75 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

CodyMelch wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

From a roleplay perspective, i would avoid using any biotic power.

In terms of Roleplay any power except for dominate(seeing as it's an yadrakt-yatshi or w/e power) would make sense. I mean if a Soldier had a biotic power(like Reave) then it means they have an implant in their head that is either an L4 or an L3 in their head. Really.....in terms of roleplay any class can get away with a biotic power because anyone can get biotics as long as they have an implant in their head.

I'm not really sure where you got that from, but Mykel is correct - it doesn't really make sense from an RP perspective for a shep to be a biotic that only ever learned one biotic ability, normally only known to Asari Justicars, and never figured out any of the simpler ones.

And it takes more than just an implant in the head to be a biotic. Read the codex.

My soldier took flashbangs. They fit the idea of the soldier better than the rest of the bonus powers imo.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...


And it takes more than just an implant in the head to be a biotic. Read the codex.

Yep. Being able to do even simple telekinesis stuff requires years of training from childhood onwards. If shepard had done such training he'd be adept or vanguard, not soldier.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 05:37 .

[Mykel54]

JaegerBane already explained it quite well CodyMelch.

Reave is in the first place is a bit non-lore. It seems more like a vampire trick than an actual manipulation of mass effect like the rest of biotic powers. I do know how powerful it is ingame but if i was to use it i would only do it with Samara as she is an asari justicar so we can suppose she have received special training. An even that is a bit dubious if you are too purist, not because how powerful it is, but because how it works. It is completely different from other biotic powers. To fit in the lore it would certainly need an explanation of how/why asari justicars learn that ability.



Also as a bonus when Samara uses it she says something like "your life is mine" which is pretty cool. When shepard use it (even if he is a biotic) you don´t heard anything. Personally i gave my vanguard warp ammo instead of reave so i could maximise the rest of biotic talents. I usually take Samara along so i don´t miss Reave too much on my character.



But of course this only applies if you are looking at it from a roleplaying perspective, if you don´t care about that then of course go ahead and use it. It is of course a very good all around and powerful bonus talent to have.

[Cody]

cruc1al wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...


And it takes more than just an implant in the head to be a biotic. Read the codex.

Yep. Being able to do even simple telekinesis stuff requires years of training from childhood onwards. If shepard had done such training he'd be adept or vanguard, not soldier.

I'm not really sure where you got that from, but Mykel is correct - it
doesn't
really make sense from an RP perspective for a shep to be a
biotic
that only ever learned one biotic ability, normally only known to

Asari Justicars, and never figured out any of the simpler ones.

That is if Shepard learned a wide variety of biotics. This is just one biotic. It rakes years to do the simpilistic of biotics but it can still be done as long as you learn only a few. For example if it wasn't possible then Kaidan would have never of said anything to Shepard about him being a biotic even though only had one biotic power(in my case Singularity) In the end for a wide variety of powers you get as an adept,vanguard or as a sentinel then yeah it can take years of training. But for only learning one powerful one It make take years, but not as long as it would a vanguard. Let alone an Adept.

In the end a soldier with ONE Biotic power is canon rpg wise. Learning multiple ones on the otherhand is not possible.

Vangaurds have half thecombat  training that Soldiers get and have half the biotic training that adepts have. AQ soldier with only 1 biotic skill(whether it is Reave, Slam or Barrier) would mean that they have not received as much biotic training as a vanguard ot sentinel has had. So it would not take as long.

(I do not mean to be pushy about this, but as long as it is only one biotic ability then RP lore wise, it should be fine. It's not like the soldier has had Vanguard or sentinel training in biotics or anything, just a little biotic training while mostly trained in combat)

Modifié par CodyMelch, 08 mai 2010 - 06:21 .

[Cody]

Mykel54 wrote...

JaegerBane already explained it quite well CodyMelch.
Reave is in the first place is a bit non-lore. It seems more like a vampire trick than an actual manipulation of mass effect like the rest of biotic powers. I do know how powerful it is ingame but if i was to use it i would only do it with Samara as she is an asari justicar so we can suppose she have received special training. An even that is a bit dubious if you are too purist, not because how powerful it is, but because how it works. It is completely different from other biotic powers. To fit in the lore it would certainly need an explanation of how/why asari justicars learn that ability.

