308 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

I have already made clear everywhere that I hate Loghain, but this time that´s not the reason I would kill him.



I would recommend executing him simply because he would do the same with you - if you don´t get enough votes he actually demands that the Warden, Alistair and Eamon are taken out to be executed and only Eamon´s rebellion saves you.



Why should I have mercy with an enemy if this enemy doesn´t show mercy towards me?

[Imperator_Valentine]

In my first playthrough HN I executed Loghain, no questions asked. I mean by screwing up the battle plan he caused the death and destruction of his king, the army and the Wardens! Also his misguided attempts at power-politics did little to endear him to me.



However Return to Ostagar considerably changed my judgment in my second playthrough with the same setup. The knight of Cailan's bodyguard makes it very clear that in this battle there could be no victory and that even Cailan knew it. This lead to a complete reevaluation on my part. Cailan now appeared to me to be exactly the foolish youth, blinded by the pursuit of glory, that Loghain accused him of being. Instead of waiting for sufficient reinforcements (the Orleaisian Wardens, Arl Eamons men etc.) he hastily engaged the enemy and offered battle even when he knew there could be only defeat, thereby dooming himself, his army and unleashing chaos on the country.



On the other hand Loghains decision not to engage in the fight and salvage his part of the army now made perfect sense to me. His moves afterwards where still full of blunders and crimes but I could at least acknowledge him as a principled, if unscrupulous patriot who is willing to do anything for his country to succeed. Thus I usually give him a chance of redemption, especially since like so many others I was appalled at the sight of having him killed right in front of his daughter. Oh and I was deeply annoyed by Alistairs simple minded and petty bloodlust. "Oh if you don't kill this man then everything be damned. Our friendship, Ferelden, all of Thedas for all I care".



So as a rule of thumb (if I'm not playing a city elf by chance) Loghain now lives and Alistair can go sulk in some rundown tavern, on the throne or awaiting the executioners axe, depending on what game route I choose...

[Cenwyn]

I battle him then let Alistair execute him. I can see why Loghain did what he did at Ostagar and  Cailan for all his best efforts did not seem to take the Blight too seriously. But I cannot justify Loghain pulling out regardless of his reasons. That jackass would destroy all who stand against him so why let him live? He already tried to assassinate Alistair and I so that should tell you how much of a coward he is. Typical ruler he would have to send someone to do his dirty work instead growing a set of steel balls and take us out himself. 

Did I say how much I hate that man? Damn coward! Hmmm I wonder if there is a mod where you can have in drawn and quartered too? Maybe put his head on a pike at the Gates of Denerim?hmmmm............

Tirigon said it perfectly above as I quote her “Why should I have mercy with an enemy if this enemy doesn´t show mercy towards me?”

 

Modifié par Cenwyn, 14 mai 2010 - 01:23 .

[old book]

Yup, Trigon had a big part of it right imo. Loghain would not spare you, even when (according to Gaider) he knows he's wrong. Proving my character has the moral high ground by sparing Loghain doesn't appeal unless I'm playing a near-saint or an idealistic kid.



Also, whatever his reasons, Loghain sold his people into slavery, sparked a civil war leading to mostly off screen deaths, used poison to remove a political rival leading to more deaths, and gave power to a corrupt sadist like Howe. "Good intentions" don't cut it, and neither does telling me the that the ends justify the means. Loghain's a pretty good example that "Whatever it takes" is a morally bankrupt philosophy; sometimes the price of victory is too high. Sometimes, in Loghain's case, the man claiming to be making the hard choices is just flat out making absolutely wrong choices. Only a few of my characters could see their way clear to sparing him after that.



It just pisses me off that I don't get to tell him why, exactly, he has to die.

[Willowhugger]

It just pisses me off that I don't get to tell him why, exactly, he has to die.

Look at the bright side, Loghain pretty obviously knows why at the end.

