141 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

Sorry bro, it boils down to the fact that the weapons layout for each class is fine as is as a whole...While I DO agree with some of the ideas for the loadout systems, it doesnt mean that I think it SHOULD be changed. It's fine as it, and if no changes are made in ME3, I'd be just fine with it too

[Katya Nadanova]

CodyMelch wrote...

BristowJ wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

A soldier without an assault rifle, the only weapon unique to soldiers, would still play like a soldier IMO.

Yes and no.  Without the assault rifle, the solider doesn't have any weapons that have rapid fire.  They don't have the SMG.  Other classes can get the AR later in the game.  So its not entirely exclusive to soliders.

Neither is the Sniper Rifle, Shotgun or Pistol. So there you go. Besides they have more ammo powers and adrenaline rush, giv them the weapon layout of a vanguard and they will still be lethal >_>.

It's like your not listening or reading properly.  My point is that the solider is defined by having ALL the weapons.  They have the necessities to deal with ANY situation.  The other classes do as well.  The solider is also the only class that can choose between any of the upgraded versions of the AR , shotgun or sniper.

I have no idea why your pointing out the shotgun, sniper and pistol.  None of those are "exclusive" weapons to one class.  Like the AR is for the solider.

[Aradace]

BristowJ wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

BristowJ wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

A soldier without an assault rifle, the only weapon unique to soldiers, would still play like a soldier IMO.

Yes and no.  Without the assault rifle, the solider doesn't have any weapons that have rapid fire.  They don't have the SMG.  Other classes can get the AR later in the game.  So its not entirely exclusive to soliders.

Neither is the Sniper Rifle, Shotgun or Pistol. So there you go. Besides they have more ammo powers and adrenaline rush, giv them the weapon layout of a vanguard and they will still be lethal >_>.

It's like your not listening or reading properly.  My point is that the solider is defined by having ALL the weapons.  They have the necessities to deal with ANY situation.  The other classes do as well.  The solider is also the only class that can choose between any of the upgraded versions of the AR , shotgun or sniper.

I have no idea why your pointing out the shotgun, sniper and pistol.  None of those are "exclusive" weapons to one class.  Like the AR is for the solider.

Now before it's said...Yes, the AR is TECHNICALLY an "exclusive" weapon to Soldier because they are the only class with access to the Revenant on the Collector Ship which I believe may have been the intended meaning here....Otherwise, it's as Bristow said...You seem to not be listening.  and I will reiterate what was said...Soldier is defined BY THE FACT THAT IT CAN CARRY ALL WEAPONS.  Give the other classes access to all weapons and you take away the Soldier's PRIMARLY UNIQUE quality.

[Katya Nadanova]

Aradace wrote...

BristowJ wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

BristowJ wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

A soldier without an assault rifle, the only weapon unique to soldiers, would still play like a soldier IMO.

Yes and no.  Without the assault rifle, the solider doesn't have any weapons that have rapid fire.  They don't have the SMG.  Other classes can get the AR later in the game.  So its not entirely exclusive to soliders.

Neither is the Sniper Rifle, Shotgun or Pistol. So there you go. Besides they have more ammo powers and adrenaline rush, giv them the weapon layout of a vanguard and they will still be lethal >_>.

It's like your not listening or reading properly.  My point is that the solider is defined by having ALL the weapons.  They have the necessities to deal with ANY situation.  The other classes do as well.  The solider is also the only class that can choose between any of the upgraded versions of the AR , shotgun or sniper.

I have no idea why your pointing out the shotgun, sniper and pistol.  None of those are "exclusive" weapons to one class.  Like the AR is for the solider.

Now before it's said...Yes, the AR is TECHNICALLY an "exclusive" weapon to Soldier because they are the only class with access to the Revenant on the Collector Ship which I believe may have been the intended meaning here....Otherwise, it's as Bristow said...You seem to not be listening.  and I will reiterate what was said...Soldier is defined BY THE FACT THAT IT CAN CARRY ALL WEAPONS.  Give the other classes access to all weapons and you take away the Soldier's PRIMARLY UNIQUE quality.

Exactly!  Thank you!  At least your paying attetion.  I mean if you give the other classes access to all the weapons you might as well give other classes access to pull, throw, overload etc. etc.

