with offensive spells to increase healing and buffs by 20%.
-Warriors from the hills and wilds survival of the strongest that is the life of a Barbarian. They use their brute force to overpower enemies. Resistant to nature damage and poisons as well.
- Passive barbaric traits to compliment the warrior along with a pretty good strike on a cool down.
Spells;
Adaptation - Increases the warrior's attack and defense also granting 20% nature resistance.
Brute Force - The warrior uses raw strength to dictate damage for all weapons and their equip requirement.
Natural Defense - The warrior has increased armor based on their strength rating also poisons are half as effective against barbarians.
Savage Strikes - The Barbarian strikes their target viciously until they critically hit which does aoe damage to all around the target for normal damage. Friendly Fire possible. 90 second cool down.
lol after reading over it seems pretty overpowered, but hey i dont get paid to do this so
I'm against the "taking one spec blocks out others", though. At least initially, maybe Bio could justify it well.
I added this part to prevent combinations that don't make any sense for a single character. For example, I cannot see how a Templar / Reaver / Spirit Warrior makes any sense from a lore perspective. Or what about making Wynne a Blood Mage?
Of course it would be up to the story teller (BioWare, mod writers, etc.) to determine which specializations are locked for which characters, if any. I'd imagine that justification would lie with them as well.
Why is it when people want to diversify their characters the first thing that comes to mind for them is we need more classes, as if giving it a different name suddenly makes it different? The fact that your pointing to the number of D&D classes just makes the argument rediculous.
D&D is bloated with useless classes that all do exactly the same thing but with slightly different game mechanics, if anything the D&D system is far more restrictive then you think DA is, because it literally does straight jacket you into something with no way of ever changing anything about your character, here is a list of 4 powers, you get to pick one and in 4 levels, you can pick a new one, bleh. Gods forbid you want to play a dex based fighter or anything that is even remotely different from what is presented to you, and any points spent in stats outside of the classes primariys are a complete waste, unlike DA where almost every attribute gives at least some benefit to any class, even if its small.
Kind of like the OP's example of a barbarian, there is no need for a barbarian class or even a specealization for that matter, everyone's brain has been programmed to think of barbarian as a class because D&D had it. Barbarian should not be a class, barbarian is a background, your a barbarian if you grew up in the wilds away from civilization, it has absolutely nothing to do with a class, though the current berserker specealization could be used by many people from barbarian cultures because its a favored fighting style, barbarians would not be limited to a class to be a barbarian, and should be able to be rogues, warriors and even apostate mages.
I am a bit iffy about the idea of an unarmed fighter, I personally think that is more preprogrammed thinking from old school D&D. There certainly is no historical or even fictionally historical counterpart to monks as unarmed fighters. Every culture, even those who heavily practiced unarmed combat would never hesitate to use a weapon if it was available, training in unarmed combat was designed to teach people how to protect themselves in situations where weapons where unavailable, not as a preferred method of fighting in any situation.
I am not saying that DA class system could not use some more options and flexibility, it does, but asking them to throw in lots of named classes simply for the sake of having named classes is silly. You can say rawr I am a barbarian, without there being Barbarian printed at the top of your character sheet.
A barbarian is something that you are, not something that you do.
Kenshi: The point I wanted to make with this class was to make a warrior who was focused on offense. They cannot deal the damage a rogue does, but they can deal their optimum damage a lot more consistantly than a rogue, because they can strike from any angle, and rogues need to worry about positioning for backstabs.
Line 1: Stances*
1: Chuudan no Kamae: sustained stance, 0.5 stamina per second, only usable while wielding a single weapon. Slows attack speed to 30% of base, increases critical chance to 60%, increases all damage by 10%.
2: Gedan no Kamae: Sustained stance, 0.4 stamina per second, only usable while wielding a single weapon. Decreases attack speed to 10% of base, increases critical chance to 60%, increases damage by 10%, increases defense by 25.
