308 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

It all boils down to what's the most fun for you to do in your playthroughs. If you want to spare him go for it.  If you like killing him go for it.  Both sides have valid points.

Indeed. I think that any sensible discussion on Loghain's fate has to start with the realization that there are valid reasons why someone roleplaying a good and well meaning person would do either thing. Just because you always do one thing or the other doesn't mean someone else's view isn't just as valid.

The whole way the dilemma is set up, and that you have to sacrifice either Alistair or Loghain is a very interesting dilemma. How do you value personal loyalty against politics or your sense of justice? Especially as either of them can prompt you to want ot kill or save Loghain. I can easily argue why Loghain should be either saved or killed based on my characters personal honor, based on political tactics, based on arguments about the common good, or based on justice and fairness.

What I don't enjoy about these discussions is whenever someone tries to simplify the question by ignoring or trivializing the strong parts in the character they choose to sacrifice (Loghain or Alistair). Either by pretending that Alistair is just a whining nobody or that Loghain is a poor general that never loved Fereldan anyway.

[Frolk]

I killed Loghain on my first playthrough and I still feel bad about it. It was out of character for my Cousland (a lawful good paladin type) to kill an enemy who had yielded, and I have to admit that my motivations had far more to do with not wanting Alistair to ragequit on me than wanting to see Loghain pay for his crimes with his life.

Aside from that, I spared Loghain in my second playthrough and had Alistair fight him in most of my subsequent campaigns (I actually prefer this solution - Loghain doesn't yield and Alistair kills him honourably - this way I can play a Mary Sue or Marty Stu character and still have Alistair at my side in the end).

Modifié par Frolk, 17 mai 2010 - 07:44 .

[Elhanan]

The only options I have yet to use are me taking the Dark Ritual (though Alistair is the one with a few abominations running around Ferelden), and making Loghain take the ritual. He really is well written to persuade me as the Player to choose my mind on a final plan.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Seconded. It seems as if many people would give Loghain a chance if it didn't mean losing Alistair. If you had to lose Alistair to recruit Zevran, much fewer people would recruit an unapologetic assassin whose trust is highly questionable, too.

True. Though Zevran is at least funnier than Loghain, imo.

But you know... the *Archdemon* gets a second chance via the dark ritual in many games... Is Loghain really worse than the archdemon?

I don´t think the Archdemon gets a second chance via the Dark Ritual. But anyways, you can´t compare that with Loghain.
For once, you don´t loose anyone by doing the Dark Ritual - on the contrary, it is the only way NOT to loose anyone!

And the other difference is, that Loghain has done more bad things to my PC than the Archdemon.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but if you compare Loghain´s deeds with the Archdemon´s, then the Archdemon is less bad imo.
At least it has NOT betrayed anyone, NOT enslaved people etc.....

[Tirigon]

Frolk wrote...

and had Alistair fight him in most of my subsequent campaigns (I actually prefer this solution - Loghain doesn't yield and Alistair kills him honourably

I wish it was the same if your PC duels Loghain. It would make things so much better and easier if Loghain would fight and die honorably instead of surrendering to your PC...........

[Costin_Razvan]

NOT enslaved people etc.....

Darkspawn enslave people. Those slaves are called Ghouls.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 mai 2010 - 02:37 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I like to quote Batman for Loghain:

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villian"

Giving him the chance to die a hero and repent for his actions is really one of the better ends, and besides it lets you avoid the God Child, i just love telling Morrigan that I will never bring a demon into the world.

[sylvanaerie]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I like to quote Batman for Loghain:
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villian"
Giving him the chance to die a hero and repent for his actions is really one of the better ends, and besides it lets you avoid the God Child, i just love telling Morrigan that I will never bring a demon into the world.

Well you can still kill Loghain and refuse Morrigan.  Sparing Loghain for the Redeemer means he doesnt' have to accept responsibility for what he's done.  He still gets to die a hero anyway.  Hardly a fitting punishment for his crimes.
Frankly I would rather do the US myself.

[errant_knight]

I can't bring myself to spare him. As a warden, you want to be able to recruit people the best possible in the future, without conscription if possible. You've just outlined his crimes at the Landsmeet. If they see recruitment as a proper end for someone who abandoned the King on the battlefield, imprisoned a templar, made use of a blood mage, and sold elves into slavery, that hardly says that being a warden is something honorable. Letting him live is a bad precedant on it's own in that you're saying that regicide is a redeemable crime, and even worse in term of how people view the wardens in future.

