308 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...

Morrigan is quite clear that the soul will be that of the old god, NOT the Archdemon, which is tainted. So, no it's not a second chance for the Archdemon.

You still don't know what an Old God is. If you take something evil, turn it into a darkspawn, then remove the darkspawn taint, what you are left with is still something evil. And their names--Dragon of Silence, Dragon of Chaos, Dragon of Fire, Dragon of Chains , Dragon of Beauty, Dragon of Mystery, Dragon of Night--don't give me a lot of faith in their 'goodness'.

Furthermore, for all that Morrigan is probably one of the most powerful (non PC) mages that I know, she could still be wrong.

Let me ask my question a different way. What if the dark ritual had nothing to do with saving your life or Alistair's ? What if Morrigan just asked if she could keep the Old God soul... as a favor. You would die anyway, but she would keep the Old God soul for herself. She'll promise you that she'll raise it in a way that she perceives as to be "respectful of that from whence it came". Would you still do it?

[Costin_Razvan]

Yes. I would, cause you still are talking of losing the soul of your PC/Alistair/Loghain. Death is one thing, having your soul destroyed, well that is a completely different one.



I do not think there is any way to properly give respect to someone who does such a thing, but for what it's worth I salute the four heroes that gave their souls to defeat the first four Blights as well Alistair and Loghain for being willing to do it, no matter what.

[maxernst]

phaonica wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Morrigan is quite clear that the soul will be that of the old god, NOT the Archdemon, which is tainted. So, no it's not a second chance for the Archdemon.

You still don't know what an Old God is. If you take something evil, turn it into a darkspawn, then remove the darkspawn taint, what you are left with is still something evil. And their names--Dragon of Silence, Dragon of Chaos, Dragon of Fire, Dragon of Chains , Dragon of Beauty, Dragon of Mystery, Dragon of Night--don't give me a lot of faith in their 'goodness'.

Furthermore, for all that Morrigan is probably one of the most powerful (non PC) mages that I know, she could still be wrong.

Let me ask my question a different way. What if the dark ritual had nothing to do with saving your life or Alistair's ? What if Morrigan just asked if she could keep the Old God soul... as a favor. You would die anyway, but she would keep the Old God soul for herself. She'll promise you that she'll raise it in a way that she perceives as to be "respectful of that from whence it came". Would you still do it?

Well, maybe someone who was really in love with Morrigan would, but my PC would not.  I have never said the dark ritual was risk-free.  Why assume risk without reward?  But that's exactly why it's not analogous with the Loghain situation. You're not doing it out of a desire to redeem the old god (although I suppose it's possible that's Morrigan's motivation).  If there were some comparable advantage to keeping Loghain alive (rather than the considerable disadvantage of losing Alistair), then the situations might be comparable.

[phaonica]

Despite my best efforts, I still managed to ask my question wrong
I guess I should have asked, if the Dark Ritual couldn't save your soul, would you still do it?

And at any rate, where does your soul go when it dies? To the Maker? The Old Gods were banished by the Maker.

If you do something that is against the Maker, such as rebirthing an Old God, would this not also potentially put your soul in jeopardy?

I do see it as giving the old god a second chance. It's taking a thing that is evil (the archdemon), and maybe, possibly, hopefully allowing it to become something that isn't. How is it not giving it a second chance?

If you are looking for a "comparable advantage" then you are no longer looking at the right and wrong, and only at benefits. The question of if something is advantageous and the question of is it right are different things. Sometimes you give up a benefit because the means by which you get it are wrong.

Justice is a question of right and wrong, not of benefits. Loghain and the Archdemon both have a chance to be redeemed, and if justice demands Loghain's death, does justice not also demand that you refuse the DR? If you say that concerning the archdemon, the benefits of saving the old god soul outweigh any question of justice, then I would say again: sometimes you give up a benefit because the means by which you get it are wrong.

Modifié par phaonica, 18 mai 2010 - 02:42 .

[maxernst]

If it's strictly a question of right and wrong, I execute Loghain because replacing Alistair with a warden of dubious loyalty and questionable sanity increases the risk of the blight taking Ferelden in my judgement. It's true however, if I were intending to play a saint, I wouldn't risk the dark ritual,

Also, no dwarf or elf PC is likely to believe in the Maker, so that line of argument fails for many characters.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 mai 2010 - 03:01 .

