59 réponses à ce sujet

[HashiriyaR32]

So, I've been thinking about the new heat mechanic that was implemented in ME2.  I have a few things that bug me and maybe 2 suggestions for ME3.

1. Between weapons of the same classes, each weapon's thermal clip holds a different amount of spare heat sinks.  Let's take the assault rifles.  A standard thermal clip for the Avenger and Collecter AR's each hold 10 additional sinks, not counting capacity bonuses granted by the off-hand ammo pack.  A TC (thermal clip) for the Geth PR holds 11, 4 for the Vindicator, and 6 for the Revenant LMG.  If the thermal clips are supposed to be universal for small arms retrofitted to use them, then what's with the varying heat sink capacities?

2. Codex says something to the effect of "a used thermal clip can be quickly swapped out for a new one".  While you can find thermal clips on the ground or spare thermal clips dropped by enemies, you can't actually swap your small arms' thermal clips.  All the time, you're collecting fresh heat sinks from the dropped thermal clips for your weapons.

3. For Mass Effect 3, this mechanic should be taken further.  The ammo indicator should be configured as such..

[(# of shots remaining for current heat sink)  (number of spare heat sinks in thermal clip) (number of fresh thermal clips remaning)]

By default hitting the reload key/button should have you eject the current heat sink (which would be lost) for a new one, or exchanging an empty thermal clip for a fresh one should it be required.  By holding down the button for .5 or even a quarter of a second, a 4-directional menu should pop-up, where you can select using the d-pad (on the 360) whether to pop the heat sink, swap thermal clips now (old thermal clip retained if it still has spare heat sinks), or cycle through your weapon's modes of fire (semi/burst/auto).

4. Should you run out of spare thermal clips and spare heat sinks in your current one, you could wait for your current heat sink to cool off.  Of course, the coolddown rate would be slow enough to encourage you to keep looking for thermal clips.

So, anyone want to provide their input on this?

Modifié par HashiriyaR32, 08 mai 2010 - 12:50 .

[nocturne98]

Well, to comment on your first point, different weapons have different designs, meaning one weapon might not be as heat efficient as another.

For example, the Vindicator is more powerful than the Avenger, so presumably its heat buildup is greater. Because the thermal clips are universal, this results in fewer shots available for the Vindicator compared to the Avenger.

Modifié par nocturne98, 07 mai 2010 - 09:26 .

[Daewan]

HashiriyaR32 wrote...

3. For Mass Effect 3, this mechanic should be taken further.  The ammo indicator should be configured as such..

[(# of shots remaining for current heat sink)  (number of spare heat sinks in thermal clip) (number of fresh thermal clips remaning)]

By default hitting the reload key/button should have you eject the current heat sink (which would be lost) for a new one, or exchanging an empty thermal clip for a fresh one should it be required.  By holding down the button, a 4-directional menu should pop-up, where you can select using the d-pad (on the 360) whether to pop the heat sink, swap thermal clips now (old thermal clip retained if it still has spare heat sinks), or cycle through your weapon's modes of fire (semi/burst/auto).  No direction or selecting the remaining direction would result in inaction.

Uh... I have this terrible urge to grab a case study on usability and smack you with it.  You're seriously suggesting a three/four step process to be used in the middle of combat?  Because that's when it would be most important to have a full clip, and be able to refill your ammo.

Seriously, read what you typed there.  Pick up a controller, and try to imagine doing this in the middle of trying to reach Garrus before he dies, for example.  Now compare your suggestion to the gameplay mechanic that currently exists.  You're suggesting adding unneccessary layers of complexity, mapping them all to an easily fumbled section of the controller, and putting it into the most stressful sections of the game (combat).

I do consider the idea of being able to switch weapon modes to be valuable; however, I don't have a concrete suggestion to offer yet.  But I do know enough about the target market of players to know when an idea is unworkable.  Most players don't care/won't use/don’t need that much detail.

Refilling ammo should always be simple and seamless, or nonexistent.  I preferred heat sinks and weapon customization upgrades.  I think thermal clips are an interesting game mechanic, and they add to the challenge of playing on higher difficulty levels.  I do like your idea of mixing clips and heat sinks, though.  That would be an interesting mechanic and might even function properly; a lot would depend on the implementation, however.

And I just realized how pompous and stuckup I sound in the first paragraphs of my reply.  Ooops.  (*smacks self with a usability study*)

[CatatonicMan]

nocturne98 wrote...

Well, to comment on your first point, different weapons have different designs, meaning one weapon might not be as heat efficient as another.

For example, the Vindicator is more powerful than the Avenger, so presumably its heat buildup is greater. Because the thermal clips are universal, this results in fewer shots available for the Vindicator compared to the Avenger.

That would only be true for the number of shots per sink, not for the number of sinks you had available.

There are additional problems, as well. For example, if the clips were actually universal there should be a single large pool of thermal clips available for every weapon to draw from; it shouldn't be possible to run out of ammo for one gun without running out of ammo altogether, but somehow it is.

To put it bluntly, the ammo system was designed with only shooter gameplay in mind - not story, not canon, not immersion, not any of the other RPG-centric mechanics - which is why it makes absolutely no sense. It was implemented as a balance factor for the weapons, and as a method of forcing the player to switch between weapons, and that's it.

The sad thing isn't that they implemented a new system; it's that they didn't care enough to actually make the system sensible, logical, and fitting to the game world. This was one of the numerous little problems that ganged up on the immersion and beat it into a squishy, bloody pulp every time I had to switch weapons due to low ammo.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 08 mai 2010 - 12:34 .

[HashiriyaR32]

Thanks for the replies. And thank you CatatonicMan for the correction. I was going to post earlier was I got called away.

@Daewan My suggestion has its origins from the console versions of the Ghost Recon series (2 and GRAW series for next-gen) and from the Rainbow Six Vegas series. Holding down reload for the former brings up the live menu for reloading (don't need the menu? just tap reload) and fire mode switching, while for the latter, holding reload brought up its 4-directional live menu for attachments (affix/remove suppressor, activate/deactivate laser sight) and fire mode selection (PC players also had a separate button for cycling through the fire modes without bringing up the menu).

There are some weapons I would've simply liked to use if only the number heat sinks available wasn't less of an issue, the Vindicator being a great example. Once I maxed out the current sink and the 4 subsequent spare sinks in the mag, that was it, there was no way of immediatly swapping to a fresh magazine of heat sinks since the game doesn't allow you to carry spare mags.  It only allowed you to scavenge heat sinks from dropped mags.

I agree with CatatonicMan.  The new heat mechanic is sorta flubbed, and I hope the staff gives this thread a read and retools it (for the better) for the final game in the trilogy.

Modifié par HashiriyaR32, 08 mai 2010 - 12:49 .

[cruc1al]

IMO the current system has the advantage that the weapons don't need to be designed to be balanced according to a universal heatsink system. Bioware can design the kind of gun they want, then just adjust how many heatsinks you can get with it; this allows for a wider selection of possible weapon types in terms of damage output per bullet and per second, and thus richer gameplay.

[M8DMAN]

I think they need to overhall the heatsink system. I kept running out of ammo during hardcore mode due to the lack of heatsinks.

[javierabegazo]

M8DMAN wrote...

I think they need to overhall the heatsink system. I kept running out of ammo during hardcore mode due to the lack of heatsinks.

I never really ran out of ammo and I've always played on Insanity. Perhaps you should revise your play style?

[CatatonicMan]

cruc1al wrote...

IMO the current system has the advantage that the weapons don't need to be designed to be balanced according to a universal heatsink system. Bioware can design the kind of gun they want, then just adjust how many heatsinks you can get with it; this allows for a wider selection of possible weapon types in terms of damage output per bullet and per second, and thus richer gameplay.

From a gameplay/balance point of view, you are correct; the way they have the ammo system now is the easiest to balance. It also happens to be functionally identical to almost every other shooter in existence.

The real issue is that, while the ammo system works great from a shooter point of view, it is one of the worst possible from every other angle. They took the fast, easy way out by simply ignoring the other aspects and focusing only on the shooter instead of trying to make a system that would work and make sense no matter how you looked at it.

[JKoopman]

HashiriyaR32 wrote...

3. For Mass Effect 3, this mechanic should be taken further.

...or scrapped completely. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't even mind if they changed them to something a bit more rational like battery packs, but thermal clips as they're implemented are ridiculous and make no sense.

[Atmosfear3]

CatatonicMan wrote...

From a gameplay/balance point of view, you are correct; the way they have the ammo system now is the easiest to balance. It also happens to be functionally identical to almost every other shooter in existence.

The real issue is that, while the ammo system works great from a shooter point of view, it is one of the worst possible from every other angle. They took the fast, easy way out by simply ignoring the other aspects and focusing only on the shooter instead of trying to make a system that would work and make sense no matter how you looked at it.

There are no issues with the ammo system.  It works.  Its smooth.  Alternate firing modes would be utterly pointless if that is the suggestion.

Why fix what isn't broken?

[Andaius20]

I really really really hope they go for a true hybrid system.



Make the clips truly universal as you have ONE supply of them. The gun have cool down like in ME 1, tweeked to be more balanced. When you over heat yo ucan choose to pop a fresh sink in like you do now, or wait until the weapon cools down.



That way you aren't FORCED into using the autoguns (assault rifle and SMGs) al lthe time because they haev the most ammo and pick up the most ammo.

[HashiriyaR32]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

There are no issues with the ammo system.  It works.  Its smooth.  Alternate firing modes would be utterly pointless if that is the suggestion.

Why fix what isn't broken?

Fire mode selection isn't the only addition I'm suggesting.  Please go through my posts again.

Andaius20 wrote...

I really really really hope they go for
a true hybrid system.

Make the clips truly universal as you
have ONE supply of them. The gun have cool down like in ME 1, tweeked to
be more balanced. When you over heat yo ucan choose to pop a fresh sink
in like you do now, or wait until the weapon cools down.

That
way you aren't FORCED into using the autoguns (assault rifle and SMGs)
al lthe time because they haev the most ammo and pick up the most ammo.

Allowing for cooldown is another one of my suggested additions that I listed in my first post.

And another big thanks to everyone who's contributing to this thread so far.

Also, my edited post doesn't seem to be showing up right.

Modifié par HashiriyaR32, 08 mai 2010 - 05:37 .

[Massadonious1]

Does it break your immersion, because you can't imagine your super space marine using something as ridiculous as ammo, or does it break your immersion because you don't have your Spectre X weapons crutch anymore?



Whatever they ended up doing for ME2, it needed a change, because they way it was just wasn't working. I can handle one poorly written codex entry and one insignificant timeline discrepancy if it meant the gameplay was better.



And, to be honest, I have to wonder what situations people are getting themselves into where they run out of "clips" so often. You can't just jump from Casual or Normal to Insanity and expect to one shot Widow everything. That's the entire point of having guns and powers that strip different defenses.

[CatatonicMan]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Does it break your immersion, because you can't imagine your super space marine using something as ridiculous as ammo, or does it break your immersion because you don't have your Spectre X weapons crutch anymore?

No. Most of the immersion breaking comes from the retcon of the canon to incorporate the new weapon system, the lack of any actual ammo regeneration (or cool down) that would happen when the clip was not full (even if slow), the fact that the 'universal' clips are in no way universal (they are not shared between weapons), the fact that each different weapon has a different number of reserve clips for no reason, and the fact that the thermal clips are not reusable like they should be (once they cool down). Hell, even the total and complete lack of 'old' weaponry that didn't rely on the thermal clips.

There are probably more issues and inconsistencies in the ammo system, and they all add up into a big immersion-choking miasma. Odd that none of those issues has much to do with the actual ammo use or the inclusion of overpowered weaponry. Oh well.

[SuperMedbh]

"Retcons Happen"



I'm fairly sure I saw that bumper sticker somewhere. Truthfully, the only thing about the new system that bugs me is the unrealism of searching the battlefield for clips. Why can't I reuse mine? If they're too hot, then why can I reuse the enemies?



But I don't let that keep me up at night. I can't think of a better answer. Maybe they'll have one in ME3

[TJSolo]

Just pretend the means justifies the end.

Everything about thermal clips is a tool to support the combat system and install psuedo-pressure.

[FlyingWalrus]

No more bottomless magazines.

Better.

I don't know if I like the OP's idea. One of BioWare's intents behind the thermal clips was to keep the combat fluid. That's also the reason there are more keys to map your Talents to. Adding a radial would interrupt the pacing.

[prem0nition]

While I would much prefer for most standard weapons to go back to the ME1 heatsink system, I wouldn't argue with a hybrid system. Big thing for me is to minimize (or more preferably remove) ammo scavenging while keeping the combat dynamic.

I'd like to see a system where, when you have overloaded a heatsink you are given a choice to either swap out to a different weapon, swap the heatsink out for a reserve, or attempt a manual vent. How would this work? well lets see...

Swapping out to a different weapon allows the overloaded heatsink time to cool, this should be slow, but should happen over time, bringing that weapon back into usefulness, even if only for a couple of shots if you manage to overload your new weapon quickly.
By swapping out to a reserve sink (much like reloading) you're back in action quickly, with a weapon that's cool and ready to fire, but you only have a limited number of reserve sinks that have to be discharged at a weapon station (much like the in universe example of ships discharging the heat they build up during travel at stations across the Citadel) to get the used sinks back.
Manual venting would cool the heatsink slowly, but much faster than if left to cool naturally when swapping to another weapon, but keep you out of combat for longer than swapping out to a reserve sink.

In my opinion, this should keep combat somewhat dynamic while removing the need to scavenge ammo.

As another note, I think that certain weapons, heavy weapons especially, should stay ammo based. I am perfectly happy with how ME2 deals with breaking out the big guns.  I am, however, pondering how sniper rifles should be handled... In my opinion, with a normal rifle a sniper should be able to snipe as much as they like, just somewhat punished by a low rate of fire and high heat spikes which should cool relatively quickly. Though there is a case for having sniper rifles be ammo based. Perhaps a top end sniper rifle (like the widow) should pull from the heavy weapons pool? Not too sure, but it's something to look at.

[KitsuneRommel]

SuperMedbh wrote...

"Retcons Happen"

They should have just gone for standard ammo system with different special ammo instead of ammo powers (like in System Shock 2 and Bioshock).

[kraidy1117]

Don't confuse gameplay with lore

[TJSolo]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

SuperMedbh wrote...

"Retcons Happen"

They should have just gone for standard ammo system with different special ammo instead of ammo powers (like in System Shock 2 and Bioshock).

Naw. The attempt to be innovative with was better than conventional.
I hope they get the suupposed hybrid system that was planned for ME2 working in ME3

[Atmosfear3]

HashiriyaR32 wrote...

Fire mode selection isn't the only addition I'm suggesting.  Please go through my posts again.

Sorry, your ideas are still terrible, not to mention old.  You are suggesting a change to a hybrid system in which all clips are universal (as the lore suggests, which is a poor excuse imo).  If that was to happen, then you would risk running out of ammo for all your weapons.  One of the reasons for the current system to not use a universal system is because it encourages you to use other weapons.  They don't want you going through the entire game using the same weapon.

Secondly, how realistic would it be if a soldier has no clips left and is literally just waiting in cover for his gun to cool down.  Take for instance this situation on insanity:  Your teammates are all dead.  Its you versus 6+ enemy targets including a sub-boss with multiple defenses.  You've ran out of ammo and now you're waiting for your weapon to cooldown.  You are a soldier with no supplementary powers to use against the enemy.  You are screwed.

[Thundertactics]

It's just an excuse to implement a standard ammo system, don't think too much into the logic of it, and definitely don't expect them to adjust their gameplay to make it more logical.
Sorry...

[prem0nition]

Atmosfear3 wrote...
Secondly, how realistic would it be if a soldier has no clips left and is literally just waiting in cover for his gun to cool down.  Take for instance this situation on insanity:  Your teammates are all dead.  Its you versus 6+ enemy targets including a sub-boss with multiple defenses.  You've ran out of ammo and now you're waiting for your weapon to cooldown.  You are a soldier with no supplementary powers to use against the enemy.  You are screwed.

Hate to disappoint you, but you'd be even more screwed in ME2 in such a situation. At least with a heat sink system, you have a chance to wait out the cooling the on your weapon while in cover and then getting back into the fight. In ME2, with the same situation, out of thermal clips for all weapons, team mates dead etc, you really are screwed. The only choice you have is to go out there and punch someone (while under fire from all his buddies and the sub boss) and pray that he drops you a thermal clip before you die.

Modifié par prem0nition, 08 mai 2010 - 03:38 .