308 réponses à ce sujet

[Oloria]

Oh, thanks! Heh. And for ignoring my typos, which I'm just going to go and ninja-fix now...



At the risk of sounding like I'm just lamely returning a compliment (I'm not!), I'll say that I like how you've put across your points so succinctly. I tend to write too much... I'm always genuinely surprised when I realise some people have actually read beyond the first paragraph!

[BHRamsay]

I kill him for a very practical reason ...if you don't kill him, Anora gives the pre-battle speech which is just WRONG. And yes I can be emotional about the choice seeing as the man tried and failed to have me killed several times over the year or so you spend on the run .. not once, not twice but many times, in many different ways... I'm not sure how self destructive the rest of you are but that kind of thing isn't something I can blithely ignore.



Off with his head

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oloria wrote...

Oh, thanks! Heh. And for ignoring my typos, which I'm just going to go and ninja-fix now...

At the risk of sounding like I'm just lamely returning a compliment (I'm not!), I'll say that I like how you've put across your points so succinctly. I tend to write too much... I'm always genuinely surprised when I realise some people have actually read beyond the first paragraph!

You should have seen my posts in the old Loghain debates. They were not quite so succinct and short haha
But thank you, I appreciate it.  

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


He probably did not consider the elves as non-combatants. If I was in his shoes I would done the same. Hell if was in command of that army I gather at the end of Origins. I would have sent an order to Denerim for no one to abandon the city save for children younger then seven. I would have used the children as slingers/archers/messangers. The old men and women as cook and to reload the balistas and catapults, and the priests to bless the troops ( morale can be lifted up quite heavily by faith )

I would have told EVERYONE to go, trapped the darkspawn in the city and burned everything with them closed in in the flames. Muh better.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Then you would have probably burned Amaranthine to the ground in Awakening, I assume?

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Why not create and RP a character that would have find the choice reasonable?

I too created characters that did htings that to me don't make a lot of sense, but to them and their personality, it does. Because there is not a single choice in the game that is completely illogical like you claim. RPGs, especially DA, is not about choosing between decisions that make sense and another that doesn't. Both make sense depending on perspective.

Npow I am not dictating how you should play (I couldn't care less to be honest). But to not see any sense in any decision in the game, is not experiencing the game fully. If you can't create a character that disagrees with Alistair, then oh well your loss.

I agree that seeing Loghain´s PoV with one character for RP-purposes is interesting. But in discussions on the forum I prefer to defend my point of view, not the one of a dwarf noble who agreed to kill his brother for power an would sacrifice all humans in Thedas to stop the darkspawn.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Then you would have probably burned Amaranthine to the ground in Awakening, I assume?

Funnily, no. Because I knew it is a PC game and that means, I can save both :P

If it was real, that would have been wiser, imo.

[GardenSnake]

brewmaster wrote...

I agree. In general you need some kind of trial. Killing him at the landsmeet would be an act of self-administered justice.
But I think that rule of law and such things are not important in Ferelden. Just slay him gruesomely and spill his guts all over the landsmeet if you are eager to do so.

By the way: Alistair shows no compassion and mercy for Loghain. That makes him rather a tyrant than a king. There are other possible punishments besides death penalty.

Little problem with your part at the end there: Alistair isn't king yet. At that point he's still a GreyWarden. So it's all good. I usually kill him. My first playthough was as a goodie-twoshoes Human Noble and I let Alistair take the killing blow for a number of reasons. Namely because Logain caused Alistair and his family a lot of pain and because my PC and him were BFFs lol. Plus I find him dreadfully boring as a party member anways.

[Verly]

I have killed him in my game except once because I wanted the trophy, but since I bought the game on the PC I'll have to do it again at least once for the same reason. I like having Alistair in my party.

  As for why? I get that we didn't know everything that went on at Ostagar and I can understand that there might have been a reason for him turning from the war, but why did he blame the death on the Gray Wardens? 
Even some of the gossip was that it was silly because the darkspawn killed the king.

