308 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Just my reply to this thread. The question about sparring Loghain or not can be summed up VERY simply for most people: "How much do you like Alistair"

This is especially true for those who hate Alistair and spare Loghain, because it is the only chance to kill Alistair.

And both reasons are infantile from my perspective.

[Swoo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Many that live deserve death, many that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so quick to deal death in judgement, not even the very wise see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey.

Just my reply to this thread. The question about sparring Loghain or not can be summed up VERY simply for most people: "How much do you like Alistair" 

Well, that's basically all it comes down for my Warden. He's not a Saint, and has made some self-serving decisions in the past, and much like the precident set with Jowan from the very beginning in the Circle Tower, I can't betray him by siding with Loghain. It's a shame too because the more I find out about him the more I think he deserves the second chance the Grey Wardens can give him, but I just seem to find it impossible to take that high ground when the time comes.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Just my reply to this thread. The question about sparring Loghain or not can be summed up VERY simply for most people: "How much do you like Alistair"

This is especially true for those who hate Alistair and spare Loghain, because it is the only chance to kill Alistair.

And both reasons are infantile from my perspective.

Not necessarily. Say you (as the Warden) are in love with Alistair or best-friends with him. You will be less likely to save a man who committed treason if it means driving off someone you care about. Conversely, if you hate Alistair then you may be willing to save a man you think doesn't deserve death. Besides, with that option, neither man dies (at least neither do if you save Ali).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

In the end, the choice to spare or kill Loghain comes down to my individual character and how they view things, not who I like better. Because there are valid reasons for chosing either option at Landsmeet that do not involve a love/hate match.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
Not necessarily. Say you (as the Warden) are in love with Alistair or best-friends with him. You will be less likely to save a man who committed treason if it means driving off someone you care about. Conversely, if you hate Alistair then you may be willing to save a man you think doesn't deserve death. Besides, with that option, neither man dies (at least neither do if you save Ali).

What I meant is players doing this.
As in players who hate Loghain as a character or love Alistair, so won't even try to consider sparing Loghain. Or players who hate Alistair, so can't wait to get rid of him.
I find these reasons, metagaming wise, infantile (though I guess still fun, so who am I to judge).

In-game logic is different.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What I meant is players doing this.
As in players who hate Loghain as a character or love Alistair, so won't even try to consider sparing Loghain. Or players who hate Alistair, so can't wait to get rid of him.
I find these reasons, metagaming wise, infantile (though I guess still fun, so who am I to judge).

In-game logic is different.

Since I'm one who never spares Loghain, I'll explain- not that I really have to.

It is game-breaking illogic to me that Loghain should turn on a dime and become a docile Grey Warden after all you've been through in the game.  His crimes are also too heinous not to punish.  I went through once and spared him just to see the scenes following, and it felt so absurd and unreal to me that it wasn't even playing my character anymore.  I have played a range of things in the game, including many "evil" options, but this just seems stupid to me.  I'm not going to force myself to play something that makes no sense, just because.

Ever consider that Alistair fangirls may play the way they do not just out of an infantile attachment to his character but because we agree with his point of view?  Which is also why we like the character so much?

Anyway, I don't expect Loghain fans to agree.  That's the beauty of a single-player game- you don't have to.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mai 2010 - 03:16 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ever consider that Alistair fangirls may play the way they do not just out of an infantile attachment to his character but because we agree with his point of view? Which is also why we like the character so much?

You will have to excuse me if I don't believe you on that. As blademaster7 put it quite nicely in another thread "How many of you reloaded the landsmeet because you initially thought it would be a cool idea to have Loghain in your party? I know most of you did."

Oh not saying you do that specifically, but I know a great deal of people base that decision due to Alistair alone, as do a great deal of people do regarding the Collector Base in Mass Effect 2 due to Tali.

I find it somewhat weird how a few pixels can influence your decisions. Sure you are making a decision for another few pixels, but it's still a heavily influenced decision.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 05:55 .

[Caldarin V]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What I meant is players doing this.
As in players who hate Loghain as a character or love Alistair, so won't even try to consider sparing Loghain. Or players who hate Alistair, so can't wait to get rid of him.
I find these reasons, metagaming wise, infantile (though I guess still fun, so who am I to judge).

In-game logic is different.

Since I'm one who never spares Loghain, I'll explain- not that I really have to.