[Costin_Razvan]

If they see recruitment as a proper end for someone who abandoned the King on the battlefield, imprisoned a templar, made use of a blood mage, and sold elves into slavery, that hardly says that being a warden is something honorable.

Duncan was a thief who killed the Grey Warden's commander husband. Arvenus used blood magic at the urge of Sophia Dryden. Daveth was a thief and possibly a killer. Sophia Dryden herself was forced to join the wardens after attempting regicide.

The DC is a castless thief who has made a living by killing and stealing. The city elf slaughtered his/her way through the Arl of Denerim's palace and killed every guard along with the Arls son/or let his cousin get raped. The DN can kill his own brother. The mage helps a blood mage.

Anders is a wanted apostate, who probably murdered some templars. Oghren is a sodding drunk of Orzammar, Sigrun is a former castless thief who was forced to join the Legion or be executed, Velanna murdered merchants just for petty revenge.

Seriously, why is it accepted that any of those above can become a Grey Warden without an issue, and yet you have the stupidity to say that recruiting Loghain sets a precedent and losses Grey Warden Honor.

There is no Grey Warden honor. Riordand himself says: Common Bandits, Carta Thugs, Kinslayers, Blood Mages are welcome among their ranks.

You also act as if a king should never questiond. How many tyrants do you think sat on thrones and worked as rulers only to be overthrown, are those that took their place to be condemned, or lauded for killing tyrants?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 mai 2010 - 03:47 .

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If they see recruitment as a proper end for someone who abandoned the King on the battlefield, imprisoned a templar, made use of a blood mage, and sold elves into slavery, that hardly says that being a warden is something honorable.

Duncan was a thief who killed the Grey Warden's commander husband. Arvenus used blood magic at the urge of Sophia Dryden. Daveth was a thief and possibly a killer. Sophia Dryden herself was forced to join the wardens after attempting regicide.

The DC is a castless thief who has made a living by killing and stealing. The city elf slaughtered his/her way through the Arl of Denerim's palace and killed every guard along with the Arls son/or let his cousin get raped. The DN can kill his own brother. The mage helps a blood mage.

Anders is a wanted apostate, who probably murdered some templars. Oghren is a sodding drunk of Orzammar, Sigrun is a former castless thief who was forced to join the Legion or be executed, Velanna murdered merchants just for petty revenge.

Seriously, why is it accepted that any of those above can become a Grey Warden without an issue, and yet you have the stupidity to say that recruiting Loghain sets a precedent and losses Grey Warden Honor.

There is no Grey Warden honor. Riordand himself says: Common Bandits, Carta Thugs, Kinslayers, Blood Mages are welcome among their ranks.

You also act as if a king should never questiond. How many tyrants do you think sat on thrones and worked as rulers only to be overthrown, are those that took their place to be condemned, or lauded for killing tyrants?

Because those people are faceless people whom no one will know or think about afterward (unless they do the AD killing blow).  No one will know what their crimes are unless the stand up and say "HEY I killed my brother and got exiled for it" or "I killed an Arl's son for raping a friend" (Still my favorite line in the CE origin).

Loghain is a horse of a different color.  He's already known and his crimes are of such magnitude that EVERYONE can know of them, its all brought out at the Landsmeet. That's the whole point.  If you can accept the general population thinking "I can be a complete rat bastard and mass murder people, sell them off to slavers, consort with blood mages to get rid of my enemies" but all will be forgiven if I go join the Gray Wardens.

Not an image I want to present to Thedas in my games.  If you want to you certainly can, thats your game and you play how you want to. If you believe in your reasons then its certainly a valid point for recruiting whomever you wish too.  But for me there are some boundaries I don't cross. 

And sometimes my PC's hate Duncan. (I usually fall in middle ground with him and he isn't someone I have to recruit or deal with for long in the game). I have had only one of them actually like him.  Some PCs spare Avernus, some don't it all depends on what type of PC I am playing and what I think they will tolerate and what they won't. Duncan made the choice to recruit Daveth not I and frankly Daveth was a likeable sort for what little I got to see of him.  I don't recall him saying he was a killer too, just a pickpocket.

I didn't recruit Oghren (Mostly cause he annoyed me in awakenings) and I told Velanna she didn't deserve to be a warden.  Anders hasn't killed anyone (Openly though I have my doubts about the Templars I can't prove anything in or out of game for that).  If he had openly killed templars I doubt he would still be alive if he used lethal force on his captors as they would have killed him outright in self defense.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because those people are faceless people whom no one will know or think about afterward (unless they do the AD killing blow).