[Tlazolteotl]

JaegerBane wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Err, just about every bioware game?

*scratches head*

Well, let's see...

Neverwinter Nights? Feats for anybody.

KOTOR? Feats for anybody (ok, lightsabers Jedi only... is that really an issue here?)

Dragon Age? If you had the strength, you could wield it. Or you could be an Arcane Warrior.

Quite clearly, not every Bioware game makes such an enforcement. Not by a long shot.

Buh? So you're saying, if you make the investment in a certain direction, you gain limited access to weapons?
Like ... say ... a certain collector ship?
I don't see any warriors using a staff in DA:O, do you?

[Kid_SixXx]

BristowJ wrote...
It's like your not listening or reading properly.  My point is that the solider is defined by having ALL the weapons.  They have the necessities to deal with ANY situation.  The other classes do as well.  The solider is also the only class that can choose between any of the upgraded versions of the AR , shotgun or sniper.

No one is listening to him or understanding his point.  He is trying to say that being armed with all weapons isn't what defines a soldier; it is (or at least it should be) weapon proficiency and damage output.

Having loadouts for all classes is fine and dandy so long as the Soldier class has the most uniform damage output with all firearms.  The other classes can specialize in the firearms of their choice and excel in damage with one or two particular firearms, but the Soldier should have a fairly comparable damge output with all firearms and should excel with the AR.

I personally prefer the loadouts as they are since classes that only have one or two weapon choices aren't forced to flip through a golf bag full of guns in order to use the firearm they are most proficient with.

Also, although difficulties might be higher, thermal clips still fall with some regularity.  Folks that complain about running out of ammo are either relying one one firearm too much or they aren't making the best use of squad powers in combat, IMO.  It's a brand new system, so you have to deal with the loss of infinite ammo.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 11 mai 2010 - 01:35 .

[Katya Nadanova]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

BristowJ wrote...
It's like your not listening or reading properly.  My point is that the solider is defined by having ALL the weapons.  They have the necessities to deal with ANY situation.  The other classes do as well.  The solider is also the only class that can choose between any of the upgraded versions of the AR , shotgun or sniper.

No one is listening to him or understanding his point.  He is trying to say that being armed with all weapons isn't what defines a soldier; it is (or at least it should be) weapon proficiency and damage output.

Having loadouts for all classes is fine and dandy so long as the Soldier class has the most uniform damage output with all firearms.  The other classes can specialize in the firearms of their choice and excel in damage with one or two particular firearms, but the Soldier should have a fairly comparable damge output with all firearms and should excel with the AR.

I personally prefer the loadouts as they are since classes that only have one or two weapon choices aren't forced to flip through a golf bag full of guns in order to use the firearm they are most proficient with.

Also, although difficulties might be higher, thermal clips still fall with some regularity.  Folks that complain about running out of ammo are either relying one one firearm too much or they aren't making the best use of squad powers in combat, IMO.  It's a brand new system, so you have to deal with the loss of infinite ammo.

If all the classes had all the weapons, the other classes would be overpowered to an alarming degree, regardless of weather or not they get passive talents that increase weapon damage, even more then the upgrades you get through the game already.

I diagree with the second paragraph, becuase it sounds ridiculous.

I like the weapons the specific classes have now as well.  There is no need for every class to have every weapon.

I agree with the thermal clips as well.  People who complain about not having enough are crazy.  There are more then enough everywhere.  I assume its becausee they do not use their talents properly during combat. 

[Kid_SixXx]

BristowJ wrote...

If all the classes had all the weapons, the other classes would be overpowered to an alarming degree, regardless of weather or not they get passive talents that increase weapon damage, even more then the upgrades you get through the game already.

Not if the Soldier's damage output with all guns on average exceeds the damage output of other classes.  Having an AR or a Shotgun gives other classes weapons of last resort when they run out of ammo with their "go to" guns.

That is the OP's line of logic, I think.

I diagree with the second paragraph, becuase it sounds ridiculous.

 
No, it doesn't sound ridiculous.  Having all guns available for use doesn't mean that they are going to be used uniformly by a player. 

Someone playing an Infiltrator is going to note that his class build is more germaine to sniper rifle use than AR use, so he is probably going to stick to using the SR. 

