20 réponses à ce sujet

[eucatastrophe]

Given how correctly they did it in the Fade portion?

I just don't understand it. I realise lots dislike the Fade (can't agree with you, but we'll leave that for another topic) but put aside your Fade-hate for a moment: there was a polish, a fluidity to Fade shapeshifting from the very nice-looking shapeshifting dial to how seamless, and dare I say, overpowered Fade shapeshifting was.

Then they give us the mage spec. Really disappointing considering how well they did it in the Fade and how awesome it looked in the SA trailer.

As someone who adores shapeshifting and shapeshifter-types... not very impressed to say the least.

[FFTARoxorz05]

Yeah, it seems really weird on a mage. In certain other rpgs, your shapeshifter just summons and isn't god awful in melee anyway, so poofing into a bear isn't so bad (and you should have the feat that lets you cast while shifted anyway). In this game you're seriously gimping yourself if you don't have cc from being a mage, and so far the only use it has is when you run out of mana and mana potions.



Side note: is it me, or is spirit healer the only good mage specialization? Blood mage will mess with the story and arcane warrior requires you to build around it from the get-go if you don't use a respec mod.

[CybAnt1]

Shapeshifter Plus makes it work the way most people want it to (i.e. you can do decent damage in bear/spider form when your mage is holding a staff beforehand and wearing no armor).



It doesn't make the shapeshift instantaneous (which is how it looks in the Sacred Ashes trailer, plus I'll be darned if that spider form doesn't also look more powerful & awesome) ... but other mods that affect spellcasting & talents can do that. That tends to be the second major complaint.



As for not having access to spells or items while in shapeshifted form, well, yes, but that's true of most games. At least if you get the instant-shift mods, you can quickly shift into human form, throw a spell/quaff a potion/use an item, then shift back into beast form again.

[hexaligned]

A well built shapeshifter is just as strong as a warrior, you just can't mindlessly pump magic and willpower and expect it to turn out all right. Compared to a caster mage, they aren't nearly as useful no, still perfectly viable if you have another mage in your party doing the whole CC/heal/aoe thing. It's one of the few balanced classes in the game imo, it could use some more original shapes though, spider meh, bear meh, swarm of deadly deadly bees somewhat cool. I'd like to see baby drakeling shape, maybe werewolf, or puma or something that isn't in the game as an enemy.

As to SH being the only good mage spec, I'm going to have to throw a "no" out there. AW is the most powerfull spec in the game, with BM coming in not too far behind.

Modifié par relhart, 09 mai 2010 - 04:18 .

[grimtoothy]

I just wish they would remove/lessen the spell casting time. But no luck for those of us in xbox land.

[soteria]

If they eliminated the casting time, shapeshifting would be as OP as mana clash. GG infinite health...

[eucatastrophe]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Shapeshifter Plus makes it work the way most people want it to (i.e. you can do decent damage in bear/spider form when your mage is holding a staff beforehand and wearing no armor).

It doesn't make the shapeshift instantaneous (which is how it looks in the Sacred Ashes trailer, plus I'll be darned if that spider form doesn't also look more powerful & awesome) ... but other mods that affect spellcasting & talents can do that. That tends to be the second major complaint.

As for not having access to spells or items while in shapeshifted form, well, yes, but that's true of most games. At least if you get the instant-shift mods, you can quickly shift into human form, throw a spell/quaff a potion/use an item, then shift back into beast form again.

Thanks for mentioning the mod, I'll check it out.

[eucatastrophe]

relhart wrote...

A well built shapeshifter is just as strong as a warrior, you just can't mindlessly pump magic and willpower and expect it to turn out all right. Compared to a caster mage, they aren't nearly as useful no, still perfectly viable if you have another mage in your party doing the whole CC/heal/aoe thing. It's one of the few balanced classes in the game imo, it could use some more original shapes though, spider meh, bear meh, swarm of deadly deadly bees somewhat cool. I'd like to see baby drakeling shape, maybe werewolf, or puma or something that isn't in the game as an enemy.

