308 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Apparently in the Darkspawn DLC, Alistair spared Howe. Lol, justice indeed.

[Tirigon]

Darkannex wrote...

This is a toughie. I feel emotionally blackmailed by Alistair into doing something that does not benefit the Wardens for his sake. Riordin (despite his appalling lack of timing) is entirely correct. Loghain has prestige (tarnished though it is), respect and a damned fine sense of strategy. To merely kill him when we are on the eve of the battle for all our lives is wasteful and frankly stupid.

I disagree. I do NOT think it is stupid to kill an enemy, thus not only getting rid of a threat but also proving your strength.

On the contrary, I can hardly see any intelligent idea in recruiting your worst enemy and fighting alongside him.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Apparently in the Darkspawn DLC, Alistair spared Howe. Lol, justice indeed.

Probably because Alistair is a little child. Without the PC to do the bad stuff he simply can´t afford to be good, or at least he thinks so.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Apparently in the Darkspawn DLC, Alistair spared Howe. Lol, justice indeed.

Best. AU. Ever. Seeing KoP nerdrage is worth it!

[Tirigon]

Darkannex wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...

That tiresome mentality is why I find Alistair and especially Wynne annoying. The Grey Wardens are not Jedi Knights; they aren't purity sue paladins. We don't even have to pretend to be perfect goody two-shoes anymore like in KOTOR or NWN games.

Absolutely QFT! It's plot mallet hammered into your skull the whole game that the GW are NOT white knights. Nor are they black knights. They walk the line between both - doing both good and evil to achieve their ends. They end the blight, they protect people from the blight - either way - the blight has to stop. Individual moralities apply - and there is no code of chivalry involved. Alistair admits to you that the GW have to do some pretty dishonorable things to get the end they want. 

Yea and that´s why many disagree with the Grey Wardens. An order of perfect warriors should use their skills for good, and not to do evil things.

The Blight is terribly overemphasized. To be honest, human or beast enemies are far more difficult to beat than Darkspawn and the strongest bosses are not the Archdemon but others such as Gaxkang, Caridin etc...

[Verly]

Alistair does not know about the events at highever unless you are playing a human noble. So, he doesn't have any beef at all with Howe.

[Darkannex]

@Trigon : I use stupid more in the sense of wasteful. While Loghain's actions have made him a conflict for you -he does not have personal vitriol towards you (as Arl Howe obviously does). He's not out to personally get you (and your little dog too!).



You can kill him, sure. But if he surrenders-and there is an option that helps Fereldan more than his head rolling around, why not choose it? Everyone agrees that he is a master tactician. Everyone also agrees that he's gone a little over the edge in his zeal against Orlais. Best way to counter that? Prove to him that Orlais is child's play compared to the Blight. How to do it? Get the Archdemon in his head whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Make his sleep poor. Let him feel that cold fear seeping into him.



Loghain understands full well what this punishment is.



Instead of a dead body and more civil infighting you can quell all of that and *use* Loghain against the Blight (I don't mean as US fodder-Im speaking in general about his talents and tactician skills). We don't know that the next battle the AD is going to show up and that it will all be over. For all we know this war can drag on and on (this blight was ended impossibly quickly compared to the others). Why waste a valuable resource?



What my beef is - is Alistair's hypocrisy - his childishness. He makes you lead - follows along and tells you all along that GW's are not always the white knights. And then throws a hissy when you act in a way that the most senior GW recommends. Why? Because Riordan 'wasn't there to see'. That's bs. He didn't need to be there to see (i.e. get emotionally pissy over) he only saw Loghain as a damned fine tool to use against the Blight.



As for the Blight not being stronger than monsters, this is a game feature-and of course game difficulty is going to vary depending on the challenge. Gaxkhang couldn't have sacked all of denerim himself, or toppled partial of a tower by falling on it. He was a game based challenge. If you racked him up against an unharmed Archdemon, I really think he'd have been dragon food.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Apparently in the Darkspawn DLC, Alistair spared Howe. Lol, justice indeed.

Your just ****ting me, seriously. I just lost all respect I had for Alistair.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 05:22 .

