308 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

And you honestly believe the banns would have just let that go away? Politics don't work like that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 05:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai. You can think it's stupid. The differences is, I never said killing Loghain is stupid or agreeing with Alsitair to be stupid. What you are doing right now is claiming that everyone who did spare Loghain to be an idiot. A valid point of view. But since it's in absolutes (aka there is nothing to discuss), I don't have to care about it, like you said.

People see things differently.  It's only stupid if you do it despite it not making any sense to you.  For me, it's stupid to do something that makes no sense to me simply because it's the thing to do, or because a lot of people do it, or because it's an option available in the game.  If it works for you, go for it.

Why not create and RP a character that would have find the choice reasonable?

I too created characters that did htings that to me don't make a lot of sense, but to them and their personality, it does. Because there is not a single choice in the game that is completely illogical like you claim. RPGs, especially DA, is not about choosing between decisions that make sense and another that doesn't. Both make sense depending on perspective.

Npow I am not dictating how you should play (I couldn't care less to be honest). But to not see any sense in any decision in the game, is not experiencing the game fully. If you can't create a character that disagrees with Alistair, then oh well your loss.

[Swordfishtrombone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But from a morale point of view I think sparing Loghain is very hard to justify. Sure, he can "REDEEM" himself. But I always wonder whether he gave that chance to the dead at Ostagar, to his king, to the enslaved elves, to the deads in the civil war etc...

Loghain DID argue with Cailan for days about not joining the battle on the front lines.  Cailan's guard and Loghain's guard say so.  You also witness Loghain trying to talk Cailan out of it.  So I know Loghain really didn't want to see Cailan dead.

Where I get confused is what Loghain's stance was on fighting the battle at all.  I know he was against Orlesian assistance.  But was he against waiting for Eamon's troops?  He must've been because he sent Jowan to poison Eamon . . . although on the day of Ostagar Duncan comments that he just saw Eamon and that troops could be there in 3 days.  So perhaps Loghain did not send Jowan until AFTER Ostagar was a fail.  It's speculation, but maybe Loghain tried to convince Cailan to wait for the Redcliffe troops.

I dunno.  What I do know is Loghain's intention was to keep Cailan alive right up until they marched for battle.  He seemed to be trying to disuade Cailan from having the battle at all in their final argument.  Loghain knew they would lose.  Cailan's honor guardconfirms thisin Return to Ostagar.

And the mind wanders.

No, Eamon was already out of commision by the time Duncan got to Ostagar (remember it takes two weeks to get the troops to Ostagar) and Ser Donall in Lothering says Eamon "fell ill" prior to the events in Ostagar. 
I don't think it was an assassination plot but by the time Cailan was down there with the troops Loghain had cut his 'loss' and shrugged it off as acceptable.  I DO think he plotted to kill the Gray Wardens but he had probably expected to convince Cailan not to be down there in the midst of it.

Consider that you find out that Loghain and Cailan had been arguing over tactics for long - when Loghain tried to (or rather appeared to try to) convince Cailan not to participate the battle, he knew full well that Cailan would not heed the advice. The whole reason for "trying to convince" the king not to participate was to give a plausible appearance of innocence in the aftermath, should anyone present survive the battle.

[Costin_Razvan]

Pardon me Sword, but David Gaider already stated that Loghain's intent on keeping Cailan out of the battle was genuine.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why not create and RP a character that would have find the choice reasonable?

I can RP outside my personal limits to an extent.  I mean, most of the things in the game are not things I could personally do.  But there are certain game choices that are too illogical for me even to plausibly roleplay.  Defiling the ashes is one.  I did it once because I was trying to stretch my dwarven noble's viewpoint to where I thought she might do it.  In the end, it felt artificial and wooden.  I was trying to be a gamer, not playing my character.  I had to reload and it interrupted the flow of my character's story.  Some things are just out of bounds of the in-game reality. Call it a lack of imagination if you will.  Not lopping off Loghain's head is one of these in my book.