Also as a bonus when Samara uses it she says something like "your life is mine" which is pretty cool. When shepard use it (even if he is a biotic) you don´t heard anything. Personally i gave my vanguard warp ammo instead of reave so i could maximise the rest of biotic talents. I usually take Samara along so i don´t miss Reave too much on my character.

But of course this only applies if you are looking at it from a roleplaying perspective, if you don´t care about that then of course go ahead and use it. It is of course a very good all around and powerful bonus talent to have.

I do not mean to double post but again, having 1 biotic ability would mean that the soldier with the power has had even less biotic training than a sentinel and a Vanguard. So the amount of years of training would be even less then half of what a sentinel and Vanguard would of gone though, seeing as the class would only know one biotic ability(wheter it is Slam,Barrier,Or Reave)

[cruc1al]

I'm not really sure why you think it matters how many biotic abilities you have. If you can perform a heavy reave, it should be child's play to do simple tasks like level 1-2 throw and pull. It's all about manipulation of mass effect fields. I would imagine that pretty much the only thing that separates knowing one power from knowing two or three is memorization of the power into a physical trigger that helps you perform it; not a matter of skill, ability or potential. To me, it doesn't make sense lore-wise that you can perform an evolved reave but not rank 1 throw, because it should be much harder to make significant progress in one ability than learn the basics of many.

[Cody]

cruc1al wrote...

I'm not really sure why you think it matters how many biotic abilities you have. If you can perform a heavy reave, it should be child's play to do simple tasks like level 1-2 throw and pull. It's all about manipulation of mass effect fields. I would imagine that pretty much the only thing that separates knowing one power from knowing two or three is memorization of the power into a physical trigger that helps you perform it; not a matter of skill, ability or potential. To me, it doesn't make sense lore-wise that you can perform an evolved reave but not rank 1 throw, because it should be much harder to make significant progress in one ability than learn the basics of many.

True, but again it can go either way. I mean again the conversation with Kaidan in Mass Effect 1 or how you can easily change your class from soldier to adept in ME2. Of course the Lazerus project would have something to do with it but that doesn't change the possibility of a Soldier Shepard being able to know a biotic ability thanks to said project. That and look at Jacob, In Mass effect galaxy he had the abilities of a infiltrator and a vanguard. But his moveset was changed in ME2 to fit game mechanics. That being said, if he had the years time to learn vanguard abilites and infiltrator like abilities(such as the use of tech overloads and such) then whats to say a Soldier would not know some biotics?

[cruc1al]

I thought the class change was just for gameplay purposes. It'd be stupid not to be able to change your class, since they're so different from ME1 classes and even if they were similar, some players would want to play a different class. It doesn't matter what the lore says, a bit like with thermal clips being universal but not. The same is true for soldiers and biotics - you CAN take a biotic ability as bonus power for sake of gameplay, but it doesn't have to make sense from a lore perspective.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 08:10 .

[Cody]

cruc1al wrote...

I thought the class change was just for gameplay purposes. It'd be stupid not to be able to change your class, since they're so different from ME1 classes and even if they were similar, some players would want to play a different class. It doesn't matter what the lore says, a bit like with thermal clips being universal but not. The same is true for soldiers and biotics - you CAN take a biotic ability as bonus power for sake of gameplay, but it doesn't have to make sense from a lore perspective.

It also depends on how the training went as well. Again look at Jacob in Mass Effect galaxy. He had the combat,biotic and tech abilities of a vanguard and an infiltrator. Whats to say Shepard would not have some biotic training as well? Even as a soldier. Again according for lore he probably could have learned the capabilties of a soldier as well recieve some training in Biotics training as well. Just no where near as much as a vanguard would. After all. Lor-wise, If  Jacob can have the abilities of a Vanguard and an infiltrator in Mass Effect Galaxy, then wouldn't a soldier class Shepard be able to recieve SOME sort of biotic training?  It may take years of training. But Kaidan ,as a teenager was able to use his biotics to kill Vyrnnus. Whats to say Shepard could not receive Biotic training as a teenager and receive military training when he was 18?

