132 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Dokarqt wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Again, you're telling him it's not a problem. You have two answer there that shuts everything down entirely. *sigh*

Really, guys, if another man said to you, "Would you be offended if I said I fancied you," if you're not gay or at least not interested, wouldn't you want to make it REALLY clear that you're not interested? Of course, why you're asking him what he fancies when he's talking about being a crow gets you women, men, or whatever you fancy is not paying too much attention to the dialog either.

I'm generally clueless, and even I can see the tone of the conversation.

If a man asked me that question I would let him know that I was flattered but straight, I would not however be rude about it. There is no real polite way to let Zevran know you're not interested in men in some of the flirting dialogue.

I've also had the issue of turning zevran down "properly" in one flirting dialogue only to have the romance track turn itself on again by me simply being nice in subsequent conversations.

You can turn it off permanently at the beginning.  Tell him you will never be more than friends when he discusses your plans for him after the blight.  

And I guess I just don't agree that you're being nice when you tell him it's ok that he keeps on flirting.  I don't see the turn off lines as particularly rude, either.  And again, with the "what is it you fancy," WHY are you asking him if he fancies women or men or whatever if you're not interested in a romance?  Just pick another line there.

Here are romance starter lines, which he then turns around and confirms before turning on the romance:

Handsome elf like you? I can think of a few things.
There's always a use or two for a handsome elf.
What is it you fancy?
So you never mix business with pleasure?
Do you stare at everyone that way?
After I ravish you in celebration?
I consider us more than friends.

Avoid these lines, you should be fine.

Edit: You won't get as high of approval if you avoid these lines, of course.  That's true of all the characters -- you get the most approval when romancing them.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 08:51 .

[Bootsykk]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Just like in real life, a clear "No" is always far better than being coy.  "Should I not" is asking if he should stop flirting with you.  I mean, seriously, if a man was complementing me and it was not something I was interested in pursuing, I'd say he should not! 

I don't think people see it as being coy.  They are trying to be polite, and "you should not" is very abrupt.

I don't remember exactly how it went down, but I do remember that on my HNM character, I wasn't happy with the dialogue choices I was given.  Aedan had to say "no but don't bother," which in itself sounds rude, and also ended up being understood by Zevran as an accusation that he was trying to play an assassin's trick.  Rather than the intended "no I'm not offended, but I'm straight so there's no point."

But I think we're actually talking about two different conversations.  The one I'm thinking of is where Zevran calls you a handsome Grey Warden, I think.  I guess I could try to replay a few things to check, it's a bit fuzzy.

You have to keep in mind the way it's phrased. So many people read the dialogue replies quickly, rather than aloud.
"Should I not?" *flirty tone here*
"You should not."
The fact that you simply throw his words back at him is offensive. Here's another example of the snarky, reverse-order response.
"Did you tell John Doe that I wasn't very smart?"
"I did tell John Doe that you aren't very smart."
This is called mockery. Social graces are sometimes hard to translate into a video game, but if you actually do immerse yourself enough, the fact that you can mock Zevran is very nice. In the other conversation, in which you can reply, "No, but you needn't bother", you are telling Zevran "No, I'm not offended by your compliment, and I'm flattered, but you needn't bother, because I either just want to be your friend or I'm not bisexual or I'm in a relationship."

EDIT: Ayy, I'm getting this confused with another conversation. Just saw the one you were referring to--and I incorrectly went all grammar-english-freak. xD

Modifié par Juneya, 09 mai 2010 - 08:56 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Again, you're telling him it's not a problem. You have two answer there that shuts everything down entirely. *sigh*

Really, guys, if another man said to you, "Would you be offended if I said I fancied you," if you're not gay or at least not interested, wouldn't you want to make it REALLY clear that you're not interested? Of course, why you're asking him what he fancies when he's talking about being a crow gets you women, men, or whatever you fancy is not paying too much attention to the dialog either.

I'm generally clueless, and even I can see the tone of the conversation.

I think you know the character so well, however, that it's different than when people come at these dialogues who are more "fresh."