Npow I am not dictating how you should play (I couldn't care less to be honest). But to not see any sense in any decision in the game, is not experiencing the game fully. If you can't create a character that disagrees with Alistair, then oh well your loss.

I don't think I'm missing a thing.  I've seen the YouTube videos and read most of Loghain's in-game dialogue post-Landsmeet.  Meh.  It's not worth twisting my game over.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 mai 2010 - 05:27 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

I've not yet managed to find it in me to let Loghain live. I mean look at the list of crimes:

- Mass murder; the deaths of all the soldiers in Ostagar, and the deaths of almost all the Wardens
- Regicide
- Framing the Wardens for the crime
- Engaging in slave trading
- Hiring assassins to kill remaining wardens
- Imprisoning and torturing political adverseries and potential witnesses to his crimes

And perhaps most damningly of all, BEING TERMINALLY STUPID. Tactical mastermind my ass. 

I mean an assasination plot that involves sacrificing an ARMY, and almost completely decimating the most dedicated ally force in the fight against the darkspawn, and turning the survivors to enemies?

That is monumentally stupid! I mean of all the possible ways of assasination... Including possibilities of faking an accident - that would have left Loghain with the reigns to power just as well, AND allowed him to retain the forces of the Wardens to fight the darkspawn.

Just for being that stupid, he deserves at least to be locked up in a padded room with no access to sharp objects. Add to that his crimes, and I'm really having a hard time seeing why his head and torso should remain attatched.

See - thaty's my point.  I don't think it was ever his intention to assassinate the king or sacrifice the troops at Ostagar.   I think for days he tried to convince Cailan to abandon this lost cause and r- fortify at Denerim or Redcliffe.

I seem to have pre-empted your reply, and replied to it above, in advance.

As I said, the king and loghain had been arguing over tactics for long, and were fully entrentched in their respective positions, and loghain knew full well that he could not plausibly convince the king not to join the battle at the last war counsil meeting.

It was pure theatre, for the aids of Loghain, those he expected to survive and be at his side, see things his way, after the king is dead, and possibly to make his "innocence" look plausible in the eyes of anyone who survived.

[Ramante]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

I've not yet managed to find it in me to let Loghain live. I mean look at the list of crimes:

- Mass murder; the deaths of all the soldiers in Ostagar, and the deaths of almost all the Wardens
- Regicide
- Framing the Wardens for the crime
- Engaging in slave trading
- Hiring assassins to kill remaining wardens
- Imprisoning and torturing political adverseries and potential witnesses to his crimes

I seriously wonder how many of these things are Loghain's idea, because Howe was probably a bigger *insert nasty word here* than Loghain ever was...

Loghain is not my favourite party-member, he's not even in my top 3.. together with Wynne and Leliana he is actually in my least favourite party-member list, but I recrute him a lot for several reasons.
- I don't do the DR and I rather have a dead Loghain than a dead Warden or dead Alistair
- His dialogue with some other compagnions are pretty good
- He and Wynne in RtO are amazing
- Alistair gets very whiny after three playthroughs
- I can't kill him after I have read 'The Stolen Throne' :x

Modifié par Ramante, 15 mai 2010 - 05:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Whatever you say Addai.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pardon me Sword, but David Gaider already stated that Loghain's intent on keeping Cailan out of the battle was genuine.

Well I can't argue with the word of someone "on the inside".

If that is the case, I don't think loghains intent to keep the king alive was made either clear, or very believable at all. It looked fake, like theatre, to me right from the first time - the way he acted in the war counsil meeting, I was expecting some kind of betrayal from him in my first playthrough, before knowing what would happen.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Ramante wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

I've not yet managed to find it in me to let Loghain live. I mean look at the list of crimes:

- Mass murder; the deaths of all the soldiers in Ostagar, and the deaths of almost all the Wardens
- Regicide
- Framing the Wardens for the crime
- Engaging in slave trading
- Hiring assassins to kill remaining wardens
- Imprisoning and torturing political adverseries and potential witnesses to his crimes

I seriously wonder how many of these things are Loghain's idea, because Howe was probably a bigger *insert nasty word here* than Loghain ever was...