[cruc1al]

I'm not saying a soldier couldn't have any of biotics. It doesn't make sense that a soldier can advance in one biotic skill - like reave - to a level equal to that of a dedicated biotic without having access to any other biotics at a basic level. As I said in my second last post, it should be much harder to progress far in one biotic ability than to learn the basics of many.

[Cody]

cruc1al wrote...

I'm not saying a soldier couldn't have any of biotics. It doesn't make sense that a soldier can advance in one biotic skill - like reave - to a level equal to that of a dedicated biotic without having access to any other biotics at a basic level. As I said in my second last post, it should be much harder to progress far in one biotic ability than to learn the basics of many.

Oh.....I guess I misunderstood you, I apologize lol. I thought you meant that to lore, a soldier class could never have the use of biotics. Sorry about that lol. I guess then the only biotic power that a soldier could get away with while still being true to lore is Slam, seeing as it follows the basic fundamentals of of biotics.(correct me if I am wrong)

Again Sorry for misunderstanding you like that.

[cruc1al]

No it's fine, as I didn't make it explicit that I agreed a soldier could have access to biotics in theory. It's just that the game mechanics allow only one biotic ability and place no restrictions to how far you can evolve that ability, and that doesn't make sense to me. Lore-wise, I'm fine with putting 1 or 2 ranks in skills like warp ammo, slam and barrier, but reave or dominate... not so much.

Modifié par cruc1al, 08 mai 2010 - 09:09 .

[Cody]

cruc1al wrote...

No it's fine, as I didn't make it explicit that I agreed a soldier could have access to biotics in theory. It's just that the game mechanics allow only one biotic ability and place no restrictions to how far you can evolve that ability, and that doesn't make sense to me. Lore-wise, I'm fine with putting 1 or 2 ranks in skills like warp ammo, slam and barrier, but reave or dominate... not so much.

It's a shame we cannot add more abilities to our characters. Would be nice getting the chance to gain other bonus ablities as well, like in ME1 for example.

I would like to have the option to add Warp and overload to my soldier. Or warp and pull(etc). Would add more uniqueness onto your character.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 08 mai 2010 - 09:25 .

[JaegerBane]

CodyMelch wrote...
That is if Shepard learned a wide variety of biotics. This is just one biotic. It rakes years to do the simpilistic of biotics but it can still be done as long as you learn only a few. For example if it wasn't possible then Kaidan would have never of said anything to Shepard about him being a biotic even though only had one biotic power(in my case Singularity) In the end for a wide variety of powers you get as an adept,vanguard or as a sentinel then yeah it can take years of training. But for only learning one powerful one It make take years, but not as long as it would a vanguard. Let alone an Adept.

In the end a soldier with ONE Biotic power is canon rpg wise. Learning multiple ones on the otherhand is not possible.

Vangaurds have half thecombat  training that Soldiers get and have half the biotic training that adepts have. AQ soldier with only 1 biotic skill(whether it is Reave, Slam or Barrier) would mean that they have not received as much biotic training as a vanguard ot sentinel has had. So it would not take as long.

(I do not mean to be pushy about this, but as long as it is only one biotic ability then RP lore wise, it should be fine. It's not like the soldier has had Vanguard or sentinel training in biotics or anything, just a little biotic training while mostly trained in combat)

I think Cruc1al touched on this, but you seem to be assigning a large amount of importance on the number of biotics that a character learns somehow is relevant to this dicussion, and it simply isn't. Ultimately, from what we read in the codex and the novels, people do not 'dip in' to biotics to learn the odd trick. There is no such thing as 'just a little' biotic training. You are either a biotic or you are not. They live entirely different lives and, on joining the military, they're treated very differently, and go down very specific paths.

