101 réponses à ce sujet

[Zogster]

A few thoughts, from a long-time D&D GM...
Samara is a Lawful Good character adhering to a strict Lawful Neutral code. She herself makes a comparison to Earth's samurai; a classic of samurai fiction is a good person being placed in an impossible moral quandry by their own code. Samara expresses regret at many of the actions that she was forced to take due to her Justicar oath, as well as times it restricts her from taking actions that she feels are justified.

Two particular examples stand out. Firstly, in her introdutory mission she purposefully arranges things to give the local police a chance to escape her code-mandated wrath by allowing Shepard to find the killer in her stead. In addition, if a renegade Shepard completes her loyalty mission (with her alive, obviously), she states that she is glad for her oath of service to Shepard - otherwise, she would kill Shepard for his/her unjust actions.

More later, when I'm not sleepy.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I kind of think the whole alignment thing is restrictive baloney.

Only if you're doing it wrong. Alignment is supposed to be descriptive, rather than prescriptive or prohibitive. I let my players do what they like. They just end up altering their alignment if they do something outside of it too often.

[Nivenus]

wizardryforever wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...


Also, I'd say that Morinth is Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil. She doesn't wreak havoc just for kicks, she is very cold and calculating, but still looks out for numero uno (herself).

On the contrary, she DOES do it for kicks so to speak. She gets HIGH from each kill she does. She gets more powerfull with each person she drains, gets strong euphoria when doing so, and has to kill more because its so incredibly addicting. Her condition is not exactly her choice, yes, but she had a choice to separate herself from civilization but instead she chose to keep feeding her condition because she enjoys it so much.

This really spells as Chaotic Evil to me. Self preservation is meaningles as chaotic evil can also try to keep herself safe.

But she doesn't wreak havoc by killing one person every few months, she's wantonly destructive, which is what chaotic evil is.  If there was no framework for society, then she couldn't operate as effectively.  Maybe I'm not saying it well enough, it's early.

Hate to say it, but you're both wrong. Neutral evil is about self-preservation and looking out for numero uno, not chaotic evil. Evil is about selfishness and putting the needs and wants of yourself above the needs and wants of others, ultimately, and a neutral evil character is wholly into that without any distractions the way lawful evil and chaotic evil characters have.

If Morinth is looking after herself first and foremost, she's neutral evil.

[Onyx Jaguar]

rofl, it now makes sense why after taking that quiz I was classified as Lawful Evil



>

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Collider wrote...
Lawful Good - Kaidan, Samara
Neutral Good - Ashley, Jacob, Tali
Chaotic Good - Garrus, Kasumi, Mordin, Thane
Lawful Neutral -
True Neutral - Legion, Samara, Miranda, Zaeed, Wrex
Chaotic Neutral - Grunt, Jack
Lawful Evil -
Neutral Evil - Morinth
Chaotic Evil -

Yes i think you have it here.

[enormousmoonboots]

Collider wrote...

I kind of think the whole alignment thing is restrictive baloney.

Only if you're playing a monk or paladin, really. Though it does depend on your DM and party. Some DMs will punish a paladin just because their party members are of an evil alignment and they're not actively killing them (and some paladins ignore their code and yell GREATER GOOD GREATER GOOD whenever they do something not LG :T).

And alignment is mutable, remember.

[MaaZeus]

Nivenus wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...


Also, I'd say that Morinth is Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil. She doesn't wreak havoc just for kicks, she is very cold and calculating, but still looks out for numero uno (herself).

On the contrary, she DOES do it for kicks so to speak. She gets HIGH from each kill she does. She gets more powerfull with each person she drains, gets strong euphoria when doing so, and has to kill more because its so incredibly addicting. Her condition is not exactly her choice, yes, but she had a choice to separate herself from civilization but instead she chose to keep feeding her condition because she enjoys it so much.

This really spells as Chaotic Evil to me. Self preservation is meaningles as chaotic evil can also try to keep herself safe.

But she doesn't wreak havoc by killing one person every few months, she's wantonly destructive, which is what chaotic evil is.  If there was no framework for society, then she couldn't operate as effectively.  Maybe I'm not saying it well enough, it's early.