3: Joudan no Kamae: Sustained stance, 1 stamina per second, only usable while wielding a single weapon. Decreases attack speed to 25% of base, increases critical chance to 60%, increases all damage by 10%, increases attack (chance to hit) by 25% sets defense to 0.
4: Still Mind: Passive ability, improves effectiveness of fighting in all stances slightly. Chuudan no Kamae: +10% base attack speed, +4% critical chance, +5% damage bonus. Gedan no Kamae: increases defense by an additional 15 points. Joudan no Kamae: +15% base attack speed, +4% critical chance, +5% damage bonus. (Only changed stats are noted here.)
*While all stances are active, if your armor fatigue is to ever go above 10%, your combat critical hit chance will go down at a rate of .5% per .1% of fatigue.
Line 2: Proficiency Feats*
1: Shodan: Passive ability, improves effectiveness of stances slightly. Chuudan: +10% speed, +5% all damage Gedan: +5% all damage, +5 defense Joudan: +5% speed, +5% all damage Kiai: -5 seconds from cooldown.
2: Dan: Passive ability, improves effectiveness of stances to a greater degree. Chuudan:+15% speed, +5% crit chance, +15% all damage Gedan: +5% crit chance, +15% all damage, +10 defense Joudan: +5% attack, +15% speed, +5% crit chance, +15% all damage Kiai: -10 from stamina cost, +20% stamina regeneration. Debana:+10 seconds to duration.
3: Shogo: Passive ability, improves effectiveness of stances thuroughly. Chuudan:+5% speed, +15% crit chance, +30% all damage Gedan: +15% crit chance, +30% all damage, +15 defense Joudan: +10% attack, +5% speed, +15% crit chance, +30% all damage Kiai: +5 seconds to duration, + 5 to defense debuff, + 5 to attack debuff. Debana: +10% chance of scoring an attack against a foe.
4: Kensei: Passive ability, improves effectiveness of stances supremely. Chuudan:-15% speed, +35% crit chance, +50% all damage Gedan: +35% crit chance, +50% all damage, +25 defense Joudan: +20% attack, -15% speed, +35% crit chance, +50% all damage Kiai: +10 seconds to duration, + 15 to defense debuff, +15 to attack debuff, +50% to stamina regeneration. Debana:Target independant; Any foe, making any attack against you triggers Debana.
*:All benefits are cumulative as proficiency becomes stronger.
Line 3: Active abilities 1: Kiai: Active ability, 30 second cooldown, 30 stamina, 10 second duration. Decreases hostile defense by 10, decreases hostile attack by 5.
2: Zanshin: Active ability, 60 second cooldown, 50 stamina, 15 second duration. Increases damage by 5%, when one opponant is killed, get a free attack on the next immediately, as long as they are within 10 meters.
3: Katsugi: Active ability, 40 second cooldown, 30 stamina. Increases chance to hit to 95% on next attack.
Video of Katsugi:
4: Debana: Active ability, 120 second cooldown, 60 stamina, 10 second duration. Every attack your targeted foe makes against you gives you a 50% chance of making an automatic attack against them.
so lets do an oblivion system everyone makes and names thier own class minus being able to learn and do everything
I'm not a particular fan of class-less systems. And they only give this massive freedom everyone talks about if they give the generic omni-character lots of skills and paths for divergent development; rarely do they do so.
Then you have weird systems like Dungeon Siege where you start equally bad at everything, do X to get better at X, and once you start getting better at X then Y, the game calls you an X-er. And basically your three choices are magic, bashing, or shooting. Get the best at magic and it calls you a mage.
And that massive freedom of DA's system (three classes plus four-six shallow specializations for each?) Of course I can call my character whatever I want. That's not the point. Can I have him do the kinds of things I want him to do, or have the kinds of abilities that fit the concept I'm thinking of? If not, then no, I'm not seeing the massive freedom people are claiming for its "streamlined" system either.
I love it. I enjoy playing kensai/kenshi, ninja, monks, and samurai. But you have a lot of purists here who think that if you enjoy playing such things "go play Jade Empire". "Keep your Eastern concepts, weapons, etc. out of my Western medieval ghetto".
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