It is game-breaking illogic to me that Loghain should turn on a dime and become a docile Grey Warden after all you've been through in the game.  His crimes are also too heinous not to punish.  I went through once and spared him just to see the scenes following, and it felt so absurd and unreal to me that it wasn't even playing my character anymore.  I have played a range of things in the game, including many "evil" options, but this just seems stupid to me.  I'm not going to force myself to play something that makes no sense, just because.

Ever consider that Alistair fangirls may play the way they do not just out of an infantile attachment to his character but because we agree with his point of view?  Which is also why we like the character so much?

Anyway, I don't expect Loghain fans to agree.  That's the beauty of a single-player game- you don't have to.

but I Think the joining is an eye opening experience; like you're not sure there's even an arch demon, and then all of a sudden, you know for sure; you can sense the taint and the darkspawn

after knowing for sure because of the joining, I doubt anybody would be able to deny the Warden's mission

[nos_astra]

Caldarin V wrote...
but I Think the joining is an eye opening experience; like you're not sure there's even an arch demon, and then all of a sudden, you know for sure; you can sense the taint and the darkspawn

after knowing for sure because of the joining, I doubt anybody would be able to deny the Warden's mission.

Oh, eye opening indeed but especially for Loghain who was in complete denial of the Wardens' purpose and the Blight for too long.

I very much doubt it enforces unconditional loyality from someone who was determined to kill you before. Also, Loghain gave up his ignorance that this a Blight before the Landsmeet, so the eye opening may be a bit ... less eye opening.

In fact this is the way I roleplayed sparing Loghain on my female Cousland. Show him what a complete idiot he was, put him in your shoes. Alistair left, everything turned out well, but my HNF wasn't happy and paid a heavy price for it. Loghain died a hero, Anora was queen and ... well, she was furious (about Alistair, about herself) and lonely and sad and couldn't help wonder what if...

KoP pointed out that sparing Loghain could be an option if your character hero worshipped him and is determined to allow their hero to redeem himself. It's entirely possible, even Alistair is a bit of a Loghain fan at Ostagar.

I need a roleplaying reason to spare Loghain because I (the player) would probably neither kill him on the spot nor recruit him, given only the choice kill or recruit I would most definitely NOT recruit him, so he dies per default in my games.Easy for me because I let Alistair duel him anyway. It's a nice twist that killing Loghain is a very Loghain thing to do. Oh, the irony.

Loghain's character simply doesn't appeal to me, I read the Stolen Throne and
my dislike didn't abate much. I'm also not really fond of the Grey Warden attitude either - kill innocents, recruit murderers, be badass. Nooo, make the hard decisions if it's really necessary but a bit of Alistair's idealism would do them good.

@ Costin_Razvan
And your decisions are not clouded by your dislike for Alistair or your love for Loghain? You are simply the other side of the coin.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 mai 2010 - 07:58 .

[Caldarin V]

See, the more I think about Loghain's character, the more I realize he's like he wardens in many ways, but lacking certain information and a little different in motivations; the wardens want to keep Thedas safe, Loghain wants to protect Ferelden. At no point does it seem like he views his ruling as anythign beyond his duty

as Hobbes pointed out in his Leviathan, the supreme ruler should be one who does not want the power, but rather one who has it forced upon him

[Costin_Razvan]

And your decisions are not clouded by your dislike for Alistair or your love for Loghain? You are simply the other side of the coin.

Love for Loghain? Dislike for Alistair?. It's quaint for you to assume that based on the fact I have defended Loghain tooth and bone on this forum or the fact I called Alistair an immature selfish ******. ( Which I still think he is by the way. )

However that doesn't mean I dislike him, quite the opposite I find his humor quite enjoyable, and even though I don't particularly care about his love for Duncan, I still try and be nice to him.

You will find the vast majority of people who spared Loghain either married hardened Alistair to Anora or let him go. ( With higher percentage of marrying to Anora ), truthfully I think they make a rather cute couple. I even romanced Alistair on elf, my secondary cannon character. A few did it just to kill Alistair, but only a few.

Regarding Loghain. I appreciate him as a character, as I appreciate Alistair. I don't have time for hate or love in a video game, in fact I am quite disturbed by how strong feelings characters can evoke in a game. At the end of the day they are pixels, period.

A last note: Most of us that do spare Loghain don't do it on every single of our playthroughs. We are not obsessed over it, as you Alistair fangirls are about killing him. Even KoP has killed Loghain and made Ali king in his playthroughs, but I see many women repeating over and over and OVER again how they kill Loghain and can't even comprehend sparring him. It's not healthy to be stuck in a single mindset and not be able to move from it in a video game, let alone real life.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[blademaster7]

In my first playthough I executed him. He left my PC to die at the Tower of Ishal and then he send assassins after me. The bastard needed to die by my sword after what he did to me.