Access to the full arsenal gives our Infiltrator more "oh crap" options when he leans on the trigger of the SR too much or too often.

BristowJ wrote...

I agree with the thermal clips as well.  People who complain about not having enough are crazy.  There are more then enough everywhere.  I assume its becausee they do not use their talents properly during combat. 

Which is my argument against full loadouts for all characters.  The primary reason for people wanting full loadouts for classes other than Soldiers is "I run out of bullets too fast." 

If anyone is complaining about running out of ammo, then they are not taking the necessary opportunities to advance through a combat zone, gain ground, and gather thermal clips, they are relying too much on guns and need to use powers more often, or they aren't making their shots count with the guns at their disposal.

Their should be a downside or a check to playing another class and limiting loadouts works for class balance and really does eliminate wasted motion.  I hated the weapon system in ME1 for hybrid classes.  There really was no sense in arming my AdeptShep with an AR if he was going to suck at using one, but in-game you are an Alliance Marine and as Ashley said, "Every marine is a rifleman and every rifleman is zero-g certified."

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 11 mai 2010 - 02:45 .

[ShadowBurdus]

Having all the weapons at the soldier's disposal DOES make them unique and is defining feature of the class. To me, that's like saying the shotgun doesn't define the vangaurd or the sniper doesn't define the infiltrator. Despite popular belief, the soldier is not about spamming AR and then shooting every enemy in the room with just your assault rifle or the sniper. It's about using all your guns in the right situations to give you a huge advantage.

Take this scenario for example(which isn't the very uncommon): Varren charging you, about to take a nice chuck of flesh out of your ankle. Krogan mid range slowly making its way towards you. Two varcha are far away behind cover taking pot shots at you.

As a soldier one can easily shotgun the varren in the face, activate AR to burn the krogan down with their assault rifle and then switch to their sniper to take out the two Vorcha.

As an engineer I'm going to have use completely different tactics. Engineers suck at CQC so that Varren would be a huge issue. Using Drone on the Krogan (which only buys one about 2-5 seconds since they usually charge it, killing it instantly) one would have to then somehow have to burn through the armour of the varren and then use a squad mates ability to get it from destroying you before your cooldown is renewed.

There's a complete difference in gameplay. If the engineer had the same weapons, what's to stopping it from using the same tactic as the soldier only doing even better and more effectivly since they can use powers such as drone and incin to assist them. Sure, it might take an extra shotgun blast to kill the Varren and an extra sniper shot to kill the Vorcha, but is that really a huge deal? Me thinks not.

[Itkovian]

To answer the concern about shields protecting against biotics, keep in mind that it does make perfect sense.

A biotic attack is simply a manipulation of mass effect fields, and shields are basically mass effect fields, so it makes perfect sense that they interact (that a shield can stop a biotic effect). Sure, it is a different kind of dark energy manipulation, but the underlying source of shields and biotics is the same: mass effect.

Itkovian

[Kid_SixXx]

ShadowBurdus wrote...

It's about using all your guns in the right situations to give you a huge advantage.

The time dialation / damage bonus / damage resistance provided by the various flavors of Adrenaline Rush and an Ammo Power for nearly every occasion makes just about ANY situation the right one for an AR.

Taking time to mull over your armor piece choices makes things even easier since you can go with a balance of health / shield strength / shield regen / headshot damage to make the most of your AR shots and make sure your shields are active as the AR cooldown ends.

Having a lot of guns does indeed help define the solder class, but AR and Ammo Powers giving him the ability to be equally dangerous with whatever gun he uses is also important because it helps define the true Soldier calling, namely to be able to damage anything at anytime.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 11 mai 2010 - 03:31 .

[cruc1al]

In ME2, I do agree that having all weapons at your disposal, apart from the SMG, is one of the defining features of a soldier, but IMO the abilities are more important. And that's how it should be. Soldiers should be able to carry more guns and ammo than other classes, and they should be better at using those guns than other classes, thanks to their training. But that doesn't mean other classes shouldn't be able to fire an assault rifle, shotgun, sniper rifle. Carry, no. Use, yes; but not as well as the soldier. Also, soldiers should be able to use SMGs if they so wish, but they'd have to leave the heavy pistol, for example.