Loghain is not my favourite party-member, he's not even in my top 3.. together with Wynne and Leliana he is actually in my least favourite party-member list, but I recrute him a lot for several reasons.
- I don't do the DR and I rather have a dead Loghain than a dead Warden or dead Alistair
- His dialogue with some other compagnions are pretty good
- He and Wynne in RtO are amazing
- Alistair gets very whiny after three playthroughs

I'll probably spare him on some future play through, just for the sake of completeness - seeing what he's like as a party memeber. I do hope there's a dialogue option of regularly referring him as an **** or something, though.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well I can't argue with the word of someone "on the inside".

There is a rather long thread called Defense of Loghain Mac Tir, just check the Bioware posts in it. Quite interesting stuff.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Pardon me Sword, but David Gaider already stated that Loghain's intent on keeping Cailan out of the battle was genuine.

Well I can't argue with the word of someone "on the inside".

If that is the case, I don't think loghains intent to keep the king alive was made either clear, or very believable at all. It looked fake, like theatre, to me right from the first time - the way he acted in the war counsil meeting, I was expecting some kind of betrayal from him in my first playthrough, before knowing what would happen.

Much of Loghain's character is not made explicit sadly. But that's part of how interesting he is, imo. The game doesn't get out of its way to tell you. If you want to know, you have to dig deep and think about it.

Part of it is having a bit of faith for the man (if you want to genuinely redeem him). That was possible for my Cousland, because he grew up idolising him.

[Ramante]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

I've not yet managed to find it in me to let Loghain live. I mean look at the list of crimes:

- Mass murder; the deaths of all the soldiers in Ostagar, and the deaths of almost all the Wardens
- Regicide
- Framing the Wardens for the crime
- Engaging in slave trading
- Hiring assassins to kill remaining wardens
- Imprisoning and torturing political adverseries and potential witnesses to his crimes

I seriously wonder how many of these things are Loghain's idea, because Howe was probably a bigger *insert nasty word here* than Loghain ever was...

Loghain is not my favourite party-member, he's not even in my top 3.. together with Wynne and Leliana he is actually in my least favourite party-member list, but I recrute him a lot for several reasons.
- I don't do the DR and I rather have a dead Loghain than a dead Warden or dead Alistair
- His dialogue with some other compagnions are pretty good
- He and Wynne in RtO are amazing
- Alistair gets very whiny after three playthroughs

I'll probably spare him on some future play through, just for the sake of completeness - seeing what he's like as a party memeber. I do hope there's a dialogue option of regularly referring him as an **** or something, though.

Take him together with Wynne back to Ostagar, I swear it is priceless!

[Costin_Razvan]

 Your Cousland IS him.  Well a successful less bitter version anyway.

 Take him together with Wynne back to Ostagar, I swear it is priceless!

The whole. "Are you blind old woman?" is just awesome.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 mai 2010 - 05:37 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It seems to me you may not understand politics in times of war . . . political leaders complain, but they unite if there is combat going on.

Like the dwarven assembly united during the First Blight to combat the Darkspawn?

[sylvanaerie]

Hanz54321 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

No, Eamon was already out of commision by the time Duncan got to Ostagar (remember it takes two weeks to get the troops to Ostagar) and Ser Donall in Lothering says Eamon "fell ill" prior to the events in Ostagar. 
I don't think it was an assassination plot but by the time Cailan was down there with the troops Loghain had cut his 'loss' and shrugged it off as acceptable.  I DO think he plotted to kill the Gray Wardens but he had probably expected to convince Cailan not to be down there in the midst of it.

Ahh.  Very good.  Thank you.  I thought it was 3 days - two weeks is different story.  And very good memory with Ser Donall stating that Eamon fell ill before Ostagar.

I'm getting a good picture in my head.  Fun discussion.

I know, it feels weird to argue for Loghain because I can't stand the character but I do see he isn't the total big bad that the game plays him as. You DO have to look beyond that and try to see what might be there under the surface.  And that council scene in Ostagar does have a certain "mustache twirling" villiany to it.  I looked at that mule kicked zombie face on my screen and thought, this can only end in tears...

I just can't seem to be able to spare him.  Every time I try I get done killing the slavers and once Caladrius offers that little service I just want to kill him, kill Loghain, rekill Howe...That just really gets under my skin.

[old book]

Gaider has said something to the effect that Loghain was planning to move against Cailin before the battle. He didn't think he was facing a real blight, and would not tolerate what he saw as allowing Orlesian influence or worse (troops or an aliance) on his watch.

[KnightofPhoenix]

old book wrote...

Gaider has said something to the effect that Loghain was planning to move against Cailin before the battle. He didn't think he was facing a real blight, and would not tolerate what he saw as allowing Orlesian influence or worse (troops or an aliance) on his watch.

No, he said Loghain was preparing to move against Cailan IF it became necessary. It was a contingency plan, one he decided to act on during the battle and not before.

[old book]

The "He had to sell the Elves into slavery" argument always rings hollow to me. Yes, one theme of the setting is "Making The Hard Choices". But that doesn't free him from responsibility, or consequences. He thought he had to sell the Elves into slavery to get funding? So what? He was doing something immoral by the standards of his time and place, and breaking the law of his land. Even saying "He had to" is nonsense; he didn't have to. The nobles can get troops out just fine without selling their people into slavery when Alistair or Anora ask them to. Loghain was making a Hard Choice? He chose wrong.

Does that mean he should be killed? Your character would have to answer that. Most of mine answered "Yes", though it wasn't their only reason. Some answered "No". Depends on how important they see that and the other crimes committed both by Loghain and by Howe acting under his protection, and how culpable they feel Loghain is for Howe's acts.

Modifié par old book, 15 mai 2010 - 06:13 .

[Oloria]

If I were a neutral bystander to Loghain's "trial", emotionally uninvolved (by that I mean not directly affected by any of Loghain's actions leading up to or during his Regency) and presented with all of the facts (including his personal record of service to Ferelden and details of the Orlesian occupation) then I would likely choose to vote in favour of sparing him and having him undertake the Joining ritual. I would find some of the decisions he made, supposedly for the greater good of Ferelden, extremely difficult to justify (particularly slavery and turning a blind eye to the actions of Rendon Howe) but if he seemed genuine in his acceptance of the Grey Warden as Ferelden's best hope against the Blight, then he is deserving of the chance to redeem himself. Furthermore, if Loghain is seen to fall in line behind the Warden, then that sends a far stronger message to even his hardcore supporters, than executing him and possibly making a martyr of him.

At the very least, I'd feel that Loghain was deserving of a more thorough trial than the one he gets at the Landsmeet, where if the Grey Warden receives enough votes (basically by running about Denerim, earning the favour of nobility and thus ensuring their bias towards him/her) becomes judge, jury and executioner of Loghain.

All that said, the PC is most definitely NOT emotionally uninvolved. She's been hunted by Loghain, seen people suffer or killed or both because of his actions. She's also possibly in love with a man who holds revenge against Loghain above all else. For those reasons, and many more, I don't exactly have a difficult time rationalising how my PC comes to the decision to execute Loghain. If I were in her position, I probably would lose sight of what an unbiased me would consider fair and order the man's death too.

I love that DAO has genuine crisis points where you really can take and justify a particular course of action depending on your player's perspective. It makes a refreshing change from the RPGs where in order to explore the alternative "evil" route, you're forced to roleplay him/her as a total bastard.

Modifié par Oloria, 15 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Great post Oloria.