[Darkannex]

To be fair - how was Ali to know? Your character died-so who was there to tell Alistair that Howe was a turd?

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh...I dunno...he might have missed the whole ****ing dungeon with people TORTURED by Howe?

My first playthrough was as a DN. So I didn't know myself what Howe did until my third playthrough. Still felt he was a bigger criminal then Loghain.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Apparently in the Darkspawn DLC, Alistair spared Howe. Lol, justice indeed.

Your just ****ting me, seriously. I just lost all respect I had for Alistair.

You had respect for Alistair? The one you are constantly whining about? You're kidding me.

[Tirigon]

Darkannex wrote...

@Trigon : I use stupid more in the sense of wasteful. While Loghain's actions have made him a conflict for you -he does not have personal vitriol towards you (as Arl Howe obviously does). He's not out to personally get you (and your little dog too!).

You can kill him, sure. But if he surrenders-and there is an option that helps Fereldan more than his head rolling around, why not choose it? Everyone agrees that he is a master tactician. Everyone also agrees that he's gone a little over the edge in his zeal against Orlais. Best way to counter that? Prove to him that Orlais is child's play compared to the Blight. How to do it? Get the Archdemon in his head whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Make his sleep poor. Let him feel that cold fear seeping into him.

Loghain understands full well what this punishment is.

The sad thing, however, is that recruiting Loghain IS awaste - you loose Alistair, the rightful heir to the throne and your oldest companion.
And I disagree that he is a good general. He might have been in the war against Orlais, but I don´t know much because I haven´t read the books yet, and my PC knows even less about that. And everything he does in the game fails.

What my beef is - is Alistair's hypocrisy - his childishness. He makes you lead - follows along and tells you all along that GW's are not always the white knights. And then throws a hissy when you act in a way that the most senior GW recommends. Why? Because Riordan 'wasn't there to see'. That's bs. He didn't need to be there to see (i.e. get emotionally pissy over) he only saw Loghain as a damned fine tool to use against the Blight.

Well I guess you have to understand Alistair (though I agree that his childishness is annoying). I wouldn´t want to have the man who killed my only friends in life in my team either.

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Oh...I dunno...he might have missed the whole ****ing dungeon with people TORTURED by Howe?

Who said he was even there? Maybe Anora didn't play her little game with Alistair?

[Costin_Razvan]

Well I guess you have to understand Alistair (though I agree that his childishness is annoying). I wouldn´t want to have the man who killed my only friends in life in my team either.

So you would have someone who murdered Children, was the one actually responsible for hiring the assassins, and tortured people? Perhaps even was responsible for bringing up the idea of selling elves?

Alistair is getting the axe on every playthrough from now on. Just screw him. Here I was about to make him solo king unhardened on my female mage who is romancing him...

 Who said he was even there? Maybe Anora didn't play her little game with Alistair?  

That's your excuse?! Maker's breath.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 05:34 .

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Phaonica: I guess I see your point; However, I still do not agree that the Dark Ritual gives the Archdemon a second chance; from what Morrigan tells the Dark Ritual instead FREES the old god from the taint.

Whether that´s a good idea - well I don´t know, but it allows the Warden and Alistair to survive, what is a definite bonus. On the other hand, I would always recruit Loghain if Alistair would stay, so that Loghain can kill the Archdemon and I don´t have to do the DR.

For me, it comes down to the usefulness really: The DR helps, recruiting Loghain does not because you loose Alistair.

And when you free Loghain from the regency, he also hopefully will do no more harm. They are the same thing.

If it all comes down to usefulness, if you don't care if something is wrong, so long as you benefit from it, why is the slavery thing not ok with you? Because you personally didn't benefit from it?

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 Who said he was even there? Maybe Anora didn't play her little game with Alistair?  

That's your excuse?! Maker's breath.

What makes you think Anora would ask Alistair for help?

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mai 2010 - 05:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ignorance is not an excuse.

[phaonica]

I generally make a rule of not executing someone just because they are a jackass. There is no telling which parts of Howe's crimes Alistair would have been in contact with.