Modifié par cruc1al, 11 mai 2010 - 08:37 .

[Gravbh]

I may be alone here, but I always thought it was stupid that every character, no matter class, had every weapon on their back at all times in ME1. Why does Liara have a sniper rifle?

[Kid_SixXx]

Gravbh wrote...

I may be alone here, but I always thought it was stupid that every character, no matter class, had every weapon on their back at all times in ME1. Why does Liara have a sniper rifle?

You're not alone.  The old loadout system was clunky as was the loot system so that is why the new game has the new loadouts and upgrade system.

And I think the OP is arguing that the old loadout system be made available only to Shep and not the other characters since they never run out of thermal clips even though they reload at the same rate as Shep.

As for Liara using a sniper rifle, players arm her with a pistol since her "class" is close to the Adept and pistols are what Adepts use, but she doesn't have any weapon skills at all in her profile so it really doesn't matter what you arm her with. 

SR's do more damage than pistols so they aren't a bad choice for her in ME1.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 11 mai 2010 - 04:13 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Gravbh wrote...

I may be alone here, but I always thought it was stupid that every character, no matter class, had every weapon on their back at all times in ME1. Why does Liara have a sniper rifle?

You do realise Liara is better with a sniper rifle than she is with a pistol?
She has no training with any weapon, and SRs simply dish out more damage.

[NiftuCal]

i wish bioware would cut all restrictions. weapons, abilities, armors, love interests...... i dont know why we have classes like adept and engineer either. hows about ltting US create our shepard not some random developer who thinks throw warp and overload would be awesome for a sentinel. id like classes to be eliminated. maybe if we left the base classes as is, id like to be able to choose my biotics/techs with my class. take sentinel for example, two bio slots, two tech slots and one combat slot, and you pick which ever ability you want from each specialization.

we can customize everything from our looks to our story, but we cant customize what we physically want to do in the game.

do they ever explain why i HAVE to be a sentinel and nothing more nothing less?

Modifié par NiftuCal, 11 mai 2010 - 04:21 .

[Aradace]

NiftuCal wrote...

i wish bioware would cut all restrictions. weapons, abilities, armors, love interests...... i dont know why we have classes like adept and engineer either. hows about ltting US create our shepard not some random developer who thinks throw warp and overload would be awesome for a sentinel. id like classes to be eliminated. maybe if we left the base classes as is, id like to be able to choose my biotics/techs with my class. take sentinel for example, two bio slots, two tech slots and one combat slot, and you pick which ever ability you want from each specialization.

we can customize everything from our looks to our story, but we cant customize what we physically want to do in the game.

do they ever explain why i HAVE to be a sentinel and nothing more nothing less?

Hmmm...If you're uncomfortable with the restrictions, perhaps a game like Oblivion or Fallout 3 would be more to your liking?

[Cody]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

BristowJ wrote...

If all the classes had all the weapons, the other classes would be overpowered to an alarming degree, regardless of weather or not they get passive talents that increase weapon damage, even more then the upgrades you get through the game already.

Not if the Soldier's damage output with all guns on average exceeds the damage output of other classes.  Having an AR or a Shotgun gives other classes weapons of last resort when they run out of ammo with their "go to" guns.

That is the OP's line of logic, I think.

Yes it is thank you, I'm surprised that only a few people thought about what I posted before replying.

Their should be a downside or a check to playing another class and limiting loadouts works for class balance and really does eliminate wasted motion.  I hated the weapon system in ME1 for hybrid classes.  There really was no sense in arming my AdeptShep with an AR if he was going to suck at using one, but in-game you are an Alliance Marine and as Ashley said, "Every marine is a rifleman and every rifleman is zero-g certified."

I agree. Then it would still have it's restrictions while having realism to it.

The time dialation / damage bonus / damage resistance provided by the
various flavors of Adrenaline Rush and an Ammo Power for nearly every
occasion makes just about ANY situation the right one for an AR.

Taking
time to mull over your armor piece choices makes things even easier
since you can go with a balance of health / shield strength / shield
regen / headshot damage to make the most of your AR shots and make sure
your shields are active as the AR cooldown ends.