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain while being a crazy Booger is not entirely without some redeeming qualiites. Take him with you to hear his banter and you get an amazing insight into his mind that will change your view on him ( speciffically with Dog)
However I think many of us spared him for the acheivement at least i did.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 14 mai 2010 - 03:04 .

[sylvanaerie]

I can't even spare him for the achievement. The one time I did was to chat with him in camp and see if maybe there was a reason I would want to try for the Redeemer ending. But douchebaggery (yes I know that's not a word but its the only one that fits in my mind) isn't an endearing quality. I reloaded and Queen o' Hearts'ed him.

I did get the Recruiter achievement though for my troubles.

[jpdipity]

I don’t spare Loghain. I likely won’t do it for the achievement either – I simply cannot justify it.



I have spared others and allowed them to redeem themselves in return for helping me fight the blight. So, despite how great his crimes were my PC would be willing to spare Loghain except for one issue – he is simply too big of a threat.



None of the others posed nearly as great a danger to my PC as Loghain. He is still very respected and has many supporters. If he chose to turn on me, he could make things difficult for my PC and/or the new King. Loghain has already shown what lengths he will go to press his own agenda. My PC simply is unwilling at this critical time to take even the slightest chance that such a powerful adversary may betray the PC either now or in the future.



So, all of my PCs from every origin see him as a very real threat and eliminate Loghain swiftly.

[Finiffa]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can't even spare him for the achievement. The one time I did was to chat with him in camp and see if maybe there was a reason I would want to try for the Redeemer ending. But douchebaggery (yes I know that's not a word but its the only one that fits in my mind) isn't an endearing quality. I reloaded and Queen o' Hearts'ed him.
I did get the Recruiter achievement though for my troubles.

I did exactly the same. I talked to him at camp and got so pissed I reloaded and had Alistair cut off his head.....and I didnt even romance Alistair that time. There is no way I can find a good reason to spare him, even after reading all arguments for and against his execution.

[old book]

Well, I can see reasons to spare him. He offers his respects in front of his suporters. He's a hero to the people. He did all he did thinking he was making the right choices for his people, at least until he realized that this was a real blight. He doesn't want the Archdemon to win any more than you do. Mercy is the "good" choice at least from one point of view. None of which makes a difference to most of my characters; he brought slavery and death to many. Smeg to the fantasy trope that his life means more than theirs just because he gets screen time.

[Cenwyn]

Another reason not to spare Loghain. When he pulled out of Ostagar, he also directly blamed us Wardens for the lost of Ostagar, the defeat and death of Cailan. So as Alistair stated we were hunted and slandered. At the Landsmeet he still continues to blame and undermine us because of his cowardliness. Not to mention he tries to convince everyone that we have mindswaggled Anora. Granted yes he admits to torture and slavery but once again the man shows his true character by having no balls. He hides behind his wrongdoings and paranoia as justification for his actions. I can forgive a lot of things of people but he is where I draw the line.



Karma is a ****, Alistair and I are more than willing to oblige Her with his death. (Rendon Howe was also a pleasure killing too)



Okay, now that is off my chest am counting down the hours till I am off work in corporate America and killing darkspawn.

[lovgreno]

A Grey Wardens job isn't to be a champion of justice, it's to stop the blight. Wich Alistair conveniently forgets so he doesn't have to take the hard decision. The wardens needs the immediate political support of Anora and the nobles more than they need revenge so they just have to swallow their pride about it. But that's just how I would reason about it, different wardens with different origins would of course make different choices based on their pasts.



Besides the worst punishment ever might be to truly realise what a idiot and jerk you have been, Loghain deserves to suffer that for a long time.

[bzombo]

Vicious wrote...

If you are a hero who always takes the good path, you will give him a second chance and spare him. He makes good on that second chance.

If you are a pragmatist, you might spare him. Or might not. Weigh your options and decide if he is worth the risk.

If your actions are guided by emotions, then kill him.

If you are an evil jerk, kill him and laugh maniacally as Anora dies inside.

