308 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

I execute him.

1) PC doesn't trust this man after all he has done personally to her/him

2) PC thinks he/she is a more competent leader as all of Loghain's plans blow up in his face and he was the one who did the battleplan at Ostagar in the first place.

3) PC either beats him in the duel (or Alistair does if I don't feel like listening to Riordan's "lets recruit him" line) and in her/his opinion, Loghain as a soldier is past his time.

That said I DO NOT like killing him in front of his daughter. That has to be IMO one of the most brutal scenes in the game.

But just killing him? yea i got no problem with that.

[Mike2640]

My HNM pitied him, and wanted to keep him alive, but Alistair, who was pretty much a brother to him by this point, made the call, him or Loghain. Alistair didn't say a word against it when he took vengence upon Howe (even if circumstance required his death anyway), so he felt Alistair deserved the chance himself. He agreed, but made Alistair do the deed himself.  
I was kind of hoping he would change his mind at the last second or something, but that didn't happen, sadly.

[KOKitten]

I executed him in two of my playthroughs (Dwarf Noble and Human Noble). In Dwarf Noble I had Alistair marry Anora. I married Alistair in Human Noble. I let him live in my Dwarf Commoner playthrough and had Alistair marry Anora.

However, I just read "The Stolen Throne," and have a new opinion on Loghain. Maric pretty much wouldn't have survived without him and Ferelden owes him a lot. Plus I can understand Loghain's freakout after reading Cailan's correspondence retrieved at Ostagar.

I've since deleted the endings from my Dwarf Noble and Human Noble and redid the Landsmeet so as to let him live. I married off Alistair to Anora in the Human Noble playthrough and became Chancellor.

Alistair wasn't hardened in the Dwarf Noble playthrough and wouldn't marry Anora so she gets to rule alone. I did ask Anora to spare Alistair's life although the pouty expression on his face almost did him in.

I wish my character could have said to him, "My brother Bhelen killed Trian and had me framed. My father may or may not have been poisoned by Bhelen. I chose to put Bhelen on Orzammar's throne instead of taking my revenge because I felt it was best for my people. Don't lecture me about betrayal. It takes more than blood to be nobility."

[Vicious]

By the way: Alistair shows no compassion and mercy for Loghain. That makes him rather a tyrant than a king. There are other possible punishments besides death penalty.

Wynne actually says as much, not to Alistair, but to the PC. I don't think anyone listens to her though, which is why she always has a huge chip on her shoulder lol

[SOLID_EVEREST]

In my first playthrough, I had no idea Alistair had the b***s to actually kill Loghain. I thought Alistair would've come to his senses when I told him to execute Loghain himself, which made me think of when you tell him to kill Zevran. Anyways, I was so pissed off at Alistair I felt like freaking killing him after that. I never would dream of killing Loghain because of what Riordan pretty much said, and I didn't feel like killing someone who already surrendered. After that scene, I lost all respect for Alistair.

[nos_astra]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

In my first playthrough, I had no idea Alistair had the b***s to actually kill Loghain. I thought Alistair would've come to his senses when I told him to execute Loghain himself, which made me think of when you tell him to kill Zevran. Anyways, I was so pissed off at Alistair I felt like freaking killing him after that. I never would dream of killing Loghain because of what Riordan pretty much said, and I didn't feel like killing someone who already surrendered. After that scene, I lost all respect for Alistair.

Killing Loghain is actually a pretty Loghain thing to do, that's why I have no trouble doing it.

Wait, no trouble is wrong, it does bother me in a way but it's a valid route to take. Plus, Alistair truly believes that Loghain is guilty of treason even if he can't prove it, and I can't prove him wrong (even if I wanted to).

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2010 - 01:25 .

[shedevil3001]

the reason i execute loghain is because his choices wern't just bad but they cost fereldon a great loss which is unforgivable and bearing in mind in this era he would of been hung for his crimes if cailan hadn't of died, but the worst reason is if you spare him he tells you if you ask him that had he of beaten us we would of been killed, so he's no different to alistair, but at least with alistair no matter what our warden does he stands by them proving to be very loyal and trustworthy, which is why i keep him at my side and not loghain as theres no way i could trust a man that abandons his king who was supposed to be his friends and the woman he loved's son, that makes him a monster in my eyes, plus if our warden makes any decions he doesn't like how do we know he wont abandon us and leave our companions and army to die, not a risk i would take.

[Brako Shepard]

Loghain never pretended to ever be Calin's friend. They could never agree opinions from the dtart of Origins, and Loghain didn't mind telling him so.



I admit that he does deserve to die for some of his faults, but he also stands a chance at redeming himself. If you give him the chance and if your a human noble who marries the queen. You will see how much of a good choice he was to keep alive in Awakening.

[AnniLau]

I've spared him once and that was the most I could manage.

Modifié par AnniLau, 11 mai 2010 - 03:51 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

klarabella wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

In my first playthrough, I had no idea Alistair had the b***s to actually kill Loghain. I thought Alistair would've come to his senses when I told him to execute Loghain himself, which made me think of when you tell him to kill Zevran. Anyways, I was so pissed off at Alistair I felt like freaking killing him after that. I never would dream of killing Loghain because of what Riordan pretty much said, and I didn't feel like killing someone who already surrendered. After that scene, I lost all respect for Alistair.

Killing Loghain is actually a pretty Loghain thing to do, that's why I have no trouble doing it.

Wait, no trouble is wrong, it does bother me in a way but it's a valid route to take. Plus, Alistair truly believes that Loghain is guilty of treason even if he can't prove it, and I can't prove him wrong (even if I wanted to).

If you are truely a grey warden, you would spare Loghain. Riordan has more wisdom about being a grey warden than you or Alistair put together, and even he wants to spare Loghain. If you kill Loghain, you are being the worst grey warden ever. I mean why can't you accept Loghain's surrender since a lot of grey wardens were given the title as somewhat of a punishment i.e. Daveth, City Elf, and Dwarf Commoner. I don't really care if Loghain would kill the Warden or not, but he is not a grey warden so he doesn't have to defend that whole oath of "everything it takes to win." I think even Levi talks about Loghain during the Warden's Tower quest.

[Der Kirk]

I was originally going to be the good guy and let Loghain live, but then Allistair reminded me of all that he had done. Loghain was resposible for the deaths of: Cailan, all the wardens with Duncan, Duncan, the couslands, a large portion of the army, and everyone killed in the civil war. I also know that I am missing some. Loghain also sold the elves into slavery, which was a jerk move.

[nos_astra]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
If you are truely a grey warden, you would spare Loghain.

Here I thought it was called the Right of Conscription not the Duty of Conscription.

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
Riordan has more wisdom about being a grey warden than you or Alistair put together, and even he wants to spare Loghain.

And in his infinite wisdom he leaves the decision to me? Obviously recruiting Loghain is not important enough.

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...If you kill Loghain, you are being the worst grey warden ever.

Am I now? And should I even care? Btw. my job is to end the Blight, not to forgive Loghain. I don't even know if I can trust Loghain at that point.

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
I mean why can't you accept Loghain's surrender since a lot of grey wardens were given the title as somewhat of a punishment i.e. Daveth, City Elf, and Dwarf Commoner.

None of them are guilty of allowing the Blight to spread all over the country, thus making it more and more difficult to defeat it.

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...
I don't really care if Loghain would kill the Warden or not, but he is not a grey warden so he doesn't have to defend that whole oath of "everything it takes to win."

So? I actually do care. Survival is a means to ending the Blight, you know.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2010 - 10:11 .

[Der Kirk]

Maybe he meant the execution as a test because he sees potential in you. It could be his attempt to evaluate your warden, which is why he withholds the information he does.

[Nerdage]

Massamies wrote...

Riordan should have talked about it before the Landsmeet, even if he was not sure about availability of the ingredients, it was stupid to bring up at last moment. Both options can be logical. Some people may not trust him or his judgement. Also some people might not see his sudden conversion from you being Orlesian puppetmaster to best hope of Ferelden when his life is at your hands, genuine. He might be too big risk. Also knowing that Loghain is only potential recruit is meta-game, from in game perspective you could think that you could recruit just some other good fighter, at that point it shouldn't have been that hard to find some one to volunteer to help to stop the blight.

Seems Riordan's full of bad decisons. If he'd the foresight to describe the whole sacrifice situation at Eamon's estate then Alistair may have been talked into backing down, though I'm not sure. More than that, though, after the landsmeet he goes off scouting the horde on his own despite not knowing whether or not the only other wardens in Ferelden even know how to end a blight. But I guess that's to accomodate the story.

Plus riding the archdemon was a pretty stupid thing to do.

[Addai]

KOKitten wrote...

However, I just read "The Stolen Throne," and have a new opinion on Loghain. Maric pretty much wouldn't have survived without him and Ferelden owes him a lot. Plus I can understand Loghain's freakout after reading Cailan's correspondence retrieved at Ostagar.

The Stolen Throne increased my dislike for Loghain.  It allows you to see him as more of a tragic figure, rather than just teh eevuul.  However, it only shows that his hatred of Orlais has become a dark spiral that nearly consumes everything, not just himself. Contrast this to his father.  What would his father say about his actions in Origins?

As far as owing people, Loghain would be dead if not for Rowan.  Yet he betrayed her son, too, not just Maric's.

[Ash Wind]

Addai67 wrote...

KOKitten wrote...

However, I just read "The Stolen Throne," and have a new opinion on Loghain. Maric pretty much wouldn't have survived without him and Ferelden owes him a lot. Plus I can understand Loghain's freakout after reading Cailan's correspondence retrieved at Ostagar.