I had no metagame knowledge at the time and no clue whatsoever that Alistair would leave if I tried to recruit Loghain. And I certainly did not know about the archdemon secret. I just went with what my insticts told me.

I admit that recruiting Loghain and letting him kill the archdemon is probably my favorite way of saving Ferelden. When I took him to the archdemon with me and he volunteered to take the blow, then my opinion of him changed completely. Now he's probably one of my favorite companions.

But as a RPG fan I try to avoid metagaming as much as possible. Even when knowing all the possible outcomes of the landsmeet, I would always consider Loghain's execution as the right thing to do.

Modifié par blademaster7, 15 mai 2010 - 08:28 .

[Swoo]

Addai67 wrote...
It is game-breaking illogic to me that Loghain should turn on a dime and become a docile Grey Warden after all you've been through in the game.  His crimes are also too heinous not to punish.  I went through once and spared him just to see the scenes following, and it felt so absurd and unreal to me that it wasn't even playing my character anymore.  I have played a range of things in the game, including many "evil" options, but this just seems stupid to me.  I'm not going to force myself to play something that makes no sense, just because.

I've never read the DA books so I know I'm missing A LOT of his fleshing out, but my take that I always held with him was he is all about duty. IF he became a Grey Warden, then I figured his sudden turn was him redirecting that stubborn zealotry to Ferelden to the Wardens afterwards. In fact, I would think if he had joined earlier in his life he would have flourished to the very top based on the Warden's main 'rule' that you do whatever it takes to win.

Not that he ever gets the chance with me, he's dogmeat the moment after every duel, but I play my guy a little selfish I guess and back my friends even if it's not the best decision, like with Jowan.

[phaonica]

I prefer to save Loghain in my playthroughs, and I adore Alistair.



For all that Loghain repeatedly tried to kill me, it never had anything to do with me, it always had to do with his mistrusting the Wardens. His trying to kill my characters was never personal, and I never took it personally. And if I were to venture to take it personally on behalf of the Wardens... He didn't know any better than I did that the wardens are required to end the Blight, and I actually find his mistrust of the wardens to be understandable in the scheme of things.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 The same can be said for Alistair fangirls Tirigon. 

I do not think so. If you want to spare Alistair it makes sense to have him marry Anora or you (when you´re human noble) and recruit Loghain, so Loghain dies when killing the Archdemon and you and Alistair both survive.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A last note: Most of us that do spare Loghain don't do it on every single of our playthroughs. We are not obsessed over it, as you Alistair fangirls are about killing him. Even KoP has killed Loghain and made Ali king in his playthroughs, but I see many women repeating over and over and OVER again how they kill Loghain and can't even comprehend sparring him. It's not healthy to be stuck in a single mindset and not be able to move from it in a video game, let alone real life.

That is true, and in fact it´s the reason my City Elf rogue will spare Loghain and got Alistair to -91 approval - because I wanted to try something else.
But from a morale point of view I think sparing Loghain is very hard to justify. Sure, he can "REDEEM" himself. But I always wonder whether he gave that chance to the dead at Ostagar, to his king, to the enslaved elves, to the deads in the civil war etc...

[Costin_Razvan]

Sigh...we have been through all this 1000 times.

Ostagar was not winnable, or even if it was it would been a Pyhrric victory, everything points at that.

His King was a moron, I wouldn't sacrifice a dog's life to save that fool's life.


He did not start the civil war, do not think for an uneducated second that the Banns that stood against him did so for altruistic reasons. In fact I would daresay many of them were at least half as corrupt and evil as Howe.

Regarding the slaves. I think Loghain himself says a fine point about them. "To command an army you must be close enough to your men to know what their going through, but still consider them as tools that need to be thrown away."

He probably did not consider the elves as non-combatants. If I was in his shoes I would done the same. Hell if was in command of that army I gather at the end of Origins. I would have sent an order to Denerim for no one to abandon the city save for children younger then seven. I would have used the children as slingers/archers/messangers. The old men and women as cook and to reload the balistas and catapults, and the priests to bless the troops ( morale can be lifted up quite heavily by faith )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 03:25 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

I've not yet managed to find it in me to let Loghain live. I mean look at the list of crimes:

- Mass murder; the deaths of all the soldiers in Ostagar, and the deaths of almost all the Wardens
- Regicide
- Framing the Wardens for the crime
- Engaging in slave trading
- Hiring assassins to kill remaining wardens
- Imprisoning and torturing political adverseries and potential witnesses to his crimes

And perhaps most damningly of all, BEING TERMINALLY STUPID. Tactical mastermind my ass. 