Hate to say it, but you're both wrong. Neutral evil is about self-preservation and looking out for numero uno, not chaotic evil. Evil is about selfishness and putting the needs and wants of yourself above the needs and wants of others, ultimately, and a neutral evil character is wholly into that without any distractions the way lawful evil and chaotic evil characters have.

If Morinth is looking after herself first and foremost, she's neutral evil.

Perhaps, but does chaos necessarily mean complete havoc around her? While she is calculating like NE is, she is still chaotic as she is driven by an primordial urge she cannot suppress anymore, she has to feed and grow strength.

Heh, this is why D&D classifications are difficult, there are so many POV variables.

[Nivenus]

@MaasZeus: No, a chaotic evil character doesn't have to be an anarchist. But what they are is destructive, both of themselves and others - they are the destroying, rather than the liberating, aspect of chaos. If you think Morinth is more driven by a desire she can't control than simply looking out for numero uno, than yes, she's chaotic evil. If, on the other hand, she really is just concerned with her own welfare with no competing drives, than she's neutral evil.

[MaaZeus]

Nivenus wrote...

@MaasZeus: No, a chaotic evil character doesn't have to be an anarchist. But what they are is destructive, both of themselves and others - they are the destroying, rather than the liberating, aspect of chaos. If you think Morinth is more driven by a desire she can't control than simply looking out for numero uno, than yes, she's chaotic evil. If, on the other hand, she really is just concerned with her own welfare with no competing drives, than she's neutral evil.

Now that I am thinking about it, most likely she has her toes in both ponds. She does seem to be hard to classify exactly. Her behaviour and strong sense of self preservation spells NE, but she is still driven by CE urge.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 11 mai 2010 - 10:01 .

[tanarri23]

LG - Tali

NG - Kaidan, Liara (ME)

CG - Garrus, Mordin



LN - Samara, Legion, Miranda (maybe with a touch of LE)

N - Ashley, Jacob, Wrex, Zaeed, Thane, Liara (ME2)

CN - Grunt, Kasumi



LE - The Illusive Man, Reapers

NE - Saren

CE - Morinth, Jack

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Collider wrote...

I kind of think the whole alignment thing is restrictive baloney.

Only if you're playing a monk or paladin, really. Though it does depend on your DM and party. Some DMs will punish a paladin just because their party members are of an evil alignment and they're not actively killing them (and some paladins ignore their code and yell GREATER GOOD GREATER GOOD whenever they do something not LG :T).

And alignment is mutable, remember.

It's just that it doesn't leave a lot of room for moral complexity.  Maybe your character is really nice to other humans, but is a complete racist when it comes to elves, dwarves and the rest.  Would their alignment be chaotic goodish-evil, or would it just change from day to day depending on who they were with?  A lot of other rpgs got by without alignments & they've always seemed unnecessary to me.

[Dokarqt]

dipdunk wrote...

Lawful Good - Samara
Neutral Good - Tali, Ash
Chaotic Good - Garrus (good, but very anti-"doing things by the book")
Lawful Neutral - Zaeed, Thane (don't care about good or evil, each one just follows the contract)
True Neutral - Legion
Chaotic Neutral - Grunt (doesn't care about good or evil, just wants to kill stuff)
Lawful Evil -
Neutral Evil -
Chaotic Evil - Morinth, Jack

Samara is far more lawful neutral then lawful good.

Zaeed is more true neutral or even chaotic neutral then lawful neutral imo.

[Dokarqt]

dipdunk wrote...


Jacob and Miranda are hard to pin down.

Mordin is definitely good.  He has a very strict morality he follows in regards to the genophage, but the sterilization of an entire race makes it hard to list him as lawful good.

Alenko and Jacob are candidates for the new designation of Bland Neutral.

Jacob is Neural Good in my book. Alenko is tougher as I must admit to limited knowledge of his character, I found him so boring I never bothered with him.

[sagefic]

Collider wrote...

I kind of think the whole alignment thing is restrictive baloney.

QFT

with that said, the paragon/renegade bar is about the only alignment thing in a game that i've liked. evil usually = stupidly self destructive. the renegade at least has a good point most of the time - well...mebbe.

[Sago_mulch]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

How exactly do the alignments work.