With Aedan I knew I was turning the romance on by asking what Zevran fancies, but to me it was the IC thing to ask and I can imagine for another player they wouldn't take it as a come-on, either.  My PC was genuinely curious.  While homosexual relationships are known in Ferelden, people seem to be more discreet about them, and by that time Zevran had twice openly talked about fancying men.  It didn't seem out of place to ask him which way he swings.  Face it, a young heterosexual man will want to know for sure, if he's going to be in close quarters with someone.  It's the more polite equivalent of Oghren's "keep your pants where I can see them."  LOL

That being the route I went, when it came to the conversation where Zevran called Aedan handsome, the dialogue options did not seem very adequate.  There was nothing which said "no offense but I'm straight."  I either had to accuse him of playing seductive assassin or give a very cold reply.

[Bootsykk]

ejoslin wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Again, you're telling him it's not a problem. You have two answer there that shuts everything down entirely. *sigh*

Really, guys, if another man said to you, "Would you be offended if I said I fancied you," if you're not gay or at least not interested, wouldn't you want to make it REALLY clear that you're not interested? Of course, why you're asking him what he fancies when he's talking about being a crow gets you women, men, or whatever you fancy is not paying too much attention to the dialog either.

I'm generally clueless, and even I can see the tone of the conversation.

If a man asked me that question I would let him know that I was flattered but straight, I would not however be rude about it. There is no real polite way to let Zevran know you're not interested in men in some of the flirting dialogue.

I've also had the issue of turning zevran down "properly" in one flirting dialogue only to have the romance track turn itself on again by me simply being nice in subsequent conversations.

Here are romance starter lines, which he then turns around and confirms before turning on the romance:

What is it you fancy?


Edit: You won't get as high of approval if you avoid these lines, of course.  That's true of all the characters -- you get the most approval when romancing them.

EJ, are you sure? On my games this line would always be perfectly fine, long as I said "No, but you needn't bother."

OH, and how do you access the conversation trees in the toolset? I've always wanted to read them over.

[ejoslin]

Juneya wrote...

EJ, are you sure? On my games this line would always be perfectly fine, long as I said "No, but you needn't bother." 

OH, and how do you access the conversation trees in the toolset? I've always wanted to read them over.

He confirms it ALWAYS. Any of those answers, it doesn't turn on the romance, but it DOES lead to him asking if you mean what he thinks you do.

Edit: Added quote for context.

If you want to read Zevran's dialog in the toolset, just click on the dialog button in the palette window, and type in zevran and then click on zevran_main.  That brings it up.

Second edit: Yeh, Zevran is different from the other characters in that he does confirm before turning on the romance.  With Alistair and Leliana, if you choose the wrong line, the romance starts, no confirmation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 08:58 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

You can turn it off permanently at the beginning.  Tell him you will never be more than friends when he discusses your plans for him after the blight.  

I addressed the "fancy" line a bit up above, but I'll say that at this early stage, some (many?) PCs will find it difficult to imagine that you will end up friends with the assassin who tried to kill you.  I can't remember how I replied to this on Aedan, but I think it was more the "you can leave if you want" route.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You can turn it off permanently at the beginning.  Tell him you will never be more than friends when he discusses your plans for him after the blight.  

I addressed the "fancy" line a bit up above, but I'll say that at this early stage, some (many?) PCs will find it difficult to imagine that you will end up friends with the assassin who tried to kill you.  I can't remember how I replied to this on Aedan, but I think it was more the "you can leave if you want" route.

It's not the only place to turn off the romance permanently.  It's just the easiest.  But why is it more difficult to tell someone that as a friend only than as maybe more than a friend or a FWB.  That conversation he asks very pointedly if you see him as more than a friend.  The response, "We'll have to see," is obviously in response to whether you'd be more than friends.

Edit: I've always found a clear "no" while it FEELS more harsh, is actually far nicer than trying to spare someone's feelings. I've never had someone get mad at me for that either, and have ended up with some terrific friends once it's clear that there's not going to be anything more than friendship.  As fun as it is to flirt, if it's someone you have to have daily contact with, it's best to just have it out in the open that, sorry, no.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 09:03 .

[Bootsykk]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You can turn it off permanently at the beginning.  Tell him you will never be more than friends when he discusses your plans for him after the blight.  

I addressed the "fancy" line a bit up above, but I'll say that at this early stage, some (many?) PCs will find it difficult to imagine that you will end up friends with the assassin who tried to kill you.  I can't remember how I replied to this on Aedan, but I think it was more the "you can leave if you want" route.

If I recall, I thought he actually approved of this? Or maybe it was after the assassination attempt that reluctantly saying he is bound to no oath gives the massive approval gain.

And thank you, EJ

[ArawnNox]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe in Orlais throwing gifts at someone's head and refusing to talk to them is a form of courting.