It's his fault that my character has to sleep on the ground for somewhere around 2 years hiding out like a criminal gaining a rag tag group of companions which consist of: you're fellow gray warden who doesn't want to lead, a mage that complains about anything that is not totally evil, a loony bard that won't stop falling in love with my warden (I know it's a bug), a huge silent guy with anger problems, a flirty elf assassin that was sent by logain to kill my character (ok, that's a plus on his side), an annoying old lady mage that won't stop sticking her nose in my business and a large golum that also has anger issues.

not to meantion having to fix every problem my character comes in contact with "werewolves you say? I'll do it!"
"No king? oh I'll spend a year here helping out.  I don't have anything more important to do."

then he blames selling elves to slavers on MY character and her gang of idiots. I didn't have a butt lode of cash either and my character didn't do anything like that.

Oh, he dies in my game for sure.

Modifié par Verly, 15 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[Emerald Melios]

I executed him as a City Elf because the Tevinter slavery scandal was the last straw.

[sylvanaerie]

Emerald Melios wrote...

I executed him as a City Elf because the Tevinter slavery scandal was the last straw.

Yep I can forgive all the other stuff but that slavery thing gets me every time.  It really pushes my buttons

[Kacynski]

I just finished my most recent playthrough, which I made up to get all the missing achievements, including the one to let Loghain sacrifice himself. I put quite some thoughts in my PC, as to which origin and character would fit, in order I could roleplay the whole thing and not just metagame and get the trophies.

In the end it turned out, to keep Loghain alive did really break the experience with this character. Even my dwarf noble would not have let him live, save for the player behind her who wanted to see Loghain at least once in the party.

Part of it was my total annoyance with Loghains talking at camp, when I got to question him. I did not get the feeling, he did at all understand, what it is being a warden about. He gave me the feeling, I just let him be warden in order to punish him. Even, when he makes the sacrifice, I did NOT get the feeling, he's doing it for Ferelden, he's doing it because he can't live on as a defeated man. That's how my dwarf came to see it and she really regretted to have Alistair left the party - allthough he became king at Anora's side.
I can't help myself, Loghain presents himself allways as too proud, too selfish without compassion for his friends or companions. He acts allwas as only he knows and only he can make things go right. I really hate the line he has at the landsmeet, when he claims, that ONLY he gave his blood for Ferelden on NO ONE ELSE has the right to make decisions for Fereldens good. How has he forgot about the thousands men and women that DIED for Fereldens freedom? I hate him just for this line.
I do think that his execution directly at landsmeet in front of his daughter and all nobles of Ferelden is a mistake, though. I would very much prefer to have an option to set up a real trial and let a judge or the crowned king speak right. Or put him in a prison tower to let him rot there.
But as long as the game gives me the only option either have him in my party or kill him - he's executed .....

EDIT: and as a player I can't stand his voice acting, he sounds like a real lunatic ...

Modifié par Kacynski, 16 mai 2010 - 10:00 .

[VampireCommando]

If i'm honest i would of spaired Loghain if you didnt have to lose Alistiar but the fact is that you have to make a choice between Alistair and Loghain Alistair will always win in my eyes because of the history he and the PC have, but if i didnt have to choose then i'd spare him, i mean like riodan says, he is a great warrior and genral, i also think his character is exremly well writen and the VA's work is amazing.

[nos_astra]

Kacynski, how can I express how much I love you for this post. Really, you managed to pinpoint why I'm terribly annoyed by Loghain. After all he has screwed up still he, he, and only he knows what a king should be like, what is right, what is wrong, genuine regret is rare, everything he has done was only for Ferelden and he had to do it because no one else in the world would and there can't ever be another way and ... bla bla bla.



Thank you!

[Swordfishtrombone]

Oloria wrote...

At the very least, I'd feel that Loghain was deserving of a more thorough trial than the one he gets at the Landsmeet, where if the Grey Warden receives enough votes (basically by running about Denerim, earning the favour of nobility and thus ensuring their bias towards him/her) becomes judge, jury and executioner of Loghain.

I do agree that he should have received a trial, but the fact that he didn't was kinda brought on by his own actions - had he abided by the rules of the landsmeet, doubtless he would have been tried. Instead, after the landsmeet went against him, he tried for a coup. Under pretty much any law, such action, in the middle of a war is considered treason, and would earn you a summary excecution.