BASICLY IT GOES LIKE THIS;

IT OPERATES ON A SYSTEM OF TWO AXIS, ONE CONSISTS OF LAWFUL, NEUTRAL AND CHAOTIC. THE OTHER GOOD, NEUTRAL AND EVIL.

TL;DR, LOOK AT THE PICTURE

[wizardryforever]

MaaZeus wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...


Also, I'd say that Morinth is Neutral Evil instead of Chaotic Evil. She doesn't wreak havoc just for kicks, she is very cold and calculating, but still looks out for numero uno (herself).

On the contrary, she DOES do it for kicks so to speak. She gets HIGH from each kill she does. She gets more powerfull with each person she drains, gets strong euphoria when doing so, and has to kill more because its so incredibly addicting. Her condition is not exactly her choice, yes, but she had a choice to separate herself from civilization but instead she chose to keep feeding her condition because she enjoys it so much.

This really spells as Chaotic Evil to me. Self preservation is meaningles as chaotic evil can also try to keep herself safe.

But she doesn't wreak havoc by killing one person every few months, she's wantonly destructive, which is what chaotic evil is.  If there was no framework for society, then she couldn't operate as effectively.  Maybe I'm not saying it well enough, it's early.

Hate to say it, but you're both wrong. Neutral evil is about self-preservation and looking out for numero uno, not chaotic evil. Evil is about selfishness and putting the needs and wants of yourself above the needs and wants of others, ultimately, and a neutral evil character is wholly into that without any distractions the way lawful evil and chaotic evil characters have.

If Morinth is looking after herself first and foremost, she's neutral evil.

Perhaps, but does chaos necessarily mean complete havoc around her? While she is calculating like NE is, she is still chaotic as she is driven by an primordial urge she cannot suppress anymore, she has to feed and grow strength.

Heh, this is why D&D classifications are difficult, there are so many POV variables.

I believe the point that I was originally trying to make was that Morinth doesn't wreak havoc unless she feels it necessary (wanton destruction, not serial killings), and so that makes her neutral evil.  If she were chaotic evil she would do whatever she wanted without regard for the consequences, as opposed to the occasional carefully planned killing by snu-snu.  For the same reason many people see Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid, they also see Chaotic Evil as Chaotic Stupid, since the character's own nature interferes with their goals.

As far as D&D classifications go, they aren't perfect, but they allow for almost any behavior.  This includes small character flaws in contradiction to their alignment, like greed on a Lawful Good character.  Of course, some see classifications of personalities as restrictive (a classic chaotic perspective, by the way) and would prefer to get rid of the system altogether.  I personally am of the opinion that there is a place for everything (and everyone), and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who utterly defies the classification of D&D alignment, since most people like that are just Neutral.

[Jzadek72]

Samara is NOT lawful good. She is lawful neutral - lives by a code, but is pretty ****ing evil if need be.

[Zilod]

ok lets try

Lawful Good - Kaidan, Ashley, Thane
Neutral Good - Jacob, Tali
Chaotic Good - Garrus, Kasumi,
Lawful Neutral - Samara, Miranda
True Neutral - Legion, Mordin, Wrex
Chaotic Neutral - Grunt
Lawful Evil -
Neutral Evil - Morinth, Zaeed
Chaotic Evil - Jack

few considerations...

Samara imo cant be LG, as she basically have no moral, she obey to a code and she do what the code tells her... she is ready to kill all the (innocent) policewoman just because they interfere with the code... probably she was good in nature but when she became a justicar for her thers only the code and its inflexible justice

Thane is an assassin but i put him as a LG mostly because the cultural reason for his choice... he is an assassim pretty much due to a "promise" and he see his profession as something out of himself, in a certain sense imo is quite a strange crusader

i put Zaeed as neutral evil but he can go well with CN too, he is very individualist, i opted for NE for his propension to endanger and use innocents if that fits his schemes

Tali NG but can go with LG too, i prefer NG as she is very open minded and we all know that LG are a bit... narrow

Miranda is a bit problematic imo... she is lawfull but she doesnt seem to care for many people, also her association with the ebil cerberus is not a good thing... LE probably is a bit too much as she doesnt seem an evil char even if her morality is not exactly top notch

[wizardryforever]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Samara is NOT lawful good. She is lawful neutral - lives by a code, but is pretty ****ing evil if need be.