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...

Also, no dwarf or elf PC is likely to believe in the Maker, so that line of argument fails for many characters.

You are right. I concede that.

--

For all that I think executing Loghain is wrong, and that he does deserve a second chance, I also can see how it could be perceived as wrong to risk my duty for one man's potential redemption.

On the flip side, I can also see how doing the right thing, or refusing to do something wrong, can also cost lives, and that it doesn't necessarily make it a wrong decision.

And to be completely fair, as I said of Morrigan earlier and compare her to myself now, for all that I didn't think the risks were too high, and that I was strong enough to handle it, I could still be wrong, and I definitely could have been wrong to risk it.

You see? I am not immutable.

Modifié par phaonica, 18 mai 2010 - 05:24 .

[Kryyptehk]

maxernst wrote...

If it's strictly a question of right and wrong, I execute Loghain because replacing Alistair with a warden of dubious loyalty and questionable sanity increases the risk of the blight taking Ferelden in my judgement. It's true however, if I were intending to play a saint, I wouldn't risk the dark ritual,

Also, no dwarf or elf PC is likely to believe in the Maker, so that line of argument fails for many characters.

Don't the City Elves believe in the Maker? They don't worship the Dalish gods.

[RogueWriter3201]

The Thread has gone in a couple different directions, but I think I'll try to stick to the main question; I already feel guilty enough about taking some other Threads *Way* off Topic. (Ahem) So, as to sparring Loghain or Executing him for his Crimes; for me, it really comes down to the Characters I'm playing and the RP angle. My 'Canon' Warden has ever been, time and time again, a Male HN who Loves the Kingdom dearly, and wants to see it strong. When he reaches Denerim he finds himself falling for Anora and sees her as a far better Ruler for Ferelden than Alistair, who takes to much emotional bolstering to make an effective King.

Coupled with his new found Love of Anora, and the fact that Loghain is still her father whom she loves, my HN simply can't bring himself to take Loghain's life. Instead, he gives the Former Hero the chance to redeem himself by fighting alongside the Warden's against the Archdemon. He holds no grudge against Loghain for the death of his Family as it's made clear that Howe was the Architect behind the more nevarious actions associated with Loghain, playing off of the General's Paranoia. Overall, there are just as many reasons to spare Loghain as there are to Execute him, regardless of whether or not someone is playing for the White Knight Warden or Darker Warden. I give credit to Gaider and the BioWare writers for layering the choice incredibly well. 

[Xandurpein]

glenboy24 wrote...

Overall, there are just as many reasons to spare Loghain as there are to Execute him, regardless of whether or not someone is playing for the White Knight Warden or Darker Warden. I give credit to Gaider and the BioWare writers for layering the choice incredibly well. 

I totally agree. I can perfectly understand any player wanting to either save or execute him.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon: Your idea of honor is similar to Kratos's idea of redemption in God of War.

Unfortunately, I don´t know Kratos or God of War so I don´t know what that´s suppoesd to mean. Care to explain?

[Tirigon]

@ Phaonica: I guess I see your point; However, I still do not agree that the Dark Ritual gives the Archdemon a second chance; from what Morrigan tells the Dark Ritual instead FREES the old god from the taint.



Whether that´s a good idea - well I don´t know, but it allows the Warden and Alistair to survive, what is a definite bonus. On the other hand, I would always recruit Loghain if Alistair would stay, so that Loghain can kill the Archdemon and I don´t have to do the DR.



For me, it comes down to the usefulness really: The DR helps, recruiting Loghain does not because you loose Alistair.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


Let me ask my question a different way. What if the dark ritual had nothing to do with saving your life or Alistair's ? What if Morrigan just asked if she could keep the Old God soul... as a favor. You would die anyway, but she would keep the Old God soul for herself. She'll promise you that she'll raise it in a way that she perceives as to be "respectful of that from whence it came". Would you still do it?

I would tell her to f*ck off and tell Alistair to kill the Archdemon:devil:

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...
Let me ask my question a different way. What if the dark ritual had nothing to do with saving your life or Alistair's ? What if Morrigan just asked if she could keep the Old God soul... as a favor. You would die anyway, but she would keep the Old God soul for herself. She'll promise you that she'll raise it in a way that she perceives as to be "respectful of that from whence it came". Would you still do it?