Right, cause recruiting the second child of king Endrin who killed his own brother really is something that will just be swept under the rug. Oh wait.



Really the point of my post isn't about what you should feel, but what the Grey Wardens do in general. If you want to play your characters in a certain way. I sincerely could care less, but don't present your image of the Grey Wardens as a fact for who they are when that is not.

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Because those people are faceless people whom no one will know or think about afterward (unless they do the AD killing blow).

Right, cause recruiting the second child of king Endrin who killed his own brother really is something that will just be swept under the rug. Oh wait.

Really the point of my post isn't about what you should feel, but what the Grey Wardens do in general. If you want to play your characters in a certain way. I sincerely could care less, but don't present your image of the Grey Wardens as a fact for who they are when that is not.

If you had read my entire post instead of just one little line, you would have seen I was agreeing with you that I could care less how you play and I was not presenting mine as "The only way" or "better than your way".  Thats just how I play the game.

[Patriciachr34]

Costin, as a dwarf noble you are exiled to the deep roads when you kill (or are famed for killing) your brother. Duncan does not conscript you in front of the assembly. He stumbles upon you in the deep roads and asks you to join at that point. No one in Orzamar knows you are a grey warden until you return. They all assumed you died. Plus, dwarven society allows for redemption of honor through personal sacrifice (legion of the dead). So, you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the court of Ferelden to the court of Orzamar.



Sophia Dryeden did not commit regicide. She lead a legitimate rebellion against a tyranical ruler and lost. The ruler gave her the choice of execution or joining the grey wardens. It wasn't a conscription.



I think trying to escape being gang raped and possible murdered justifies the death of the person who was going to rape and murder you and your friends irregardless of personal station.



You are making assumptions that both Daveth and Anders are murderers. There is no evidence to support your assumption.



I have to agree with Errant_Knight on this one. It would be ill advised to allow one man with power but who lacks the right of rule through blood to decide who should rule. The right of rule can be claimed with force of arms, but to maintain this one would have to eliminate all opposition. This would mean no army to help defeat the blight. When there is a right of blood issue and nobles available who can claim right of blood to rule, we as grey wardens must support this precept. As a grey warden, letting Loghain live means grey wardens do not recognize the established right of rule within Ferelden. If we are to be effective in the lands we fight the blight, we must be respectful of their culture and laws. Therefore, we must not challenge the legitimate right of rule. Loghain must die.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t think the Archdemon gets a second chance via the Dark Ritual. But anyways, you can´t compare that with Loghain.
For once, you don´t loose anyone by doing the Dark Ritual - on the contrary, it is the only way NOT to loose anyone!

I think you can compare them. How many people do the Dark Ritual to save themselves or Alistair, despite what a horrible disaster the dark ritual could be? Any risk you take is completely negated by the fact that you could save your life or Alistairs. And if you do think there is something about the archdemon worth saving, you think this about the archdemon and not Loghain? On what grounds? What do we know about the Old Gods, except that they were at worst an enemy of the *Maker*? If you are concerned about your soul, is it a good idea to possibly become an enemy of the Maker?

And the other difference is, that Loghain has done more bad things to my PC than the Archdemon.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but if you compare Loghain´s deeds with the Archdemon´s, then the Archdemon is less bad imo.
At least it has NOT betrayed anyone, NOT enslaved people etc.....

If I'm going to compare the archdemon's worst crimes (broodmothers, darkspawn, ghouls, blood poisoning, forced cannibalism, etc) to Loghain's, yes, it does sound ridiculous to me. The archdemon no more singled me out personally than Loghain did. He singled out Wardens, not me personally.

Modifié par phaonica, 17 mai 2010 - 08:04 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Your assuming that somehow you know better then Riordan, a Grey Warden who has served in the order for almost as long as Duncan has, and pardon me if I will stick to believing the opinion of Riordan before your biased opinion against Loghain.

The landsmeet gives you the right to decide if you want to spare Loghain or not. If you really wanted to respect the rules in Fereldan then you would accept Loghain's rule and side with him, because guess what. He has a far more legitimate claim as regent through his daughter Anora then you do with Alistair the unrecognized bastard. The nobles that stand against him are the ones not following the law of the land, as they rebel against the Crown, and you are with them.

Regarding the City Elf. That's laughable. If a commoner would kill a noble born during the Medieval Age, for whatever reason ( and I can think of some things far worse then rape ), then you can bet your ass that commoner would be killed. So no it does not justify it by Medieval law.