I think they used to call that "Courtley Love" in the 15th century.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Leliana always ninja-romances me. Apparently the easiest way to avoid it is to be rude to her during the hair conversation. Even that doesn't always work, though.

I know how you can prevent it: Take her to the Gauntlet and defile the ashes.

[ejoslin]

addai67, Zevran is the one character I've never turned on accidentally. Alistair actually I think his lines are obvious as well, but he doesn't confirm it so it's easier to turn him on. Leliana, dear lord, yeh, wow, I was surprised at some of the romance starters.

The "what is it you fancy" conversation to me... Am I really in a minority as seeing that as flirting? I mean, THIS is the dialog.

Zevran: In Antiva, being a Crow gets you respect. It gets you wealth. It gets you women... and men, or whatever it is you might fancy.
Zevran: But that does mean doing what is expected of you, always. And it means being expendable. It's a cage, if a gilded cage. Pretty. But confining.
Warden: So what is it you fancy, exactly?

I mean, ok, MAYBE since there's the line in between him talking about getting women, men, or whatever you fancy that could be mistaken, BUT then when he answers...

Zevran: I fancy many things. I fancy things that are beautiful and things that are strong. I fancy things that are dangerous and exciting. Would you be offended if I said I fancied you?

HOW much more clear could he be? I mean, you really would have to have something like {romance starter line here} in order for it to be any more clear.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 09:09 .

[ArawnNox]

In my current playthrough, I purposefully wanted there to be an emotional tug-of-war between Zev and Leli for the affections of my Surana. However, I'm actually having more trouble getting Zev's attention than Leli's.

While on that note, I found that Leli's romance triggers from the Marjolaine event, even if you weren't actively romancing her. Imagine the surprise on my face when that happened when my Cousland was romancing Alistair. Combined with the "I'm sorry I had to end it" dialogue options after swatting her with a newspaper had me going "I thought they were just being good friends..."

The best place to put her down is the hair conversation, and it HAS to be firm. I don't remember the option, but its the harsh sounding one. It will save a lot of approval loss. >.>

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

HOW much more clear could he be? I mean, you really would have to have something like {romance starter line here} in order for it to be any more clear.

At that point it is clear that Zevran is flirting, but you don't have to answer him in a way that turns the romance off.

I took some screenies on Aedan to illustrate, but it will take me a moment to upload.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mai 2010 - 09:23 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

HOW much more clear could he be? I mean, you really would have to have something like {romance starter line here} in order for it to be any more clear.

At that point it is clear that Zevran is flirting, but you don't have to answer him in a way that turns the romance off.

I took some screenies on Aedan to illustrate, but it will take me a moment to upload.

Addai67, I have the toolset.  I KNOW this.  But if you are NOT clear, why should be be a surprise if the romance starts?

Edit: Here's the answers, approval changes, and romance results for the answers there.

Warden: No, but you needn't bother. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_LOW) then the romance cuts off permanently.
Warden: Not at all. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_INC_low) turns the romance on
Warden: But I'm a man. (this leads to further dialog)
Warden: Err... yes, actually. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_HIGH) romance is cut off and leads to a dialog that says THIS:
Zevran: You did ask, remember? But I believe we were talking about my leaving the Crows.

Ok, then there's this branch.
Warden: But I'm a man. 
Zevran: <desc>Chuckles</desc> Oh... you are speaking seriously, aren't you?
Zevran: I do forget that this is not Antiva City. We are... a little more open-minded about such things, where I hail from. Is this something that I should beg pardon for?
Warden: No, just don't do it again. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_LOW) and cuts of romance
Warden: I should hope so! (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_HIGH)
Warden: No, I just... was surprised. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_INC_LOW) Turns on romance.

See, in all of these, the romance turn on lines are someone not giving a clear "No, I'm not interested."  

Even in the last dialog, you have a choice that says, "No, just don't do it again."  You're telling him he did nothing wrong, but to stop.

He asks if it's ok.  It's up to the warden whether to be clear in a refusal but respectful, rude, or let Zevran know the flirting is ok, though maybe unexpected.  Again, when I've run across this situation in my life, I would say answer 1 is FAR nicer than answer 3 if the feeling isn't mutual.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 09:35 .