Where is she evil?  Everything she's done (that we know of) is lawful to a fault, yes.  But that code is, largely, good.  The only thing questionable about the code is that it requires that she fight her way out of police custody.  But since she's a justicar, and therefore would never do anything to break the law, she would have no legitimate reason to be in custody anyway unless the cops were dirty.  She's lawful good, emphasizing law over good.  She never does anything unjust (unless you abuse her oath to you) and never harms innocents, leaving law-breakers to escape to protect the innocent if need be.  Come on, her title is practically another name for lawful good!

[Nivenus]

The code requires you to kill innocents if they get in the way of pursuing a killer. That, to me, strikes me as lawful neutral and is also entirely against real-life law enforcement protocol. I don't think very many people would say Samara is lawful evil but I think lawful neutral fits her (and the justicars) pretty well, with a slight leaning towards lawful good.

[bthillman]

CG- Liara,
NG- Kaiden
LG- Tali

CN- Kasumi, Garrus, Mordin, Grunt
N-  Legion
LN- Samara, Ashley, Jacob, Miranda, Thane

CE- Jack
NE- Morinth
LE- Zaeed

Here's my thoughts for what their worth:

I had a particularly difficult time placing Wrex, which I decided to just omit.  Wrex's alignment tends towards so many things, that I orignally thought of a true neutral.  Samara strikes me as a Lawful Neutral.  I'm reminded of monks in the D&D sense of it.  Some see her as a lawful good, but I disagree.  She is obligated to kill any who her code tells her to.  To illustrate my point, if a paladin was incarcerated for killing an evil person, who he/she kill all those, who are only following orders, who locked them up?  Absolutely not.  As a DM, I would not allow it as a LG character (This action would force an alignment shift).  Also, my opnion of Ashley was a little out of the ordinary.  The only reason I put her as a Lawful Neutral is because of her blatant racism and tendency towards renegade type dialogue(N) and her ability to obey orders even if she disagrees (Such as working with aliens) (L).  A few will probably argue about this, but I am comfortable with her as a LN. Mordin was more of a CN for me. He did what he thought was best, but wasn't afraid to "do what is nessasary".

Most of the others usually go hand in hand with what others have and require no explaination.

Also... 4th ed. sucks.  3.5 ftw.   *Ducks* 

Modifié par bthillman, 12 mai 2010 - 12:52 .

[Pho Kadat]

Alright, we're doing this:
Pre-loyalty Alignments
LG "Crusader"- Samara (strays toward LN)
NG "Benefactor"- Jacob, Tali
CG "Rebel"- Garrus, Thane, Kasumi (strays toward CN)
LN "Judge"- Mordin, Legion
N "Undecided"- Miranda (strays for NG)
CN "Free Spirit"- Grunt (strays toward CE)
LE "Dominator"-
NE "Malefactor"- Morinth, Zaeed
CE "Destroyer"- Jack

Rationale:
I put Legion as LN as I believe that a machine race is strictly governed by their software, and thus adhere to order.
Science is Mordin's code, hence Lawful and he is just as likely to heal you as he is to shoot you, thus LN.
Although the title "Dominator" seems to fit Morinth, I don't know that she strictly adheres to any sort of code yet she is also not completely destructive.

Loyalty changes:
Miranda fully shifts to NG
Grunt becomes solidly CN, bordering on N.
Jack shifts to CN.

Modifié par Pho Kadat, 12 mai 2010 - 01:21 .

[wizardryforever]

Nivenus wrote...

The code requires you to kill innocents if they get in the way of pursuing a killer. That, to me, strikes me as lawful neutral and is also entirely against real-life law enforcement protocol. I don't think very many people would say Samara is lawful evil but I think lawful neutral fits her (and the justicars) pretty well, with a slight leaning towards lawful good.

When does she say that? (I really want to know)  If you are referring to the village that worshipped Morinth, they attacked her.  Once they attack you, it's pretty much a given that they aren't innocent anymore.  I can't think of anything else that she says that might be taken in that context.

[Onyx Jaguar]

WHen you first meet her she says she will "get out" of being held by the police. This implies force.