Your point that it's canon for them to take one because the player can do so via the bonus talent system doesn't make any sense, as the player can learn several, just not at the same time. The bonus power system isn't totally canon itself, so basing it on the fact you can do it doesn't hold water.

Vanguards don't have 'half the training in combat of a soldier and half the training in biotics as an adept', whatever that is supposed to mean - their training is extremely directed, involving close range biotics and CQB training.

Seriously, just have a read through in the codex and the novels. They make it pretty clear.

[Cody]

JaegerBane wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...
That is if Shepard learned a wide variety of biotics. This is just one biotic. It rakes years to do the simpilistic of biotics but it can still be done as long as you learn only a few. For example if it wasn't possible then Kaidan would have never of said anything to Shepard about him being a biotic even though only had one biotic power(in my case Singularity) In the end for a wide variety of powers you get as an adept,vanguard or as a sentinel then yeah it can take years of training. But for only learning one powerful one It make take years, but not as long as it would a vanguard. Let alone an Adept.

In the end a soldier with ONE Biotic power is canon rpg wise. Learning multiple ones on the otherhand is not possible.

Vangaurds have half thecombat  training that Soldiers get and have half the biotic training that adepts have. AQ soldier with only 1 biotic skill(whether it is Reave, Slam or Barrier) would mean that they have not received as much biotic training as a vanguard ot sentinel has had. So it would not take as long.

(I do not mean to be pushy about this, but as long as it is only one biotic ability then RP lore wise, it should be fine. It's not like the soldier has had Vanguard or sentinel training in biotics or anything, just a little biotic training while mostly trained in combat)

I think Cruc1al touched on this, but you seem to be assigning a large amount of importance on the number of biotics that a character learns somehow is relevant to this dicussion, and it simply isn't. Ultimately, from what we read in the codex and the novels, people do not 'dip in' to biotics to learn the odd trick. There is no such thing as 'just a little' biotic training. You are either a biotic or you are not. They live entirely different lives and, on joining the military, they're treated very differently, and go down very specific paths.

Your point that it's canon for them to take one because the player can do so via the bonus talent system doesn't make any sense, as the player can learn several, just not at the same time. The bonus power system isn't totally canon itself, so basing it on the fact you can do it doesn't hold water.

Vanguards don't have 'half the training in combat of a soldier and half the training in biotics as an adept', whatever that is supposed to mean - their training is extremely directed, involving close range biotics and CQB training.

Seriously, just have a read through in the codex and the novels. They make it pretty clear.

You do realize that the discussion was already finished right? Also what I ment about "half the training" is by that soldiers focus more on combat training than Vanguards to while Adepts focus more on bioti training than Vanguards do. Soldiers are typically better in combat focused skills while Adepts are know more biotics abilties and are generally more powerful.. Where Vanguards aren't as powerful as an adept, they are more so than a soldier, and vanguards may have better combat skills than an adept, it isn't as skillful as a soldier. You see what I am getting at?

Also a soldier can still use Biotics and still be connected to cannon Cruc1al also agreed on this. He just did not agree that a soldier would be only focused on 1 ability and that being dominant and Reave(seeing as they are different from the basics). While Barrier and slam are more possible for a soldier to have and still be connected to lore.

Read this article:http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Biotics
No matter what class he is. It is still possible for Shepard to have biotics capabilties. It just depends on what kind of ability it is and that they would have to know more than just 1.

[JaegerBane]

CodyMelch wrote...

You do realize that the discussion was already finished right?

If you're implying that I shouldn't be responding to your post, then I'm afraid that's the nature of the forums. If you didn't want someone commenting on something you said then you shouldn't have posted it.

Also what I ment about "half the training" is by that soldiers focus more on combat training than Vanguards to while Adepts focus more on bioti training than Vanguards do. Soldiers are typically better in combat focused skills while Adepts are know more biotics abilties and are generally more powerful.. Where Vanguards aren't as powerful as an adept, they are more so than a soldier, and vanguards may have better combat skills than an adept, it isn't as skillful as a soldier. You see what I am getting at?