The Stolen Throne increased my dislike for Loghain.  It allows you to see him as more of a tragic figure, rather than just teh eevuul.  However, it only shows that his hatred of Orlais has become a dark spiral that nearly consumes everything, not just himself. Contrast this to his father.  What would his father say about his actions in Origins?

As far as owing people, Loghain would be dead if not for Rowan.  Yet he betrayed her son, too, not just Maric's.

I agree with you, DA:O paints him as some 'I regret I have but one life to give to my country,' patriot, but I saw none of that in The Stolen Throne. He despises the Orlesians (no doubt, rightfully) because of what they did to his mother, and he protects Maric because its his father's dying wish.
And given his feelings for Rowan, the Ostagar battle shows him in an even colder and evil light given he premeditated her only son's death. My opinion of him went down after reading TST further; in DA:O I could see him as a fanatical patriot making horrible choices but wanting to protect Ferelden... but after it, he's just a DB.

[Carol L S]

I had to kill him.  One time I let him live and Alistair threw such a fit and was so upset I felt bad and reloaded the game! 

[CalJones]

Loghain would have died were it not for Rowan but he hauled Maric's arse out of the fire a few times after that. Alistair might curse and snarl, but he would never have been born at all had it not been for Loghain.

Admittedly Loghain was an unwilling participant at first, but what I got from the book was that he started to care a great deal about Fereldan after a while - enough that he'd give up the woman he loved for the good of the country.

I don't believe that Cailan's death was premeditated, either - I saw it as a decision made on the spur of the moment, and not made lightly. (See David Gaider's second post here).



As for Alistair's fit, it didn't make me feel guilty - it had the opposite effect - that of making me go from liking Alistair to wanting to garrote him with Sten's jockstrap.

[maxernst]

CalJones wrote...

The irony is that Duncan himself was conscripted into the Wardens as a punishment. (The particularls of that are in The Calling, if you're interested).

Yes, but Duncan did not believe that the Grey Wardens were agents of Orlais out to conquer and oppress his country, nor had he attempted to eradicate them.  I don't see why the fact that he's lost a combat to you makes him magically reject all his old beliefs and adopt all new ones.  He thinks that Orlais (and by illogical extension, the Grey Wardens) is a bigger danger to Ferelden than the Blight.  And even if he were to be convinced otherwise here and now--what if the Archdemon decides to head for Orlais instead of Ferelden?  You really think Loghain will be willing to risk his life for Orlais?  A Grey Warden's first commitment must be to fighting Darkspawn wherever they are, regardless of national loyalties.  A man cannot serve two masters.

And no, I don't believe the Joining changes people that much and that quickly. After all, Alistair is able to abandon the Wardens and he actually believed in the cause.

Sorry--if I had an option to sentence him to hard labor rebuilding Lothering or sell him into slavery in Tevinter, I might consider it.  But Loghain has already betrayed one commander on the battlefield and I'm not going into battle with a known traitor in my midst.  He just isn't worth the risk.  My PC just isn't that trusting, not after what Howe did to his family.

Now, Ser Cauthrien...oh, if perchance she is brought up on charges for her role in Loghain's crimes, I would gladly welcome her to the Wardens. 

edited to add:  RP it your way.  It's not my intention to dictate your choices, but it irks me when people claim that there's only one good path or only one true "Grey Warden" path.  Sure, IF my PC knew that a Warden had to be sacrificed and that Loghain would be loyal and willing to be that sacrifice, he might be willing to make Loghain a warden.  But then, if my character knew Alistair would abandon the Wardens at that point and that he was making a choice between Alistair & Loghain, there's no way he'd choose Loghain--Alistair's the better fighter.

Modifié par maxernst, 13 mai 2010 - 01:25 .

[Sbri]

My City Elf killed him personally, while picturing the faces for the family and friends he sold into slavery. My Human Noble killed him herself for his crimes against Ferelden. My Mage let him because she didn't trust him and valued Alistair. My Dalish Elf and Dwarf Commoner spare him as they feel his experience as a leader and general were of more value in the upcoming fight. I think my Dwarf Noble will kill him, as Bhelen shows that you don't generally leave an enemy at your back in their society.

[CalJones]

You're reading too much into the letters. Removing Anora is Eamon's suggestion, not Cailan's (there's no evidence to suggest Cailan would have agreed with Eamon). Nothing hints that Cailan thought Anora or Loghain were a liability.

The letters to the Empress do suggest an "alliance" would have been attempted (again, there is no evidence to say Cailan would have married her - though that would have been the easiest way to secure such an alliance in historical terms. But that is conjecture).

If you've read The Calling then you'd know having anything to do with Orlais is very, very bad. I suppose it's a matter of perspective but when I saw the documents I thought Loghain made the right choice by leaving Cailan to die - Cailan was the liability, not Loghain. My personal viewpoint, of course.

If you're doing a redemption playthrough then you're right in sparing Loghain. Just as if you would be justified in executing him for a revenge playthrough.