Having a lot of
guns does indeed help define the solder class, but AR and Ammo
Powers giving him the ability to be equally dangerous with whatever gun
he uses is also important because it helps define the true Soldier
calling, namely to be able to damage anything at anytime.

Which is also what I was trying to say. Powers are the main thing here.

In ME2, I do agree that weapon having all weapons at your disposal,
apart from the SMG, is one of the defining features of a soldier, but
IMO the abilities are more important. And that's how it should be.
Soldiers should be able to carry more guns and ammo than other classes,
and they should be better at using those guns than other classes, thanks
to their training. But that doesn't mean other classes shouldn't be
able to fire an assault rifle, shotgun, sniper rifle. Carry, no. Use,
yes; but not as well as the soldier. Also, soldiers should be able to
use SMGs if they so wish, but they'd have to leave the heavy pistol, for
example.

Would be a perfect system. It would grant more freedom to customizing our characters while still giving out limitations.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 11 mai 2010 - 08:09 .

[JaegerBane]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Err, just about every bioware game?

*scratches head*

Well, let's see...

Neverwinter Nights? Feats for anybody.

KOTOR? Feats for anybody (ok, lightsabers Jedi only... is that really an issue here?)

Dragon Age? If you had the strength, you could wield it. Or you could be an Arcane Warrior.

Quite clearly, not every Bioware game makes such an enforcement. Not by a long shot.

Buh? So you're saying, if you make the investment in a certain direction, you gain limited access to weapons?
Like ... say ... a certain collector ship?
I don't see any warriors using a staff in DA:O, do you?

Yeah, the amazing point in the game where Shepard finally decides to pick up something new apparently in response to the revelation about the Collectors. Like that part made lots of sense.

I'm going to assume that you have a point regarding the nitpicking about staffs. Like the lightsabres, there's a fairly good reason why non-mages don't wield staffs. There is no such situation in existence in ME2. No weapon can only be physically wielded by one class.

[JaegerBane]

NiftuCal wrote...

i wish bioware would cut all restrictions. weapons, abilities, armors, love interests...... i dont know why we have classes like adept and engineer either. hows about ltting US create our shepard not some random developer who thinks throw warp and overload would be awesome for a sentinel. id like classes to be eliminated. maybe if we left the base classes as is, id like to be able to choose my biotics/techs with my class. take sentinel for example, two bio slots, two tech slots and one combat slot, and you pick which ever ability you want from each specialization.

we can customize everything from our looks to our story, but we cant customize what we physically want to do in the game.

do they ever explain why i HAVE to be a sentinel and nothing more nothing less?

Hmmm. I would still like to see some kind of pattern to the classes... but I take your point on skill customisation. It's been by sheer chance so far that Bioware have put classes in both ME games that have a skillset I really like (Vanguard for ME1, Adept for ME2).

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

In ME2, I do agree that weapon having all weapons at your disposal, apart from the SMG, is one of the defining features of a soldier, but IMO the abilities are more important. And that's how it should be. Soldiers should be able to carry more guns and ammo than other classes, and they should be better at using those guns than other classes, thanks to their training. But that doesn't mean other classes shouldn't be able to fire an assault rifle, shotgun, sniper rifle. Carry, no. Use, yes; but not as well as the soldier. Also, soldiers should be able to use SMGs if they so wish, but they'd have to leave the heavy pistol, for example.

Agreed, for the most part. Personally I think Shep should have six weapon slots so the Soldier can wield everything.

[JaegerBane]

BristowJ wrote...

Exactly!  Thank you!  At least your paying attetion.  I mean if you give the other classes access to all the weapons you might as well give other classes access to pull, throw, overload etc. etc.

Why? Why are you comparing the soldier's weapons with powers? The Soldier has his own signature skill, just like all other classes. He has his own powers, just like all other classes. No-one is advocating moving them around. It's not even like the soldier has the ability to access all guns.

[thepiebaker]

hey cody check this out:wizard:
http://social.biowar...index/2277020/1

[Blackbaron15]

Honestly I do not see why my soldier is not allowed to use SMG'S it would be better if they let you replace the smg with the pistol!

[JaegerBane]

Blackbaron15 wrote...

Honestly I do not see why my soldier is not allowed to use SMG'S it would be better if they let you replace the smg with the pistol!

The wonders of coalesced.ini modding.