Sort of... though that was only really true in ME1. Now the actual role of the class dictates what they train in rather than what kind of skill tree they use.

Also a soldier can still use Biotics and still be connected to cannon Cruc1al also agreed on this. He just did not agree that a soldier would be only focused on 1 ability and that being dominant and Reave(seeing as they are different from the basics). While Barrier and slam are more possible for a soldier to have and still be connected to lore.

That's a bit of an artful interpretation of what he said. As far as I read he was agreeing that it's possible for a soldier to have biotics but he'd expect to see some abilities in simpler types of biotics rather than full Heavy Reave but no other ability in anything else. I suppose it is somewhat canon for a soldier to have just Slam, I suppose...

[Athenau]

But since the call is separate, for any multipliers to apply to the ammo power would require those multipliers to be applied twice during the calculation. Once for the ammo power, and again for the weapon itself. I find that unlikely. Actually, now that I think of it, I've tested whether the damage done by squad AP ammo is equivalent to the damage done by 5/5 sniper upgrades in the presence of other modifiers; it turns out AP ammo does less damage than the upgrades.

I did some damage testing a while back to try and figure out how the adrenaline rush damage boost worked, here's a data point I dug up.
Revenant vs a husk, either 4/5 or 5/5 Assault Rifle upgrades, penetration upgrade, Commando, Tungsten Ammo.

With AP ammo: 88 pixels of damage done to armor bar
WO AP ammo: 60 pixels of damage done to armor bar

So AP ammo accounts for a 46% damage boost.

If ammo powers and penetration upgrades worked as you described it, you'd expect the following (assuming 4/5 upgrades)

WO AP Ammo: 1.4 (revenant multiplier against armor) * 1.25 (penetration upgrade) * 1.4 (weapon upgrades) * 1.15 (commando bonus) = 2.8175x base weapon damage
W. AP Ammo: 1.4 * 1.25 * 1.4 * 1.15 + (.7 * 1.15) = 3.6225x base weapon damage

Based on the calculation you'd expect only a ~28% damage boost from Tungsten, but it seems to be rather higher than that.

Modifié par Athenau, 08 mai 2010 - 10:20 .

[Cody]

JaegerBane wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

You do realize that the discussion was already finished right?

If you're implying that I shouldn't be responding to your post, then I'm afraid that's the nature of the forums. If you didn't want someone commenting on something you said then you shouldn't have posted it.

I apologize if I come off offensive...I am not meaning to it's just how I type sometimes. I don't mean to come off rude or offensive in any way at all and I apologize if I seemed "snappy" so to speak.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 08 mai 2010 - 10:22 .

[cruc1al]

Athenau wrote...

But since the call is separate, for any multipliers to apply to the ammo power would require those multipliers to be applied twice during the calculation. Once for the ammo power, and again for the weapon itself. I find that unlikely. Actually, now that I think of it, I've tested whether the damage done by squad AP ammo is equivalent to the damage done by 5/5 sniper upgrades in the presence of other modifiers; it turns out AP ammo does less damage than the upgrades.

I did some damage testing a while back to try and figure out how the adrenaline rush damage boost worked, here's a data point I dug up.
Revenant vs a husk, either 4/5 or 5/5 Assault Rifle upgrades, penetration upgrade, Commando, Tungsten Ammo.

With AP ammo: 88 pixels of damage done to armor bar
WO AP ammo: 60 pixels of damage done to armor bar

So AP ammo accounts for a 46% damage boost.

If ammo powers and penetration upgrades worked as you described it, you'd expect the following (assuming 4/5 upgrades)

WO AP Ammo: 1.4 (revenant multiplier against armor) * 1.25 (penetration upgrade) * 1.4 (weapon upgrades) * 1.15 (commando bonus) = 2.8175x base weapon damage
W. AP Ammo: 1.4 * 1.25 * 1.4 * 1.15 + (.7 * 1.15) = 3.6225x base weapon damage

Based on the calculation you'd expect only a ~28% damage boost from Tungsten, but it seems to be rather higher than that.