As to SH being the only good mage spec, I'm going to have to throw a "no" out there. AW is the most powerfull spec in the game, with BM coming in not too far behind.

As someone who plays a mean feral druid in my last game, WoW, I am definitely familiar with the concept of speccing and gearing against the norm to get the maximum benefits of the spec. I'm also familiar that in exchange for my shapeshifting, I end up sacrificing some utility buffs and spells that I might have brought to the party.

I just think the whole mechanic on the mage feels really clunky the way its been put in with the cast time, and I think it's done way better in the Fade. If it makes its way back into DA2 in some shape or form, I would pray that they rework it into something better.

Oh, and I thought Spider form was pretty fresh and unique concept. As was the locust swarm. As lulzy as it was

Modifié par eucatastrophe, 09 mai 2010 - 01:42 .

[eucatastrophe]

soteria wrote...

If they eliminated the casting time, shapeshifting would be as OP as mana clash. GG infinite health...

As I said, they would definitely need to make slight tweaks to it and to how you had to spec your character to make full  and best use of the tree. At least it might hold a candle besides AW/BM/SH

It's definitely workable as relhart pointed out, but it doesn't seem to be optimum in the slightest (I'm willing to settle, but when the tradeoff is so low... not worth it.)

[Rhys Cordelle]

Spider form isn't fresh if you've spent the last 8 years playing Neverwinter Nights >< (speaking of which, I wish you could shift into a black panther )



I definitely agree that shifting needs to be reworked. What's great about the Fade forms is not just the instant shifting, but the fact that each form has it's uses and its flaws. A shifter without a good range of utility moves is basically just an inefficient warrior. The infinite health issue could easily be resolved too.

[CybAnt1]

I liked the shifter prestige class in NWN. I was puzzled when it disappeared in later games. Prior to its disappearance, they had trouble getting your shifted forms to use their special form-specific abilities. I always assumed that was the reason why.



I also like the shifting abilities of druids in WoW. There's no real use for the travel forms in this non-exploration/sandbox world. But the panther's ability to stealth and the bear's ability to regenerate & attack multiple enemies allowed the druid to play any role (dps/tank).

[soteria]

I definitely agree that shifting needs to be reworked. What's great about the Fade forms is not just the instant shifting, but the fact that each form has it's uses and its flaws. A shifter without a good range of utility moves is basically just an inefficient warrior. The infinite health issue could easily be resolved too.

Yeah, the forms are very distinct and one never really completely replaces another. But for me, it's the same reason my mage didn't really use shapeshifting in the Fade: why would I trade 6-7 handpicked spells that do a lot of damage/utility for 2 or 3 abilities with no customization?

[Aulis Vaara]

Because the Burning Man is immune to fire, for one, making it a very potent form against many of the mages present in the fade. The Golem form helped me greatly against the masses, and the spirit form was a good against demons. All very useful.

[Sammy0721]

It is quite possible the shape shifting in the fade, destroyed the shape shifting line of spells.



1. Only the bear stacks armor with a +10 bonus

2. Attacks are mostly linked to strength (spider and bear)

3. I think if you have a wand before you shapeshift, you will always hit

4. Damage is based on strength ...not magic (and spider poison is based on dexterity)

5. The fade base damage is based on your strength,dex, (cunning with lethality)

6. Basically there are only two mage specializations (BM and SH) ... AW is nice but so overpowering you don't need other spells (with some spells sheathing a sword) and a SS is pointless without dex or strength to increase the damage output

[Rhys Cordelle]

Sammy0721 wrote...

It is quite possible the shape shifting in the fade, destroyed the shape shifting line of spells.