Sophia Dryden attempted regicide, of course she failed but that's beyond the point. There is no such thing legitimate rebellion, as either way you are going against the established government to create your own.

You are making assumptions that both Daveth and Anders are murderers. There is no evidence to support your assumption.

Neither is there any to support your assumption that sparring Loghain goes against the rules of the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 mai 2010 - 07:02 .

[phaonica]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I have to agree with Errant_Knight on this one. It would be ill advised to allow one man with power but who lacks the right of rule through blood to decide who should rule. The right of rule can be claimed with force of arms, but to maintain this one would have to eliminate all opposition.  This would mean no army to help defeat the blight. Then there is a right of blood issue and nobles available who can claim right of blood to rule, we as grey wardens must support this precept. As a grey warden, letting Loghain live means grey wardens do not recognize the established right of rule within Ferelden. If we are to be effective in the lands we fight the blight, we must be respectful of their culture and laws. Therefore, we must not challenge the legitimate right of rule. Loghain must die.

But the Landsmeet can choose that Loghain has legitimate right of rule. If the Landsmeet chooses to let Loghain remain as Regent, then the civil war is expected to end with every bit as much certainty as putting Anora or Alistair on the throne would, considering that opposition would still remain. The Landsmeet can confirm that Loghain's claim to Regent is legal. And in your own words, we must be respectful of their culture and laws, we must not challenge the legitimate right of rule. Which is more important at that point? Maintaining Warden honor, or doing a Warden's duty?

[Tirigon]

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...


Duncan was a thief who killed the Grey Warden's commander husband.[/quote]
Never heard that how do you know?

[quote]Arvenus used blood magic at the urge of Sophia Dryden.
The mage helps a blood mage. [/quote]
Blood magic isn´t evil onl because the chantry says so.

[quote]Daveth was a thief and possibly a killer.[/quote]
Daveth hasn´t kill anyone as he says himself.

[quote]Sophia Dryden herself was forced to join the wardens after attempting regicide.[/quote]
She fought a tyrant.

[quote]The DC is a castless thief who has made a living by killing and stealing.
Sigrun is a former castless thief who was forced to join the Legion or
be executed,[/quote]
Because the dwarfen society sucks. S/he didn´t do it for fun.

[quote]The city elf slaughtered his/her way through the Arl of Denerim's palace and killed every guard along with the Arls son/or let his cousin get raped. [/quote]
Vaughan deserved it. I would have tortured him first, though.

[quote]The DN can kill his own brother.[/quote]
That´s common for dwarfes. Again, their society sucks.


[quote]Anders is a wanted apostate, who probably murdered some templars.[/quote]
Templars deserve it.

[quote]Oghren is a sodding drunk of Orzammar, [/quote]
And one of the best warriors alive.

[quote]Velanna murdered merchants just for petty revenge.[/quote]
She was tricked by the darkspawn and saw the error of her ways.

[quote]Seriously, why is it accepted that any of those above can become a Grey Warden without an issue, and yet you have the stupidity to say that recruiting Loghain sets a precedent and losses Grey Warden Honor.

There is no Grey Warden honor. Riordand himself says: Common Bandits, Carta Thugs, Kinslayers, Blood Mages are welcome among their ranks.[/quote]
All these are honorable compared to Loghain.
Besides, as a Warden commander my PC changes that. Being a Warden is the highest honor and no ass will be allowed in.

[quote]You also act as if a king should never questiond. How many tyrants do you think sat on thrones and worked as rulers only to be overthrown, are those that took their place to be condemned, or lauded for killing tyrants?[/quote]

Killing tyrants is good, but you do not want to show that what with being made arl and possibly chancellor or even Prince  / Princess yourself.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Because those people are faceless people whom no one will know or think about afterward (unless they do the AD killing blow).

Right, cause recruiting the second child of king Endrin who killed his own brother really is something that will just be swept under the rug. Oh wait.

This second child is outcast and everyone in Orzammar assumes s/he has been killed in the Deep Roads. On the surface noone gives a sh!t about dwarfen nobility anyways, to put it bluntly.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t think the Archdemon gets a second chance via the Dark Ritual. But anyways, you can´t compare that with Loghain.
For once, you don´t loose anyone by doing the Dark Ritual - on the contrary, it is the only way NOT to loose anyone!