I think also that if your impassionate observer to his trial were to conclude that he should be spared, the prosecution would have failed in their duty - after all, you seem to miss the most damning of his crimes, the mass murder of the king's troops. And for what?

It's not as if he couldn't have acted agianst the king AFTER the battle, sparing the army, and ending up in a much stronger position. Why not, for example, have an assassin shoot a poisoned arrow at the king during the battle? The king would have died a hero in a battle against the darkspawn, and Loghain, as his right hand man would have been the natural choise for Ferelden to unite behind. That would have been the tactically wiser course of action.

Just ignoring the morality of his actions - his culpability in mass murder and high treason - the way he executed the regicide was just plain incompetent. He may have been a tactical mastermind in the past, but he must have been suffering from early onset dementia, because he certainly wasn't one at Ostagar.

[Maria13]

Verly wrote...


I have killed him in my game except once because I wanted the trophy, but since I bought the game on the PC I'll have to do it again at least once for the same reason. I like having Alistair in my party.

  As for why? I get that we didn't know everything that went on at Ostagar and I can understand that there might have been a reason for him turning from the war, but why did he blame the death on the Gray Wardens? 
Even some of the gossip was that it was silly because the darkspawn killed the king.

It's his fault that my character has to sleep on the ground for somewhere around 2 years hiding out like a criminal gaining a rag tag group of companions which consist of: you're fellow gray warden who doesn't want to lead, a mage that complains about anything that is not totally evil, a loony bard that won't stop falling in love with my warden (I know it's a bug), a huge silent guy with anger problems, a flirty elf assassin that was sent by logain to kill my character (ok, that's a plus on his side), an annoying old lady mage that won't stop sticking her nose in my business and a large golum that also has anger issues.

not to meantion having to fix every problem my character comes in contact with "werewolves you say? I'll do it!"
"No king? oh I'll spend a year here helping out.  I don't have anything more important to do."

then he blames selling elves to slavers on MY character and her gang of idiots. I didn't have a butt lode of cash either and my character didn't do anything like that.

Oh, he dies in my game for sure.

This.

YOU do the dirty on the King and the rest fighting at Ostagar for our country and then you blame ME and my companions for that?  And then you whinge and come up with lame excuses based on what happened thirty years ago... Maker! He is so outta there in all my games... 

[Oloria]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...
I do agree that he should have received a trial, but the fact that he didn't was kinda brought on by his own actions - had he abided by the rules of the landsmeet, doubtless he would have been tried. Instead, after the landsmeet went against him, he tried for a coup. Under pretty much any law, such action, in the middle of a war is considered treason, and would earn you a summary excecution.

Fair enough - I am not familiar enough with Ferelden laws on attempted coups to dispute that. Maybe Loghain did knowingly forfeit his own right to a trial, but at that point he must have believed it was the only chance he had left to continue "saving" Ferelden. This is a man who passionately believes that only he is capable of protecting his country from her enemies. He believes that if he loses the Regency, then it's only a matter of time before the Orlesians are marching through Denerim again. Regardless of whether you think that attitude arrogantly stupid on his part (and personally I do), for me it still doesn't validate the PC's Judge Dredd style execution.

Swordfishtrombone wrote...
I think also that if your impassionate observer to his trial were to conclude that he should be spared, the prosecution would have failed in their duty - after all, you seem to miss the most damning of his crimes, the mass murder of the king's troops.

But doesn't that assume his only motivation for withdrawing at Ostagar was to ensure the king's death? Is this known to be true for a fact at the Landsmeet? I thought Loghain denied this and claims that retreat was the only tactically sound action at that time. Why risk an entire army in a battle that couldn't be won, to save a king that shouldn't have been there in the first place?

I expect all this has probably been said before in these discussions, but I think that a prosecution in a fair trial would struggle to find any hard evidence of treason. Whether hard evidence would be needed in a Ferelden court (perhaps they would consider a king worth more than an army) is another matter. My neutral bystander would want to see more evidence of Loghain's intentions before condemning him to execution over treason. Intentions are the difference between murder and manslaughter (apologies if that last bit is hideously oversimplified heh, I am not a lawyer!)

Modifié par Oloria, 16 mai 2010 - 02:34 .

[CalJones]

If you bring up leaving Cailan to die at the Landsmeet, it doesn't net you any votes, due to the lack of evidence. So you're right, there is no hard evidence of treason. You can only sway the voters based on poisoning Eamon, letting Howe torture the noble boy and allowing the Tevinters to enslave the elves. Given that you can be hanged for stealing (see: Daveth), then there's sufficient evidence to sentence Loghain to death. However, you have to weigh up the mitigating factors, notably that he has done so much for Fereldan in the past and is the sole reason Maric lived long enough to become king. For me, that merits a second chance. For others, not so much.

What it boils down to, ultimately, is what makes you feel worse: executing a man in front of his daughter, or disappointing a friend? It's possible to roleplay different points of view but everyone has a limit when it comes to what actions make the game enjoyable for them or not. For instance, I could never bring myself to blow up Megaton in Fallout 3, even on my evil playthrough - something that evil is way beyond my comfort zone.

So it is with this. A lot of players feel horrible for letting down Alistair and can't bear to spare Loghain for that reason. In my case, I feel absolutely horrible for executing Loghain and although I have done it a couple of times, those playthroughs were unenjoyable for me. Ultimately, games are entertainment and we have to go with what's fun for us. It's nice to have games that offer such a depth of choice.

[maxernst]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Oloria wrote...

At the very least, I'd feel that Loghain was deserving of a more thorough trial than the one he gets at the Landsmeet, where if the Grey Warden receives enough votes (basically by running about Denerim, earning the favour of nobility and thus ensuring their bias towards him/her) becomes judge, jury and executioner of Loghain.

I do agree that he should have received a trial, but the fact that he didn't was kinda brought on by his own actions - had he abided by the rules of the landsmeet, doubtless he would have been tried. Instead, after the landsmeet went against him, he tried for a coup. Under pretty much any law, such action, in the middle of a war is considered treason, and would earn you a summary excecution.

Who says he didn't receive a trial?  Trial-by-combat was an acceptable form of justice in many medieval kingdoms.  Obviously, none of us know the details of Ferelden law, but I always interpreted Loghain as choosing that form of trial.

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...

Who says he didn't receive a trial?  Trial-by-combat was an acceptable form of justice in many medieval kingdoms.  Obviously, none of us know the details of Ferelden law, but I always interpreted Loghain as choosing that form of trial.

I don't know about that. If it was all about might makes right then there would be no reason for the Landsmeet at all.

[Oloria]

maxernst wrote...
Who says he didn't receive a trial?  Trial-by-combat was an acceptable form of justice in many medieval kingdoms.  Obviously, none of us know the details of Ferelden law, but I always interpreted Loghain as choosing that form of trial.

I think maybe we're getting side-tracked here, but to clarify anyway: I didn't intend to claim that Loghain received no trial at all. Loghain did receive a trial of sorts, and after that he did choose a coup, or a trial by combat, or whatever you want to call it. And yes, I quite agree, that it's likely that whole process is a perfectly acceptable means to judge and sentence a Regent in Ferelden.

The point I was trying to make was that I (not my PC) didn't feel the trial was fair and unbiased. It would be like letting the victims of a crime choose the perpetrator's sentence instead of a judge. But I totally accept that I am looking at it from the perspective of someone used to modern Western courts, not someone who is part of a society where it is commonplace for pickpockets to be hung (as CalJones points out). That was the distinction I was trying to make in my first post: that my own opinion (Loghain's crimes, weighed up against his personal history and his intentions, does not merit execution) was different to that of my PC on my first playthrough, who executed him in a righteous rage.

Modifié par Oloria, 16 mai 2010 - 08:05 .

[Tirigon]

VampireCommando wrote...

If i'm honest i would of spaired Loghain if you didnt have to lose Alistiar but the fact is that you have to make a choice between Alistair and Loghain Alistair will always win in my eyes because of the history he and the PC have, but if i didnt have to choose then i'd spare him, i mean like riodan says, he is a great warrior and genral

THIS.