[Darkannex]

Trigon :

The point I was trying to make - is that it comes down to Alistair throwing a hissy fit over this issue. I understand his reasoning, I even sympathize a little. I've even read D Gaider's explanation on it. I just feel that his judgement at this point is ridiculous. He wants to be King, but doesn't realize that being King means you have to do things you don't like or believe in to achieve ends that are good for everyone. It's a dangerous level of naivety in a leader. In la-la land the GW's are a holy order of pristine knights, their morales white as snow. They rescue kittens stuck in trees and help old crones across the dirt streets.



It's idealism at its worst. And it's going to get people killed. As for 'rightful heir' - there are arguments to be made on that. Anora has an equally strong claim - but the sexism of the nobles (as well as Arl Eamon's harphing on her apparent "barreness") make Alistair more appealing. Plus-they thing they can sway him. It's mentioned in game that they think him a weak ruler they can manipulate.



As for losing him - I said it was emotional blackmail, didn't I? This whole 'it's him or me' bs that puts his own self interest in front of what's best for the realm. Alistair doesn't argue that Loghain is inept, or that he is not a good tactician, or that his errors in judgement are faulty - he argues that Loghain killed his daddy-figure and should therefore die.



Frankly, I just let Ali duel him every playthrough so I don't have to deal with it. Because if Riordan gets to be reasonable, then I have to lose Alistair. I take the word of a GW who has been one as long as Duncan over King Alistair the whiny anyday.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well I guess you have to understand Alistair (though I agree that his childishness is annoying). I wouldn´t want to have the man who killed my only friends in life in my team either.

So you would have someone who murdered Children, was the one actually responsible for hiring the assassins, and tortured people? Perhaps even was responsible for bringing up the idea of selling elves?

You missed my point. This referred to Alistair being against recruiting Loghain, not to him recruiting Howe.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

If it all comes down to usefulness, if you don't care if something is wrong, so long as you benefit from it, why is the slavery thing not ok with you? Because you personally didn't benefit from it?

Because I think morale is important and I DO care whether something is right or wrong.

However, I really see no morale issues with the DR - nothing in favor of it, nothing against it. It´s neither right or wrong. It is a matter of indifference to me, so I can only decide based on its use.

Slavery however is bad.

Even worse, Loghain enslaved Fereldan citizens - the ones he should protect as regent.
I wouldn´t mind much if he´d enslaved Orlaisians or Tevinters. They have slaves themselves so they don´t deserve better anyways.

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon: Alistair does not recruit Howe. He makes a deal with him so he can secure aid against the Blight.

I just stopped believing Alistair was a good guy.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 mai 2010 - 05:52 .

[Tirigon]

Darkannex wrote...

Trigon :
The point I was trying to make - is that it comes down to Alistair throwing a hissy fit over this issue. I understand his reasoning, I even sympathize a little. I've even read D Gaider's explanation on it. I just feel that his judgement at this point is ridiculous. He wants to be King, but doesn't realize that being King means you have to do things you don't like or believe in to achieve ends that are good for everyone. It's a dangerous level of naivety in a leader. In la-la land the GW's are a holy order of pristine knights, their morales white as snow. They rescue kittens stuck in trees and help old crones across the dirt streets.

I don´t think that kind of idealism hurts a ruler. On the contrary, I think every ruler should believe in freedom, honor and justice or he´ll quickly turn into a tyrant.
Take Bhelen for example: He´s unarguably successful, but he´s still not a good ruler but a cruel tyrant.

I take the word of a GW who has been one as long as Duncan over King Alistair the whiny anyday.

I don´t. I don´t need douchebags telling me what to do (goes for Eamon, too, btw. Oh how I wish I could tell him "go to hell" and avoid the Landsmeet...) That Riordan is an Orlaisian just makes me want him dead even more.

[Costin_Razvan]

Then your a naive fool if you think honor has any place in politics.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon: Alistair does not recruit Howe. He makes a deal with him so he can secure aid against the Blight.

I just stopped believing Alistair was a good guy.

That´s wise, because he isn´t. He tries to, but of course he fails.

However, he is still nice compared with most other NPCs and many of your companions.

The likes of Howe, Loghain, Vaughan etc. don´t even TRY.