It's really simple. Letting Loghain live is not the 'evil' choice as many claim, it is in fact the opposite. You are simultaneously keeping Alistair out of harm's way and keeping your ranks strong with Wardens.


And if you are a true hero you let Loghain live, and refuse to let him die killing the Archdemon, taking the final blow yourself.


Precious few true heroes around, however.

i completely disagree. loghain needs to pay for the thousands he has
murdered. he gets the death penalty from me every time. the game is morally vague. it's not about the good thing to do. it's about the right thing to do. loghain should pay. alistair and the warden pay a steep price because of loghain. now he has to pay for his crimes. regicide should be nothing short of death.

[bzombo]

lovgreno wrote...

A Grey Wardens job isn't to be a champion of justice, it's to stop the blight. Wich Alistair conveniently forgets so he doesn't have to take the hard decision. The wardens needs the immediate political support of Anora and the nobles more than they need revenge so they just have to swallow their pride about it. But that's just how I would reason about it, different wardens with different origins would of course make different choices based on their pasts.

Besides the worst punishment ever might be to truly realise what a idiot and jerk you have been, Loghain deserves to suffer that for a long time.

knowing alistair will leave, which he tells you flat out, should make the decision easier. why chase away a great warden for someone who wanted you dead and will not increase the number of wardens? on a more practical side, loghain has less effective years left since he is much older than both alistair and the warden. so, alistair will be able to provide more years fighting the darkspawn than loghain can.

[lovgreno]

bzombo wrote...

knowing alistair will leave, which he tells you flat out, should make the decision easier. why chase away a great warden for someone who wanted you dead and will not increase the number of wardens? on a more practical side, loghain has less effective years left since he is much older than both alistair and the warden. so, alistair will be able to provide more years fighting the darkspawn than loghain can.

It's more about getting Anoras support actualy, she have been a excelent ruler of Ferelden for years. Also it's necesary to show that all must put down their grudges, atleast untill the blight is over. Only a united Ferelden can defeat the darkspawn and we barely avoided civil war before. In the bigger picture both Alistair and Loghain are expendable while unity is not. I wouldn't mind executing him for the sake of justice after the battle is won however, preferably after a trial that shows all his crimes in detail.

[sylvanaerie]

lovgreno wrote...

bzombo wrote...

knowing alistair will leave, which he tells you flat out, should make the decision easier. why chase away a great warden for someone who wanted you dead and will not increase the number of wardens? on a more practical side, loghain has less effective years left since he is much older than both alistair and the warden. so, alistair will be able to provide more years fighting the darkspawn than loghain can.

It's more about getting Anoras support actualy, she have been a excelent ruler of Ferelden for years. Also it's necesary to show that all must put down their grudges, atleast untill the blight is over. Only a united Ferelden can defeat the darkspawn and we barely avoided civil war before. In the bigger picture both Alistair and Loghain are expendable while unity is not. I wouldn't mind executing him for the sake of justice after the battle is won however, preferably after a trial that shows all his crimes in detail.

Anora's support is not contingent upon Loghain's life.  I have made her solo ruler on a couple of my games and still executed Loghain.  Same effect whether he lives or dies.  Ultimately her biggest motivator is keeping that throne, not keeping Daddy Dearest alive.  Doesn't mean I like killing him in front of her all the same but she steps OVER his cooling corpse to grab at the throne after the deed is done.

[Sabariel]

I usually execute Loghain because I don't want Alistair to leave plus... Loghain kinda sucks in battle. I felt that I wasted a lot of time keeping him alive. Not to mention all the horrible stuff he did...



So far, I've only spared him once to get the trophy.

[maxernst]

sylvanaerie wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

bzombo wrote...

knowing alistair will leave, which he tells you flat out, should make the decision easier. why chase away a great warden for someone who wanted you dead and will not increase the number of wardens? on a more practical side, loghain has less effective years left since he is much older than both alistair and the warden. so, alistair will be able to provide more years fighting the darkspawn than loghain can.