[maxernst]

It's funny, in my playthrough I had very good relations with Leli, but she never got romantically interested at all. Neither did Morrigan. it might have been a side-effect of the Equal Love mod,

Zev did...and while I agree that you are encouraging him to flirt a little with the "not at all", it's really only a little. And Zev flirts with everybody, so I didn't think that I had really turned the romance on. I was rather startled to have to say oh, we can only be friends much much later in the game when the romance never progressed beyond that line, I was in full love with Alistair at that point and never got the "jealous Alistair" conversation, either.

[ejoslin]

Any flirting with any companion will turn the romance on. Your Warden is all that and the cherry on top. 

The reason you never had jealous alistair is the "we'll have to be friends," dialog triggers at 26+, so at reasonably low approval, and to get jealousy with Alistair, he and Zevran both have to be at 71+ adore.

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 mai 2010 - 09:37 .

[Yendi]

I kind of think all the characters exept Morrigans "not interested" options sound a bit rude but on the other hand failing to answer like that has gotten me into some weird situations in real life. Actually Zevran is the only one I've not gotten by mistake but that is probably because I meant to get the warden involved with him in most cases.

[BHRamsay]

thegreateski wrote...

On a related note.

At least you didn't fall for the old "Antivan massage" trick.

That has never happened to me but I did find out that a trip to isabella's will trigger a romance with anyone you take with you ...or anyone who goes along at least.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Warden: No, but you needn't bother. (SET: APP_ZEVRAN_DEC_LOW) then the romance cuts off permanently.

My PC gave this response, and yet afterward Zevran still gave him the "handsome Grey Warden" dialogue and the "what if we became fond of each other" dialogue.  So either it's not permanent- because in both of those subsequent dialogues there is an opportunity to turn it back on- or else it doesn't cut it off at all.  And I think it's conceivable that people could pick dialogue options in those later conversations which aren't clear.  If you try to be polite and non-judgmental in your responses, you end up sending the wrong signal, I suppose.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mai 2010 - 09:58 .

[Tinxa]

I have no experiance with Zevran and male chars yet, but how do you people manage to start a romance with Leliana when you don't want to???



I'm always very nice with her, I often choose girly replies about hair and shoes and it never happened once. All you have to do is stay away from OBVIOUS options like "Do you often enjoy the company of women?" and similar but I never had to be rude. The hair conversation never gave me trouble.

[Xandurpein]

ejoslin wrote...

 Your Warden is all that and the cherry on top. 

This. Face it, your Warden is just too irresistible. And besides, maybe your mouth said no, but your eyes...

[Addai]

Tinxa wrote...

I have no experiance with Zevran and male chars yet, but how do you people manage to start a romance with Leliana when you don't want to???

I'm always very nice with her, I often choose girly replies about hair and shoes and it never happened once. All you have to do is stay away from OBVIOUS options like "Do you often enjoy the company of women?" and similar but I never had to be rude. The hair conversation never gave me trouble.

I think most of us who had this happen have no idea how we did it, but I assure you, on characters where Leliana ninja-love occurred, I was not picking "obvious" lines.  For me I think it happened in talking about Marjolaine, but I honestly can't tell you how.  All I know is that my character was going hot and heavy with Zevran and then Morrigan talked about me smiling for hours since exchanging glances with "that girl."

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mai 2010 - 10:12 .

[Cuddlezarro]

, but how do you people manage to start a romance with Leliana when you don't want to???

we dont know iv been outright rude to her an entire playthrough and have had her ninja love me



hell my current avatar had to break up with her FIVE TIMES despite saying he wasnt interest ect ect ect he wasnt even that nice to her either

[webbedfeet]

I swear my Warden was thinking about food and books when he asked the 'what do you fancy' question. It never occurred to him that oops, flirting! His player was giggling like mad, however, so I should say all's well that ends well. (And for the record, I also honestly didn't think of it as flirting. In my defense, I also tend to be somewhat oblivious about getting hit on in real life. According to my facepalming colleagues.)



Now the Antivan massage one, I STILL am not quite sure how people fell for without knowing what it is. It was pretty obvious. He even asks if it's okay to have post-massage activities, how much clearer does it need to be?



One of my female chars I intended for the Leliana romance. And even so, she still took me by surprise! Her romance triggers, they are many, they are fiendish.

[Tinxa]

Hmmm that's odd. And I always thought to myself how well Leliana's conversations were made so I didn't stumble into romance despite my PC's girly friendliness.

There was even one dialogue with her when my PC said something and Leliana said our chars are just friends and there's nothing odd about that (I can't remember it exactly).