I mean an assasination plot that involves sacrificing an ARMY, and almost completely decimating the most dedicated ally force in the fight against the darkspawn, and turning the survivors to enemies?

That is monumentally stupid! I mean of all the possible ways of assasination... Including possibilities of faking an accident - that would have left Loghain with the reigns to power just as well, AND allowed him to retain the forces of the Wardens to fight the darkspawn.

Just for being that stupid, he deserves at least to be locked up in a padded room with no access to sharp objects. Add to that his crimes, and I'm really having a hard time seeing why his head and torso should remain attatched.

[Cenwyn]

Swordfishtrombone said:

Just for being that stupid, he deserves at least to be locked up in a padded room with no access to sharp objects. Add to that his crimes, and I'm really having a hard time seeing why his head and torso should remain attatched.

_________________________________________________________________________________





Yep hence the reason why I have Alistair lop off his head. I still say there should be a mod where you can draw and quarter his dead carcass and put his head on a pike outside the city gates.then hang his limbs from the turrets.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Addai. You can think it's stupid. The differences is, I never said killing Loghain is stupid or agreeing with Alsitair to be stupid. What you are doing right now is claiming that everyone who did spare Loghain to be an idiot. A valid point of view. But since it's in absolutes (aka there is nothing to discuss), I don't have to care about it, like you said.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You will have to excuse me if I don't believe you on that. As blademaster7 put it quite nicely in another thread "How many of you reloaded the landsmeet because you initially thought it would be a cool idea to have Loghain in your party? I know most of you did."

I really could care less what you believe.  I've never once thought it would be "cool" to have Loghain in my party.  Don't want him in my camp, don't want to fight with him.  The things he did and permitted to be done are too vile.  I get the images of the soldiers at Ostagar in my mind and that's the end of Loghain.  It would still be his end with or without Alistair.

I find it somewhat weird how a few pixels can influence your decisions. Sure you are making a decision for another few pixels, but it's still a heavily influenced decision.

Why is that surprising, unless you're playing an android?

[sylvanaerie]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But from a morale point of view I think sparing Loghain is very hard to justify. Sure, he can "REDEEM" himself. But I always wonder whether he gave that chance to the dead at Ostagar, to his king, to the enslaved elves, to the deads in the civil war etc...

Loghain DID argue with Cailan for days about not joining the battle on the front lines.  Cailan's guard and Loghain's guard say so.  You also witness Loghain trying to talk Cailan out of it.  So I know Loghain really didn't want to see Cailan dead.

Where I get confused is what Loghain's stance was on fighting the battle at all.  I know he was against Orlesian assistance.  But was he against waiting for Eamon's troops?  He must've been because he sent Jowan to poison Eamon . . . although on the day of Ostagar Duncan comments that he just saw Eamon and that troops could be there in 3 days.  So perhaps Loghain did not send Jowan until AFTER Ostagar was a fail.  It's speculation, but maybe Loghain tried to convince Cailan to wait for the Redcliffe troops.

I dunno.  What I do know is Loghain's intention was to keep Cailan alive right up until they marched for battle.  He seemed to be trying to disuade Cailan from having the battle at all in their final argument.  Loghain knew they would lose.  Cailan's honor guardconfirms thisin Return to Ostagar.

And the mind wanders.

No, Eamon was already out of commision by the time Duncan got to Ostagar (remember it takes two weeks to get the troops to Ostagar) and Ser Donall in Lothering says Eamon "fell ill" prior to the events in Ostagar. 
I don't think it was an assassination plot but by the time Cailan was down there with the troops Loghain had cut his 'loss' and shrugged it off as acceptable.  I DO think he plotted to kill the Gray Wardens but he had probably expected to convince Cailan not to be down there in the midst of it.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai. You can think it's stupid. The differences is, I never said killing Loghain is stupid or agreeing with Alsitair to be stupid. What you are doing right now is claiming that everyone who did spare Loghain to be an idiot. A valid point of view. But since it's in absolutes (aka there is nothing to discuss), I don't have to care about it, like you said.

People see things differently.  It's only stupid if you do it despite it not making any sense to you.  For me, it's stupid to do something that makes no sense to me simply because it's the thing to do, or because a lot of people do it, or because it's an option available in the game.  If it works for you, go for it.