It's more about getting Anoras support actualy, she have been a excelent ruler of Ferelden for years. Also it's necesary to show that all must put down their grudges, atleast untill the blight is over. Only a united Ferelden can defeat the darkspawn and we barely avoided civil war before. In the bigger picture both Alistair and Loghain are expendable while unity is not. I wouldn't mind executing him for the sake of justice after the battle is won however, preferably after a trial that shows all his crimes in detail.

Anora's support is not contingent upon Loghain's life.  I have made her solo ruler on a couple of my games and still executed Loghain.  Same effect whether he lives or dies.  Ultimately her biggest motivator is keeping that throne, not keeping Daddy Dearest alive.  Doesn't mean I like killing him in front of her all the same but she steps OVER his cooling corpse to grab at the throne after the deed is done.

She's always a little chilly to you afterward, but Anora is a pragmatist. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If you tell Anora pre-landsmeet that you plan on depriving Daddy of his noggin, she will betray you at landsmeet even if you agree to support her. So Daddy's like is cruicial, if she knows about it before hand.



I don't find it cold that she immediately turns to grab for the throne after you kill Loggy. You just killed her father in front of her. If she doesn't grab that throne, for all she knows, she will be next. Daddy will have died in vain.

[sylvanaerie]

maxernst wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

bzombo wrote...

knowing alistair will leave, which he tells you flat out, should make the decision easier. why chase away a great warden for someone who wanted you dead and will not increase the number of wardens? on a more practical side, loghain has less effective years left since he is much older than both alistair and the warden. so, alistair will be able to provide more years fighting the darkspawn than loghain can.

It's more about getting Anoras support actualy, she have been a excelent ruler of Ferelden for years. Also it's necesary to show that all must put down their grudges, atleast untill the blight is over. Only a united Ferelden can defeat the darkspawn and we barely avoided civil war before. In the bigger picture both Alistair and Loghain are expendable while unity is not. I wouldn't mind executing him for the sake of justice after the battle is won however, preferably after a trial that shows all his crimes in detail.

Anora's support is not contingent upon Loghain's life.  I have made her solo ruler on a couple of my games and still executed Loghain.  Same effect whether he lives or dies.  Ultimately her biggest motivator is keeping that throne, not keeping Daddy Dearest alive.  Doesn't mean I like killing him in front of her all the same but she steps OVER his cooling corpse to grab at the throne after the deed is done.

She's always a little chilly to you afterward, but Anora is a pragmatist. 

Yep.  I don't disparage that, I actually adore pragmatists and by this point once her father is dead Anora really has ONLY her throne left.  I was actually moved to let her keep it on my last playthrough with my HNF and kept Alistair for the wardens. NEVER EVER EVER going to subject myself to that speech of hers at the Denerim gates again though.  Just going to have to esc that thing.  My ears are still bleeding from it

[Costin_Razvan]

i completely disagree. loghain needs to pay for the thousands he has
murdered. he gets the death penalty from me every time. the game is morally vague. it's not about the good thing to do. it's about the right thing to do. loghain should pay. alistair and the warden pay a steep price because of loghain. now he has to pay for his crimes. regicide should be nothing short of death.

Many that live deserve death, many that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so quick to deal death in judgement, not even the very wise see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey.

Just my reply to this thread. The question about sparring Loghain or not can be summed up VERY simply for most people: "How much do you like Alistair" 

And before any idiot comes in and say that they don't base their decision about Loghain because of Alistair do please remember in your nug sized brains that I said MOST, not ALL.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 12:11 .

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Just my reply to this thread. The question about sparring Loghain or not can be summed up VERY simply for most people: "How much do you like Alistair"

This is especially true for those who hate Alistair and spare Loghain, because it is the only chance to kill Alistair.

[Costin_Razvan]

 The same can be said for Alistair fangirls Tirigon.