No, it's a selfish choice for my characters. They tend to refuse the DR if they have Loghain because they don't exactly care about his soul.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mai 2010 - 02:23 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And then they call him ruthless......

Killing someone is one thing, destroying their soul totally different. Since when is it selfish to stop someone from ceasing to exist.

Justify killing him all you want, but sacrificing the soul of two beings...now that's just sick. and it makes Hitler and Stalin seem like saints.

phaonica: I would still do it, if only to save the Archdemon's soul, and I would forget about sparring Loghain at the Landsmeet and just order Alistair to do it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 02:54 .

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And then they call him ruthless......

Killing someone is one thing, destroying their soul totally different. Since when is it selfish to stop someone from ceasing to exist.

Justify killing him all you want, but sacrificing the soul of two beings...now that's just sick. and it makes Hitler and Stalin seem like saints.

What´s so special about a damned soul? It´s not even proven there IS a soul at all...........

[Costin_Razvan]

What´s so special about a damned soul? It´s not even proven there IS a soul at all...........

Some of us that do believe in those kind of things would disagree with your assessment with what's so special about a soul.

Besides in Thedas there is a higher power. I would say the Fade, the spirits, the demons, and the Black City are proof enough. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 03:00 .

[jpdipity]

The Dark Ritual and killing Loghain are always selfish choices for my PC.



Executing Loghain is a means to ensure stability for Alistair’s crown or my rule with Anora. Although, I don’t feel that he really repents anyway; so, he really isn't worthy of redemption in my opinion – that opinion does not drive my PC to execute him though because they don't have enough information to know that yet. I would have absolutely no issue in offering him redemption if I did not feel that he posed a threat to Alistair or my rule - my PC cannot trust him. So, he is executed simply to preserve my crown or Alistair’s crown – purely selfish.



The Dark Ritual is also a selfish act if done. My PCs do it simply because they have become friends with Morrigan and although they do not trust her completely, they believe that she would not intentionally do something that she is certain will cause the PC harm. Yes, there are risks and my PC knows that, but they are always pretty arrogant and typically self-serving; so, they are confident that they can handle the situation if needed despite a potential loss of lives in the future.



I haven’t had a fully altruistic PC yet – even the one who did the sacrifice did it because she wanted to be a martyr and couldn’t bare the thought of the taint fully taking her after seeing Tamlen.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What´s so special about a damned soul? It´s not even proven there IS a soul at all...........

Some of us that do believe in those kind of things would disagree with your assessment with what's so special about a soul.

Funnily, I happen to believe in a soul too. However, I do not think it is wise to use personal beliefs as arguments in a debate if they can´t be scientifically proven.

Besides in Thedas there is a higher power. I would say the Fade, the spirits, the demons, and the Black City are proof enough.

None of these require a soul or highe power. In fact, I think the existence of demons makes the existence of a powerful god unlikely since they would inevitably have battled each other unless one side is extinct.

[Costin_Razvan]

Funnily, I happen to believe in a soul too. However, I do not think it is wise to use personal beliefs as arguments in a debate if they can´t be scientifically proven.

The basis of that argument was made in the assumption that there is a soul and you are destroying it. Riordan himself states the Archdemon has a soul and that a Warden dies so it can be destroyed, along with the Warden's own.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 03:19 .

[Emerald Melios]

phaonica wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Morrigan is quite clear that the soul will be that of the old god, NOT the Archdemon, which is tainted. So, no it's not a second chance for the Archdemon.

You still don't know what an Old God is. If you take something evil, turn it into a darkspawn, then remove the darkspawn taint, what you are left with is still something evil. And their names--Dragon of Silence, Dragon of Chaos, Dragon of Fire, Dragon of Chains , Dragon of Beauty, Dragon of Mystery, Dragon of Night--don't give me a lot of faith in their 'goodness'.

Yeah.....Dragon God of Beauty is such a terrible menace. <_<

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Funnily, I happen to believe in a soul too. However, I do not think it is wise to use personal beliefs as arguments in a debate if they can´t be scientifically proven.