I think MANY more would spare Loghain if you could have both him and Alistair in the party. On my first playthrough in which I decided what I would have decided if it was real I tried to recruit him because it seemed reasonable to have as many warden´s as possible (even though I didn´t know about the archdemon killing problem). However, with Alistair threatening to leave the strongest reason to recruit Loghain becomes useless since you do NOT have more wardens - instead, you exchange your oldest companion and (in my case) lover for a guy who tried to kill you about 10 times. Bad idea, don´t you think?

[maxernst]

I'd have been more inclined to spare Loghain if there had been some plausible reason to expect him to be a loyal Grey Warden. Suppose that Loghain had sent out a force to battle the darkspawn, been dealt a crushing defeat, and the Archdemon had been spotted, making him desperate for a solution to save Ferelden. Then I can imagine a scheme cooked up between Grigor & Anora to broker a deal where Loghain stands down, becomes a Grey Warden, cedes control of the army to you, and Anora is ratified as Queen regnant by the Landsmeet, I don't see why losing a battle to you should prove to Loghain that it is a true blight and that the PC is not an Orlesian agent--and unless he believes those things, he can't be trusted.



Alistair and Eammon would still probably not like this deal, but I would feel far more confident in those circumstances that Loghain was both sane and trustworthy.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

VampireCommando wrote...

If i'm honest i would of spaired Loghain if you didnt have to lose Alistiar but the fact is that you have to make a choice between Alistair and Loghain Alistair will always win in my eyes because of the history he and the PC have, but if i didnt have to choose then i'd spare him, i mean like riodan says, he is a great warrior and genral

THIS.


I think MANY more would spare Loghain if you could have both him and Alistair in the party. On my first playthrough in which I decided what I would have decided if it was real I tried to recruit him because it seemed reasonable to have as many warden´s as possible (even though I didn´t know about the archdemon killing problem). However, with Alistair threatening to leave the strongest reason to recruit Loghain becomes useless since you do NOT have more wardens - instead, you exchange your oldest companion and (in my case) lover for a guy who tried to kill you about 10 times. Bad idea, don´t you think?

Seconded. It seems as if many people would give Loghain a chance if it didn't mean losing Alistair. If you had to lose Alistair to recruit Zevran, much fewer people would recruit an unapologetic assassin whose trust is highly questionable, too. But you know... the *Archdemon* gets a second chance via the dark ritual in many games... Is Loghain really worse than the archdemon?

[sylvanaerie]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

VampireCommando wrote...

If i'm honest i would of spaired Loghain if you didnt have to lose Alistiar but the fact is that you have to make a choice between Alistair and Loghain Alistair will always win in my eyes because of the history he and the PC have, but if i didnt have to choose then i'd spare him, i mean like riodan says, he is a great warrior and genral

THIS.


I think MANY more would spare Loghain if you could have both him and Alistair in the party. On my first playthrough in which I decided what I would have decided if it was real I tried to recruit him because it seemed reasonable to have as many warden´s as possible (even though I didn´t know about the archdemon killing problem). However, with Alistair threatening to leave the strongest reason to recruit Loghain becomes useless since you do NOT have more wardens - instead, you exchange your oldest companion and (in my case) lover for a guy who tried to kill you about 10 times. Bad idea, don´t you think?

Seconded. It seems as if many people would give Loghain a chance if it didn't mean losing Alistair. If you had to lose Alistair to recruit Zevran, much fewer people would recruit an unapologetic assassin whose trust is highly questionable, too. But you know... the *Archdemon* gets a second chance via the dark ritual in many games... Is Loghain really worse than the archdemon?

For me, yes.  I have much more fun dealing with Loghain than the final battle.  By the time the Landsmeet is over I just want to load up another game and start over...I have to remind myself it ISN"T over yet.  The Archdemon is so far removed from anything even remotely relateable and Loghain (for all his flaws) is understandable.  I can relate to him even if I disagree with him.  So executing him is for me the climax of my game.  I look forward to doing it (once I finish with the slavers) even if I DID plan on sparing him.
It all boils down to what's the most fun for you to do in your playthroughs. If you want to spare him go for it.  If you like killing him go for it.  Both sides have valid points.