I think you can compare them. How many people do the Dark Ritual to save themselves or Alistair, despite what a horrible disaster the dark ritual could be? Any risk you take is completely negated by the fact that you could save your life or Alistairs. And if you do think there is something about the archdemon worth saving, you think this about the archdemon and not Loghain? On what grounds? What do we know about the Old Gods, except that they were apparently an enemy of the *Maker*? If you are concerned about your soul, is it a good idea to possibly become an enemy of the Maker?

All my PCs hate the damned Maker and the Chantry idiots anyways, so that´s not an issueB).
And I don´t think the Dark Ritual is a risk. For once, I think Morrigan is trustworthy in that aspect, and then the Ritual also ensures you´re there to kill every problem that could possibly spawn from it.

If I'm going to compare the archdemon's worst crimes (broodmothers, darkspawn, ghouls, blood poisoning, forced cannibalism, etc) to Loghain's, yes, it does sound ridiculous to me. The archdemon no more singled me out personally than Loghain did. He singled out Wardens, not me personally.

Interesting. Except for the broodmothers, which are f*cking freaky, I don´t see what´s wrong with that. And what is "blood poisoning" and "forced cannibalism" supposed to mean? I never heard about that in regards to the Archdemon.

[jpdipity]

BOOK SPOILER ALERT

In The Calling, it is revealed that Duncan murdered the Grey Warden commander's fiance (not husband).  He thanked Duncan for doing so before dying.  She then conscripted Duncan to the Grey Wardens.

-- removed quotes from Tirigon due to stupid formatting

Modifié par jpdipity, 17 mai 2010 - 08:08 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon: Your idea of honor is similar to Kratos's idea of redemption in God of War.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

All my PCs hate the damned Maker and the Chantry idiots anyways, so that´s not an issueB).

That's perfectly fair. All we know is that we are preserving some aspect of the Archdemon, and it does mean that you've given it a second chance.

And I don´t think the Dark Ritual is a risk. For once, I think Morrigan is trustworthy in that aspect,

 I have faith that Morrigan is not trying to do anything evil, but I don't have a lot of faith in her honesty. I can't be sure that a purified Old God is any better than an Archdemon is. And considering what the Archdemon has done, why should it get a second chance to be good, and not Loghain? Is it because the Archdemon is basically a dragon ghoul and it didn't have a choice?  Then why did it "call" to the darkspawn in the first place? We don't know.

 

and then the Ritual also ensures you´re there to kill every problem that could possibly spawn from it.

You might right. You may be able to kill the Old God. But you can't be sure that you'll be able to deal with it before countless people die. Then would it be wrong for them to blame you directly for their deaths because you were responsible for letting it live? Would it be wrong for them to call for your execution, due to negligence?

And what is "blood poisoning" 

The darkspawn taint is carried in blood. I was referring to this: "When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and eventually die. "

and "forced cannibalism" supposed to mean?

" The female then starts to mutate, develops cannibalistic urges and begins to feed on other sapient prisoners. She devours massive amounts of flesh and grows into a broodmother. " "They made her eat the others, our friends. She tore off her husband's face and drank his blood."

I never heard about that in regards to the Archdemon.

"[Archdemons] possess an intelligence far beyond the average dragon and are purely evil creatures. Most of the time, the darkspawn are organized as a simple hive-mind, concerned only with expanding the horde. " The point being that everything the darkspawn do is at the behest of the Archdemon.

Modifié par phaonica, 18 mai 2010 - 02:05 .

[maxernst]

Morrigan is quite clear that the soul will be that of the old god, NOT the Archdemon, which is tainted. So, no it's not a second chance for the Archdemon.

[old book]

"Why give the Archedemon a second chance and not Loghain?"



First, I should say that some of my characters have given Loghain his chance, while others haven't.



That said, for my characters that take the DR, it has nothing to do with a desire to redeem an old god. That's Morrigan's schtick. My characters that take the Dark Ritual don't want to have their souls destroyed, which they've been told is what happens if they kill the Archdemon without the DR. Not death followed by an afterlife, but true extinction. If killing Loghain would result in their deaths and the extinguishing of their souls, they'd spare him as well. For some characters, there are prices they will not pay.



Other characters refuse the Dark Ritual and die with the Archdemon, losing their souls in the process. If they thought Loghain had to die, they'd be willing to die killing him as well. It's a different level of sacrifice.



Ultimately, the Dark Ritual is the Dark choice. It's not about mercy or redemption. It's about self preservation.



Sparing Loghain is about mercy and the possibility of redemption (and may also be about politics depending on how you view it). Comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges.