308 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Then your a naive fool if you think honor has any place in politics.

No I´m not.
I´m just annoyed by this mental illness called politics that ruins social behaviour and freedom since millennia.

[Darkannex]

Well, we see how effective a ruler Alistair is if you aren't there to hold his hand (Darkspawn chronicles) Or as someone said "How Alistair made all the wrong choices and effectively killed everyone".



The fact that if you don't make Alistair king, he runs away and becomes a drunkard just reinforces my belief that Alistair is not standing on a moral high ground. He didn't get his way, falls into a depression and slouches off to nurse his hurts in a mug of ale.



He could have stepped up - could have joined arl eamon's army or done something positive, but nope...he becomes a drunk.



Idealism in any extreme is dangerous in a ruler. You can have high hopes, but if your feet aren't on the ground, you're a target. History is full of men with big ideas that fail because their execution is poor. If that is what you consider a good ruler (good morales with no results) then I salute you. Your world must be a lovely one to live in, and I wish the real one was more like it.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

However, I really see no morale issues with the DR - nothing in favor of it, nothing against it. It´s neither right or wrong. It is a matter of indifference to me, so I can only decide based on its use.

Well I do see it as an issue of right and wrong. Is it *right* to save myself or someone else to release back into the world the Old God that I know nearly nothing about except that it came from the Archdemon, and that Morrigan, who would possibly just let the thing loose on people if that were it's "nature". Just because it's purified of the darkspawn taint does not automatically make it good, docile, or harmless.

I think being indifferent to the risks is irresponsible, especially if you are claiming to care about the people. Chosing to accept responsiblity for a risk is one thing, but to ignore the risks because of the benefit is another.

[Darkannex]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon: Alistair does not recruit Howe. He makes a deal with him so he can secure aid against the Blight.

I just stopped believing Alistair was a good guy.

This makes me actually boggle. I agree it was neccessary and proper - but if he made a deal with this devil, and not Loghain...then he's even more self-centered than I thought. He can pardon the person who sacked highever for personal gain (this is widely known by the landsmeet), killing the arl, arlessa in the process and all other family members (including Oren)...but Loghain killed his daddy so off with his head? 

*pats Alistair on the back* yeah - you're not getting in reach of that throne without me or Anora. Ever.

[CalJones]

Darkannex - agree with you on pretty much everything. Same reason why I went from loving Alistair on my first playthrough to allowing Anora to execute him on later runs. He hacked me off that much. Anyway, I've said my piece enough times.

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh, not only does he make a deal with Howe. He makes him his advisor, or so I am led to believe ( have not played Darkspawn Chronicles yet. )

[Darkannex]

CalJones wrote...

Darkannex - agree with you on pretty much everything. Same reason why I went from loving Alistair on my first playthrough to allowing Anora to execute him on later runs. He hacked me off that much. Anyway, I've said my piece enough times.

I don't think I can get to that point. I just let him duel Loghain - because the fact is we're all flawed heroes in this game. His flaw is being naive. We'll just have to beat that out of him XD

I admit...I've been romancing Zev more than Alistair though. I'll politcally wed him...but no more sweet flowers and sloppy lovemaking. 

[Tirigon]

Darkannex wrote...

History is full of men with big ideas that fail because their execution is poor

History is also full of men with bad ideas who are responsible for millions of deaths and incredible suffering. (Stalin, Mao Zedong, the one that´ll earn me Godwin points if I say the name, only to mention a few....)

I prefer the inefficient rulers. They harm few or nobody. The effective ones harm many.

There has yet to be a good ruler in the Real World. I doubt there will ever be one.

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, not only does he make a deal with Howe. He makes him his advisor, or so I am led to believe ( have not played Darkspawn Chronicles yet. )

If that is true, Alistair is probably just as bad as Loghain as ruler.... The difference would be Alistair getting to rule in a time of peace. Good job, team.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

I prefer the inefficient rulers. They harm few or nobody. The effective ones harm many.

So when there is a problem, it is better to do nothing, than to risk screwing up?  That sounds just as harmful to me.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

If that is true, Alistair is probably just as bad as Loghain as ruler.... The difference would be Alistair getting to rule in a time of peace. Good job, team.

Remember, Darkspawn Chronicle is a "could have been" story. It says nothing about the actual events in the story, nor about the actual character of the people involved.

[Darkannex]

Aha Trigon - we get to the core of it. I argue that ineffective rulers indeed cause great harm. N@zism flourished because of the ineffective resistance. Stalinism flourished because there was no ruler stronger than he was to control him. The USSR collapsed eventually due to bankruptcy, among other things. One could argue the lack of a strong ruler doomed it.



As for me? I'd prefer someone who was ultimately a good person, who understands that sometimes bad things have to happen, and that you cannot always choose the most morale path. In this video game world, the ends do not always justify the means, but they sure as hell make the means a lot more acceptably grey.



Note that I never say Loghain should get away scot - free. There was no pardon in my terminology. Yet Alistair gives Howe carte blanche? I think he loses this morality play.

[Darkannex]

Tirigon wrote...

phaonica wrote...

If that is true, Alistair is probably just as bad as Loghain as ruler.... The difference would be Alistair getting to rule in a time of peace. Good job, team.

Remember, Darkspawn Chronicle is a "could have been" story. It says nothing about the actual events in the story, nor about the actual character of the people involved.

My understanding is that the world diverges when your warden dies. Everything up to that point is the same. Everything after is a result of that divergence. It is a 'might have been' but it is highly instructive in the sense that this is how the characters evolve without you there to interfere. 

[Costin_Razvan]

As for me? I'd prefer someone who was ultimately a good person, who understands that sometimes bad things have to happen, and that you cannot always choose the most morale path

Strangely enough. Machiavelli thought the exact same thing. And it is by this thinking that I play the game.

[Darkannex]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for me? I'd prefer someone who was ultimately a good person, who understands that sometimes bad things have to happen, and that you cannot always choose the most morale path

Strangely enough. Machiavelli thought the exact same thing. And it is by this thinking that I play the game.

and of course, Im merely discussing my in game view In real life-I demand a somewhat more rigid set of rules to the governing body. But in a rp sense of mideval times? It's all Grey. 

[Herr Uhl]

Tirigon wrote...

No I´m not.
I´m just annoyed by this mental illness called politics that ruins social behaviour and freedom since millennia.

Because things were a lot better when we lived in tribes led by the one who could whack the others the hardest with a club, or we followed someone who were "ascended from god".

Face it, politics may be bad, but it's much better than the alternatives.

[Costin_Razvan]

Good heart does not equate being willing and able to side with Howe.

[phaonica]

Darkannex wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for me? I'd prefer someone who was ultimately a good person, who understands that sometimes bad things have to happen, and that you cannot always choose the most morale path

Strangely enough. Machiavelli thought the exact same thing. And it is by this thinking that I play the game.

and of course, Im merely discussing my in game view In real life-I demand a somewhat more rigid set of rules to the governing body. But in a rp sense of mideval times? It's all Grey. 

My medieval characters often sympathize with a Machiavellian view. Mostly because there don't tend to be a lot of checks and balances in medieval politics, and in order for sincere and honorable people to stay in power, they have to be firm against people who would take advantage of them.
In real life, I prefer a democracy-based government. Ferelden is an odd hybrid of the two. I like it

[maxernst]

Do we actually know the circumstances under which this deal was made? Maybe Howe defeated Alistair and the only reason he's still alive is because Howe knows he needs him to defeat the Archdemon and protect Howe's interests.

[Darkannex]

Even that scenario does not justify his decision though, or the morality of it. All I have heard is that Ali 'spared' Howe. I will know better when I play tonight. 

Modifié par Darkannex, 18 mai 2010 - 06:52 .

[phaonica]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Alistair has had a short life time of being sheltered and hidden by Eamon, the Chantry, and Duncan and has NO experience handling ANYTHING on his own. It's not entirely his fault he lacks in maturity.

Some could view DAO as Alistair "learning to lead" from his experiences with the PC. Maybe his Loghain fit is the last fit he ever has as he gains experience and wisdom to couple with his already strong sense of morality.

Epilogues in the game say it all: if you harden Alistair he does become a good leader. Especially if he marries Anora. If you don't harden Alistair, but he has positive experiences he turns out OK. If he has bad experiences he winds up drunk or dead.

I just can't blame Alistair for having a good heart but no life experience.

So our Warden is to Alistair as Loghain was to Maric? I like that

Though I can't blame Alistair for having no experiences as a king, it doesn't mean I should go ahead and crown him anyways.

[maxernst]

No? Letting Ferelden fall to the blight is better than making a deal with Howe? I find this odd from a Loghain supporter, given that Loghain either condones or is directly responsible for everything Howe does.