1. Only the bear stacks armor with a +10 bonus
2. Attacks are mostly linked to strength (spider and bear)
3. I think if you have a wand before you shapeshift, you will always hit
4. Damage is based on strength ...not magic (and spider poison is based on dexterity)
5. The fade base damage is based on your strength,dex, (cunning with lethality)
6. Basically there are only two mage specializations (BM and SH) ... AW is nice but so overpowering you don't need other spells (with some spells sheathing a sword) and a SS is pointless without dex or strength to increase the damage output

Can arcane warrior and shapeshifter work together or do you go out of combat magic mode when you shift?

[soteria]

They work together in the sense that you can equip armor and keep the bonus if it's higher than the armor bonus from spellpower.  Bear will add +10 armor to your armor score on top of that.

This thread has some pretty exhaustive research on shapeshifting:

http://social.biowar...66/index/739982

Modifié par soteria, 11 mai 2010 - 03:01 .

[grimtoothy]

I think they should reduce the cast time from 2 seconds to 1 second in the name of Maximum Game Fun. It's NOT fun to wait around while you transform into a shape. The shapes are not that useful relative the the costs. No healing, no casting or sustainables & long waittime to transform = no fun.



I'm NOT advocating for casting ability or sustainables in shapeshifted forms. But, the wait time is VERY annoying considering the forms we get.

[KragCulloden]

eucatastrophe wrote...


Given how correctly they did it in the Fade portion?

I just don't understand it. I realise lots dislike the Fade (can't agree with you, but we'll leave that for another topic) but put aside your Fade-hate for a moment: there was a polish, a fluidity to Fade shapeshifting from the very nice-looking shapeshifting dial to how seamless, and dare I say, overpowered Fade shapeshifting was.

Then they give us the mage spec. Really disappointing considering how well they did it in the Fade and how awesome it looked in the SA trailer.

As someone who adores shapeshifting and shapeshifter-types... not very impressed to say the least.

Just had to say I agree completely, and had thought the same several times while playing.  I enjoy the fade section quite a bit - one of my favorite parts of the game in fact.  X-president's guide is a marvelous resource, but still, the spec could have been so much better.  Druids and shifters in NWN were a lot of fun....

[FFTARoxorz05]

I'd also like to point out that this is a slight problem with the classes in DAO as a whole. Where as in another game the shapeshifter would be a class with extra stuff for actually doing damage in your forms or allowing casting while shapeshifted (dunno if the Baldurs Gates had that but your druid was a beatstick anyway), you're stuck with a whopping 4 abilities/spells to get for each specialization. I haven't seen the argument here, but that definitely doesn't qualify each spec as its own class, especially when shapeshifter makes every other ability you get as a mage useless.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

If shapeshifting was like the fade, I bet that would be more overpowered than an arcane warrior. I liked the fluidity of shifting into useful creatures. Shapeshifting is so stupid outside of the fade; I wonder what they were thinking...

[Sammy0721]

I am halfway with my shapeshifting mage, and it is overpowering if you play it the right way.



Here are the tactics

1. Overwhelm elites, human type bosses and mages with bear and spider forms

2. Use swarm on archers

3. Use AOE spells (fireball, chain lightning, the fire and electric cone) to soften the mobs

4. Between fireball, glyph of paralysis, mindblast, grease and level 4 combat training gives you plenty of time to change form

5. Flank the dragons with a tank as a distraction

6. Recommended gear (spellward - for willpower, lifegiver - for health and tanking/off tank (revs and dragons), reaper's vestment (constitution, armor and low-low fatigue), magister's lord staff (willpower)

7. Focus on activated spells (elemental, CC spells like glyphs, paralyze, mindblast, cones, hexes)



I would not build an AW and SS together because it does not create a balanced build. Most AW uses magic for melee damage, whereas shapeshifter can only use strength for damage. A shapeshifter with a nice equipped wand will never miss and is more mana friendly (does not use as many mana pots) so you can literally cast crushing prison, fireball, grease, inferno, chain lightning, vulnerability hex, winter grasp, arcane bolt and still have mana left over ... for most AW builds its combat magic and two spells before you go to melee or a big mana pot because the sustainables.