That's interesting. If both your results and mine are true, it would mean ammo powers receive some but not all of the multipliers that apply to weapon base damage.

EDIT: Let's see.. if the ammo power benefits from the revenant multiplier against armor,
2.8175 + 0.7 * 1.15 * 1.4 = 3.9445 = 40% more than without Tungsten. 84px vs 60px.

If it also benefits from the penetration upgrade,
2.8175 + 0.7 * 1.15 * 1.4 * 1.25 = 4.2265 = 50% more than without Tungsten. 90px vs 60px.

Both are close, but not exactly... it could be either, as far as we know (assuming you did your counting right).

EDIT2: On the other hand, the damage could be calculated thus:

base * (1 + 0.4 + 0.25 + 0.4 + 0.15) + ammo bonus = 2.2 + ammo bonus
2.2 + 0.7 * 1.15 = 3.005 for tungsten. 3.005/2.2 = 1.366, which is closer to your result than the multiplicative method.

Another thing that could mess with calculations is distance. If you were at short distance you got +25% damage. That would change the previous to
2.45 + 0.7 * 1.15 = 3.225 for tungsten. 3.225/2.45 = 1.316.

Or the damage calculation could be a hybrid between this method and the multiplicative one. For example, all bonuses from skills and gear could be added together before multiplication of base damage, but the inherent anti-armor bonus would remain as a separate multiplier.

Modifié par cruc1al, 09 mai 2010 - 12:30 .

[Zaxares]

I like to give my characters bonus powers that suit them in a roleplaying sense. For my Vanguard, I gave him Barrier, and my Engineer is currently using Neural Shock (although she may switch to Energy Drain later). For my Soldier, I'll probably either go with an Ammo Power (Warp Ammo looks pretty nice) or one of the grenades (I'm thinking Flashbang for more effective crowd control).

[Athenau]

base * (1 + 0.4 + 0.25 + 0.4 + 0.15) + ammo bonus = 2.2 + ammo bonus
2.2 + 0.7 * 1.15 = 3.005 for tungsten. 3.005/2.2 = 1.366, which is closer to your result than the multiplicative method.

Another thing that could mess with calculations is distance. If you were at short distance you got +25% damage. That would change the previous to
2.45 + 0.7 * 1.15 = 3.225 for tungsten. 3.225/2.45 = 1.316.

Or the damage calculation could be a hybrid between this method and the multiplicative one. For example, all bonuses from skills and gear could be added together before multiplication of base damage, but the inherent anti-armor bonus would remain as a separate multiplier.

Hmm, lumping the penetration bonuses in additively provides a worse fit than the multiplicative method. I think the 50% number is likely the closest to correct. Assuming a 1 pixel margin of error (game renders gradients on lifebars so it's annoying to judge exactly where they begin and end) gives a range of 89/59 = 1.508 to 87/61 = 1.426, or a 42.6 to 50.8% advantage for tungsten.

Judging from my screenshots it looks like the husk was at 8-9m for the AP ammo test and a little closer for the non-AP test. So, if anything, the 46% number is a lower bound on the AP ammo bonus.

Modifié par Athenau, 09 mai 2010 - 02:35 .

[FoFoZem]

Interesting.



The AP Ammo damage multiplier conversation, I mean.



As far as Soldiers go, I went with Flashbang Grenade. Simply because if I max it out I can get a Frag Grenade and then I really feel like a soldier when I open my squad screen.

[Xaijin]

Reave or gsb

[Tilarta]

Heavy Geth Shielding.



Ironically, I had to sacrifice one of my ammo powers (Cryo) to get it.



It lasts a relatively long time, has tech upgrade bonuses and Geth Shielding 2/2 bonus.



Also, if can be used to restore your shields instantly.

[Silvanend]

No Point in using Reave since you can just pound away ANY Barrier or Armor with a few shots from your rifle. I would Use Armor Pierceing Ammo and replace Inferno Ammo with that, Armor Piercing ammo is better against Mech's and people than inferno ammo and far more deadly.