The basis of that argument was made in the assumption that there is a soul and you are destroying it. Riordan himself states the Archdemon has a soul and that a Warden dies so it can be destroyed, along with the Warden's own.

Ok, but there is still no reason to believe this soul is important for a dead person.


And don´t forget Riordan is not only Orlaisian but also annoying as hell. Wish you could just let him rot in Howe´s prison..........

[Emerald Melios]

errant_knight wrote...

ou've just outlined his crimes at the Landsmeet. If they see recruitment as a proper end for someone who abandoned the King on the battlefield, imprisoned a templar, made use of a blood mage, and sold elves into slavery, that hardly says that being a warden is something honorable.

That tiresome mentality is why I find Alistair and especially Wynne annoying. The Grey Wardens are not Jedi Knights; they aren't purity sue paladins. We don't even have to pretend to be perfect goody two-shoes anymore like in KOTOR or NWN games.

[Darkannex]

This is a toughie. I feel emotionally blackmailed by Alistair into doing something that does not benefit the Wardens for his sake. Riordin (despite his appalling lack of timing) is entirely correct. Loghain has prestige (tarnished though it is), respect and a damned fine sense of strategy. To merely kill him when we are on the eve of the battle for all our lives is wasteful and frankly stupid.



There is also a totally ironic justice in making Loghain a warden. That irony is not lost on him. While Alistair sees being a Warden as the pinnacle of all that is good and happy in the world, it couldn't be a worse punishment for Loghain.



Plus Riordan says that once Loghain is a warden - his path will ultimately draw him into combating the DS. He can't avoid it at that point. Im sure he speaks from knowledge. There have to have been wardens in the past that kicked their responsibility to the curb. It didn't matter - they ultimately ended up fighting the DS one way or another. (Even in the calling - the only exception seems to be Utha-but even she is fighting against SOME DS).



Alistair can only see that his father figure kakked it because of Loghain and nothing else. And yet it was he that put the responsibility of leading the Wardens (all two of you!) and forging the needed alliances. He makes you do all the decision making, and follows your lead. And then all of a sudden at the landsmeet he throws a temper tantrum and puts everyone at risk by his antics.



At that point I lost all real respect for him. As much as I like him - as much as I wanted to think of him as a totally good guy - I married his ass to Anora because as much as I hate her - at least she can look beyond her nose to see her face, when it suits her. Between the two of them I figured they'd be A good ruler.



Duncan would have 100% taken Loghain as a Warden. It was the most practical and neccessary thing to do. It killed his political aspirations, garnered Fereldan an ally against the Archdemon (who he could no longer deny), and killed all further infighting.



Instead Alistair had to have his way, he killed Loghain, continuing the split in opinion that caused Civil war in the first place, and then could feel better about his own life since he thinks he did something good.



Ugh.

[Darkannex]

Emerald Melios wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ou've just outlined his crimes at the Landsmeet. If they see recruitment as a proper end for someone who abandoned the King on the battlefield, imprisoned a templar, made use of a blood mage, and sold elves into slavery, that hardly says that being a warden is something honorable.

That tiresome mentality is why I find Alistair and especially Wynne annoying. The Grey Wardens are not Jedi Knights; they aren't purity sue paladins. We don't even have to pretend to be perfect goody two-shoes anymore like in KOTOR or NWN games.

Absolutely QFT! It's plot mallet hammered into your skull the whole game that the GW are NOT white knights. Nor are they black knights. They walk the line between both - doing both good and evil to achieve their ends. They end the blight, they protect people from the blight - either way - the blight has to stop. Individual moralities apply - and there is no code of chivalry involved. Alistair admits to you that the GW have to do some pretty dishonorable things to get the end they want. 

Which makes his sudden infantile turn at the landsmeet so completely baffling. I guess he just could talk the game and not play it. 

And before you drag Arl Howe into it - he attacked us, and I was given no option to spare him. Would I have? Likely not - his entire reason for betrayal was not a misguided sense of loyalty - it was spite and jealousy. Would I put him through the joining? If I had to - we need the people. But would he have partaken it? Or even survived? He's even older than Loghain. He might join and then go to the deep roads immediately XD

[Costin_Razvan]

Darkannex: Truer words were never spoken.