59 réponses à ce sujet

[TJSolo]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Sorry, your ideas are still terrible, not to mention old.  You are suggesting a change to a hybrid system in which all clips are universal (as the lore suggests, which is a poor excuse imo).  If that was to happen, then you would risk running out of ammo for all your weapons.  One of the reasons for the current system to not use a universal system is because it encourages you to use other weapons.  They don't want you going through the entire game using the same weapon.

Secondly, how realistic would it be if a soldier has no clips left and is literally just waiting in cover for his gun to cool down.  Take for instance this situation on insanity:  Your teammates are all dead.  Its you versus 6+ enemy targets including a sub-boss with multiple defenses.  You've ran out of ammo and now you're waiting for your weapon to cooldown.  You are a soldier with no supplementary powers to use against the enemy.  You are screwed.

Except that most compotent players still do go through the game with one weapon, maybe changing it out for specific enemies.
My infilitratror(Insanitty) used the mantis/widow most of the time and only switched to the tempest for husks.
My sentinal used smgs from the beginning to the end of the game. Players sticking with one weapon has not been solved by thermal clips, not that a player sticking with one weapon is even a problem.

Waiting in cover for cooldown doesn't take long, if you use ME1 as precedent for cooldown duration. Also actually reaching the overheating stage would not happen provided a player keeps their rate of fire/heat output monitored, as the OP is suggesting.

[HashiriyaR32]

You are suggesting a change to a hybrid system in which all clips are universal (as the lore suggests, which is a poor excuse imo).

I didn't exactly suggest that. I said something to that effect because I was questioning why weapons within the same type/class had thermal mags with different heat sink capacities. Also, the ability to actually swap thermal mags (which you currently can't do) would allow you to extend the time you can stay in the fight.

I seriously need to dump this pepper avatar, but apparently I'm not allowed to upload an avatar from off-site >_<

Modifié par HashiriyaR32, 08 mai 2010 - 04:17 .

[Chill 0078]

JKoopman wrote...

HashiriyaR32 wrote...

3. For Mass Effect 3, this mechanic should be taken further.

...or scrapped completely. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't even mind if they changed them to something a bit more rational like battery packs, but thermal clips as they're implemented are ridiculous and make no sense.

not to sure what is so bad about it

[DragonShadow1987]

ME3 should combine the ME1 system with ME2's: swap tc to instant-reload, or wait for cooldown. As implemented in ME2, where if you have no thermal clips left and you can't use the weapon at all, it might as well be Ammo Packs, not Thermal Clips.

[JKoopman]

Chill 0078 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

HashiriyaR32 wrote...

3. For Mass Effect 3, this mechanic should be taken further.

...or scrapped completely. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't even mind if they changed them to something a bit more rational like battery packs, but thermal clips as they're implemented are ridiculous and make no sense.

not to sure what is so bad about it

The fact that it completely spits in the face of both everything we learned and were told about how weapons function in ME1, is a step back technologically despite being told in-game that it's somehow a step forward, and flies in the face of the laws of thermodynamics by never cooling or dissipating heat EVER (ie: I can fire a single shot with my SMG and theorietically play through the entirety of the campaign only to pull it out again for the last boss battle and find the "heat" generated by that single shot to still be present in the weapon in the form of one less potential "round" in the "chamber").

Why they even tried to concoct this half-assed ammo explanation instead of just outright retconning it as actual ammo, I don't know. As it stands, the thermal clip system is almost insulting to my intelligence.

Again, battery packs would've at least made sense if they absolutely HAD to incorporate an ammo system.

Modifié par JKoopman, 09 mai 2010 - 12:50 .

[Sidney]

JKoopman wrote...
flies in the face of the laws of thermodynamics by never cooling or dissipating heat EVER (ie: I can fire a single shot with my SMG and theorietically play through the entirety of the campaign only to pull it out again for the last boss battle and find the "heat" generated by that single shot to still be present in the weapon in the form of one less potential "round" in the "chamber").

So much this. I can pop off one round per fight and my thermal clip will burn up over time. I still don't understand why i have the scrounge clips. I should have 2 clips. One cooled and 1 in the weapon and I just swap them around putting the hot sink into a super future tech cooling bag or something.

The non-universality of the clips is annoying as well. If I just want to use gun X that is my choice don't try and force me to use weapons I don't want to use..

[HTTP 404]

the gameplay as is, works for me but i see OPs point of it not making a whole lot sense when tied to the story and the universe. However, I dont think they should change it.

[ashxander104]

Thermal clips are just another lame way of making the game more applicable to shooter fans. This is even evident in the amount of "ammo" the guns hold...Certainly in the ME reality, if this thermal clip technology were plausible, it also seems plausible that a heat sink could fire off more rounds before overheating, and that they would cool off over time. I guess it takes a really long time for them to cool off since there are so many "scattered around battlefields" and whatnot.



ME2 seems designed to be a shooter with RPG elements rather than the other way around like the original.

[CatatonicMan]

Not that I mind this issue coming back up, but was it really necessary to resurrect this decaying old thread?

[NephilimNexus]

prem0nition wrote...

While I would much prefer for most standard weapons to go back to the ME1 heatsink system, I wouldn't argue with a hybrid system. Big thing for me is to minimize (or more preferably remove) ammo scavenging while keeping the combat dynamic.

I'd like to see a system where, when you have overloaded a heatsink you are given a choice to either swap out to a different weapon, swap the heatsink out for a reserve, or attempt a manual vent. How would this work? well lets see...

Swapping out to a different weapon allows the overloaded heatsink time to cool, this should be slow, but should happen over time, bringing that weapon back into usefulness, even if only for a couple of shots if you manage to overload your new weapon quickly.
By swapping out to a reserve sink (much like reloading) you're back in action quickly, with a weapon that's cool and ready to fire, but you only have a limited number of reserve sinks that have to be discharged at a weapon station (much like the in universe example of ships discharging the heat they build up during travel at stations across the Citadel) to get the used sinks back.
Manual venting would cool the heatsink slowly, but much faster than if left to cool naturally when swapping to another weapon, but keep you out of combat for longer than swapping out to a reserve sink.

In my opinion, this should keep combat somewhat dynamic while removing the need to scavenge ammo.

As another note, I think that certain weapons, heavy weapons especially, should stay ammo based. I am perfectly happy with how ME2 deals with breaking out the big guns.  I am, however, pondering how sniper rifles should be handled... In my opinion, with a normal rifle a sniper should be able to snipe as much as they like, just somewhat punished by a low rate of fire and high heat spikes which should cool relatively quickly. Though there is a case for having sniper rifles be ammo based. Perhaps a top end sniper rifle (like the widow) should pull from the heavy weapons pool? Not too sure, but it's something to look at.

I like this idea.  IMHO... In ME1 Soldier was the easiest class to play because even an overheated weapon could cool itself off in a fraction of the time it took any of the tech/biotic powers to recharge.  The unlimited ammo didn't hurt either.  I tried all the classes but in the end I kept coming back to Soldier when I wanted to up the difficulty level.

But in ME2 Soldier had become the hardest class for me to play.  Suddenly ammo for my arsenal of guns was very, very finite while all tech/biotic powers became these fast charging bottomless wells of destructive power.  To top it off I had made the foolish mistake of taking Warp Ammo for my bonus talent, since biotic barriers seemed like the weak spot of Solider and I wanted to plug that gap.  Thus my only reusable unlimited power was Concussive Shot.  Even Normal play was hard for me.  I soon found myself replaying with Engineer and Adept characters and would go through entire missions without firing a single shot.

So we went (again, just IMHO) from Solider being the most overpowered class to the most underpowered.  I think that this hybrid heat sink system you have mentioned would have been just the thing to bring it into better balance with the other classes for both games, had it been thought of at the time.  Hopefully we'll see it in ME3.  

[wizardryforever]

Well there is one explanation for why you can carry only so much spare ammo for each gun.  It's a little shaky, but here goes:  The "reload" mechanism in-game isn't actually reloading, it is simply removing the spent heatsink and shifting the next into position.  All the heatsinks listed in the clip are already in the gun, which would explain why Shepard doesn't put a new heatsink into his/her weapon with each "reload."  Therefore, each weapon can only hold a certain amount of heatsinks, which is where the "ammo capacity" comes from.  This doesn't really explain why you can't carry extra heatsinks outside of the off-hand ammo pack though.

The only real problem with the current system for me is that the heatsinks don't cool over time; your only option is to pop it out and move on to the next one.  There should be a mechanism for natural cooling, but it should be very slow, to encourage using your heatsinks and to back up the in-game explanation that heatsinks are more efficient.  Perhaps the cooldown time gets longer the more you let it cool naturally, basically forcing you to pop the heatsink to improve your efficiency.

I'm also a little leery about how biotic and tech attacks are still limitless while guns now have limited ammo.  It seems to have weakened the already mediocre soldier class and strengthened the caster classes somewhat.  Nothing game-breaking or Earth-shattering, but it is there.  Perhaps implement a limit to the spamming of powers, particularly specific powers.  This could be accomplished by gradually increasing the cooldown (which is global now, remember) for specific powers the more they are used.  It would discourage Warp spam and give the Soldier back something that he lost.  It would encourage people to diversify their arsenal of powers beyond Warp explosions and combat drone spam, to use those powers that are not quite as popular, like throw and cryo blast.  Just a suggestion.

[Epic777]

The thing is a cooling system akin to me1 has one big problem: me2 battle system is much faster. The shorter cooling system for powers is there to compensate for that fact. From my own experience the soldier was the easiest class in me1 by far, soldier ability included immunity and the ability to allocate many points very early into assault rifles. Honestly I think the classes work fine as is, I don't see one classes that rules them all.

[MachDelta]

I disagree with the concept of thermal clips cooling over time. A solid chunk of metal (say, copper) can hold a LOT of energy, and dissipating it all into random atmospheres at a rapid rate would not be easy (and maybe not even safe). To even pull a hundred degrees out of a 10cm^3 chunk of copper in under a minute (which is an eternity in a firefight) would require moving so much atmospheric volume you might as well just huff puff and blow your enemies down. And doing it solely on convection? Forget it. You may as well grab a shovel and dig some fresh metals out of whatever rock you're standing on and stuff that in your gun, because it'll probably be faster.



At the end of the day though, gameplay still trumps physics.

[Chuvvy]

It annoys me that they don't call it ammo.

[KalosCast]

MachDelta wrote...

I disagree with the concept of thermal clips cooling over time. A solid chunk of metal (say, copper) can hold a LOT of energy, and dissipating it all into random atmospheres at a rapid rate would not be easy (and maybe not even safe). To even pull a hundred degrees out of a 10cm^3 chunk of copper in under a minute (which is an eternity in a firefight) would require moving so much atmospheric volume you might as well just huff puff and blow your enemies down. And doing it solely on convection? Forget it. You may as well grab a shovel and dig some fresh metals out of whatever rock you're standing on and stuff that in your gun, because it'll probably be faster.

At the end of the day though, gameplay still trumps physics.

You have to remember that the average gameer (if they're even old enough) have had the physics experience of reading the course description in High School and then signing up for an art class instead. This is who you have to make it realistic for.

[Callidus Thorn]

Personally, I don't think they should have changed the system from ME1 at all. I liked having to think during firefights to avoid my weapon overheating (always used sniper rifle, so overheating was an issue), thermal clips seem to be so plentiful that for the most part you can spray bullets all over the place, swap guns, and then continue.

There was nothing more tense in ME1 than being the last squadmember standing, fighting multiple enemies, when your weapon overheats, and I love ME1 for that. Thermal clips just make the guns overpowered, IMO, because you can fire them more rapidly, without any real penalty.

I do like ME2, but this whole thermal clip system just feels like they dumbed the game down.

[Archontor]

I see people complain about how the lore makes no sense but allow me to show you one hypothesis :

Other than VERY high end weapons you woul over heat your weapons and since you're weapon is effectively useless for a fairly large period of time ,a grunt who only carries one weapon is basicaly dissarmed and of course that means they will quite likely be killed before the cool down finishes. Therefore whilst wealthy mercenaries and galactic saviours are inconvenienced the majoraty of the armed forces are better off survival wise.

Modifié par Archontor, 14 juillet 2010 - 09:27 .

[Hoogies123]

I just dont like the idea of not having unlimited ammo. They kinda cheapened the game after ME1.Thermal Clips were a bad idea.

[angj57]

Hoogies123 wrote...

I just dont like the idea of not having unlimited ammo. They kinda cheapened the game after ME1.Thermal Clips were a bad idea.

I feel the opposite way. In Mass Effect 1 I carried around 4 weapons but only used one. In some play throughs I would alternate between 2 for variety.

In Mass Effect 2, during my soldier play through I found a lot of uses for all of my guns. That made gameplay more strategic and interesting. An imrovement in my book.

[rabidhanar]

angj57 wrote...

Hoogies123 wrote...

I just dont like the idea of not having unlimited ammo. They kinda cheapened the game after ME1.Thermal Clips were a bad idea.

I feel the opposite way. In Mass Effect 1 I carried around 4 weapons but only used one. In some play throughs I would alternate between 2 for variety.

In Mass Effect 2, during my soldier play through I found a lot of uses for all of my guns. That made gameplay more strategic and interesting. An imrovement in my book.

Alright, compare that soldier to my adept...I only carry two guns but have powers. I am fighting on insanity against geth and run out of ammo on both my smg (locast) and pistol (predator). My powers are not very effective against shields, my teamates are dead, and both a Geth Prime and 3 normal geth are at my cover....What do I do? In ME1 I wouldn't have this problem, I might overheat my pistol but over time it regens. Not only that but I can switch guns when needed (the problem the developers seem to not notice)

Sadly this has happened before to me as 1 some fights are back to back preventing you from really searching for clips, 2) SMG is the only good thing an adept has for shields, and 3) Teamates die really quickly on insanity.

I know people will say things like use singularity and such but it can be annoying. Also, If I am an infiltrator I chose that clase for SNIPING, not using a smg. I want to roleplay as a sniper using the gun I want to, not be forced to switch after 10 shots (while effective ten shots do not always kill all enemies in a specific fight, I'm looking at you Donovin Hock fight!) my issue might be that I do not taking risks which is why I play the sniper (far in the back where enemies do not shoot you seemed like a good Idea at the time while in reality all enemies know exactly where you are, like you have a homing geth beacon on your armor)

Modifié par rabidhanar, 15 juillet 2010 - 12:03 .

[CosmicTony]

As many others in the thread have suggested; the system should have been hybrid and worked by giving the player the choice to fire until an overload, which varied with skills and mods, and then either use a clip to quickly get you back in the action, or swap weapons till the overload finished. It lets the cautious players play there way, never really running out of ammo. It gives the rest of us options for keeping up the pace when hammering through sections. We can choose to waste some expendables (clips) and keep pushing forward without stopping.

[MonkeyKaboom]

CatatonicMan wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Does it break your immersion, because you can't imagine your super space marine using something as ridiculous as ammo, or does it break your immersion because you don't have your Spectre X weapons crutch anymore?

No. Most of the immersion breaking comes from the retcon of the canon to incorporate the new weapon system, the lack of any actual ammo regeneration (or cool down) that would happen when the clip was not full (even if slow), the fact that the 'universal' clips are in no way universal (they are not shared between weapons), the fact that each different weapon has a different number of reserve clips for no reason, and the fact that the thermal clips are not reusable like they should be (once they cool down). Hell, even the total and complete lack of 'old' weaponry that didn't rely on the thermal clips.

There are probably more issues and inconsistencies in the ammo system, and they all add up into a big immersion-choking miasma. Odd that none of those issues has much to do with the actual ammo use or the inclusion of overpowered weaponry. Oh well.

In short, you're RPG raging...

Its for ease of development.  You might call it lazy.  I call it priorities.  I prefer a more immersing combat system that actually allows classes to become unique and flourish and an epic storyline, as opposed to trivial details like this.  There's only so much time they can devote to balancing and programming.  They already had to rebalance the revamped class structures that were made possible by a redesigned game mechanic.  Your wants are just not that important.

Modifié par MonkeyKaboom, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:08 .

[MonkeyKaboom]

SuperMedbh wrote...

"Retcons Happen"

I'm fairly sure I saw that bumper sticker somewhere. Truthfully, the only thing about the new system that bugs me is the unrealism of searching the battlefield for clips. Why can't I reuse mine? If they're too hot, then why can I reuse the enemies?

But I don't let that keep me up at night. I can't think of a better answer. Maybe they'll have one in ME3

You ever been burnt by red hot metal?  I once had a M240 round casing bounced off the ground and in my sleeve when I was firing from a prone position.  Still have a scar on my arm from it.  That's why you can't just carry around and reuse your own.  Not to mention the fact that its basic shooting technique to just drop your empty magazine and reload.  You never take your eye off target and you never lower your gun.  That's time lost you could be putting rounds downrange.  That's time you have to take to reestablish your target.  Its just bad all around.  That's why you are picking up unused thermal clips from the baddies.  Is it perfectly realistic?  No, but its a game.  I can accept a slightly unrealistic implementation of grabbing enemy clips on the run than a total disregard for proper shooting technique that should be 2nd nature for an established combat hero....