71 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

meh, Ill just wait until it's "re-released" as it were so that I dont have to buy anything that is unecessary

[OniGanon]

Naw, going by what I saw in some of Gatsby's vids concerning its ammo, and cruc1al's test vids to get some idea on relative performance. From what I've seen, I don't think I'm missing much.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
Mantis is excellent as a starter. You hit up AR or cloak, give a headshot to the low-level target in the most dangerous position, then switch if you're in assault rifle or CQC range. With the viper, taking the first kill takes longer, and you subject your squad to slightly more enemy fire (considering that in the beginning of the fight they're firing the most).

You aren't really making a fair comparison here, though. It's like saying the Avenger is better than the Vindicator because you can keep on firing without looking for ammo. If you throw in arbitrary situations selected to favour one gun over the other than you aren't really coming up with a valid conclusion.

What happens if I miss with that first shot thanks to a missile hit? What happens if there is more than one low-level target in a dangerous position? The Mantis is a completely different rifle to the Viper. The 'takes longer' will realistically equate to a fraction of second, and it will not impact your ammo supply anywhere near as severly on the viper to boot.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

cruc1al wrote...
Mantis is excellent as a starter. You hit up AR or cloak, give a headshot to the low-level target in the most dangerous position, then switch if you're in assault rifle or CQC range. With the viper, taking the first kill takes longer, and you subject your squad to slightly more enemy fire (considering that in the beginning of the fight they're firing the most).

You aren't really making a fair comparison here, though. It's like saying the Avenger is better than the Vindicator because you can keep on firing without looking for ammo. If you throw in arbitrary situations selected to favour one gun over the other than you aren't really coming up with a valid conclusion.

What happens if I miss with that first shot thanks to a missile hit? What happens if there is more than one low-level target in a dangerous position? The Mantis is a completely different rifle to the Viper. The 'takes longer' will realistically equate to a fraction of second, and it will not impact your ammo supply anywhere near as severly on the viper to boot.

No. Purely in terms of first blood, mantis > viper. If you miss the head with AR on, that's that then. I don't, usually.

To answer the bolded part: I never said there would be an enemy that threatened me. Let me rephrase it. You take out the enemy in the most vital position in terms of  your advance or their advance. Admittedly, with the Viper and its clip capacity, you can let yourself get into more dangerous positions than with the Mantis, but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper. Mantis requires you to use it as a specialist weapon; for fighting in close range dangerous situations, you use the Vindicator or shotgun.

The argument about ammo supply is moot, because I only compared the first kill speed. For mantis, that's one shot; hardly running out of ammo there, are we?

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

It's like saying the Avenger is better than the Vindicator because you can keep on firing without looking for ammo.

I fail to see the relevance of that analogy, because it's not in context. I didn't say Mantis is better than Viper. I said mantis kills the first person quicker than viper.

[SuperMedbh]

I've decided I like the Mantis better because it makes a really great "phoom!" sound, like a...like a great "phoom!" Fear me, oh mortals!

[sonsonthebia07]

SuperMedbh wrote...

I've decided I like the Mantis better because it makes a really great "phoom!" sound, like a...like a great "phoom!" Fear me, oh mortals!

Hmmm, "phoom" or "tsew tsew"...I'm at a great divide here. Why does it have to be so difficult?!

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
No. Purely in terms of first blood, mantis > viper. If you miss the head with AR on, that's that then. I don't, usually.

Purely in terms of first blood, yeah. But that is true of any weapon that trades rate of fire for raw damage. It's a purely arbitrary point. In terms of actually killing the opponent, it's 1 shot versus 3 - in the context of time taken and time spent out of cover, I don't understand why the fraction of a second longer for the Viper makes any real difference in light of the Mantis' substancial weaknesses.

To answer the bolded part: I never said there would be an enemy that threatened me. Let me rephrase it. You take out the enemy in the most vital position in terms of  your advance or their advance. Admittedly, with the Viper and its clip capacity, you can let yourself get into more dangerous positions than with the Mantis, but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper. Mantis requires you to use it as a specialist weapon; for fighting in close range dangerous situations, you use the Vindicator or shotgun.

Why would I need to be using it as my primary weapon? What is it about the Viper's larger clip, better ammo supply and ability to engage multiple targets that requires me to use it as a primary weapon to enjoy the benefits?

On an Adept particularly, the Viper doesn't just work well as a better softening-up tool, it works well as a defence stripper too. Far better than the Mantis. Especially when I laid down a singularity.

The argument about ammo supply is moot, because I only compared the first kill speed. For mantis, that's one shot; hardly running out of ammo there, are we?

The Mantis is a gun that expends 10% of the maximum ammo supply with every single shot. You can't realistically ignore the Mantis' ammo issues and expect to draw a meaningful conclusion. The only gun in the game that has a more restricted ammo supply is the Cain.

I think that's the issue I have with your point. This thread is comparing the two rifles and you're focusing totally on damage per shot, with no consideration to anything else.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

To answer the bolded part: I never said there would be an enemy that threatened me. Let me rephrase it. You take out the enemy in the most vital position in terms of  your advance or their advance. Admittedly, with the Viper and its clip capacity, you can let yourself get into more dangerous positions than with the Mantis, but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper. Mantis requires you to use it as a specialist weapon; for fighting in close range dangerous situations, you use the Vindicator or shotgun.

Why would I need to be using it as my primary weapon? What is it about the Viper's larger clip, better ammo supply and ability to engage multiple targets that requires me to use it as a primary weapon to enjoy the benefits?

What? When did I say you should?

The argument about ammo supply is moot, because I only compared the first kill speed. For mantis, that's one shot; hardly running out of ammo there, are we?

The Mantis is a gun that expends 10% of the maximum ammo supply with every single shot. You can't realistically ignore the Mantis' ammo issues and expect to draw a meaningful conclusion. The only gun in the game that has a more restricted ammo supply is the Cain.

I think that's the issue I have with your point. This thread is comparing the two rifles and you're focusing totally on damage per shot, with no consideration to anything else.

I'm not trying to draw a conclusion. I was talking purely from the perspective of killing the first opponent quickly in order to advance. Accept that instead of thinking I'm trying to argue Mantis is better than Viper. You're reading too much into it.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
What? When did I say you should?

'...but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper'...

I'm not trying to draw a conclusion. I was talking purely from the perspective of killing the first opponent quickly in order to advance. Accept that instead of thinking I'm trying to argue Mantis is better than Viper. You're reading too much into it.

Indeed, I assumed that your point was drawing directly from the thread title, I didn't read enough of the prior thread

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

cruc1al wrote...
What? When did I say you should?

'...but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper'...

Let me quote the whole thing for you.

Admittedly, with the Viper and its clip capacity, you can let yourself get into more dangerous positions than with the Mantis, but that would mean you use it as your primary weapon, not as your softening-up sniper.

Nowhere did I say that having the Viper means you should use it as your primary weapon. You can either use the Viper at long range, softening up targets or taking out single targets before advancing, or you can use it as your primary weapon, i.e. advance with it rather than switching to your primary weapon when you advance.

Modifié par cruc1al, 12 mai 2010 - 07:29 .

[MrNose]

Ha! I saw the thread title and new before looking that Cruc1al would be the last post.

[NiftuCal]

there shouldnt be an argument here. they are very differnt weapons. the only similarity is that they have a scope. if you like rapid fire hunting rifles take the viper. if you like getting meaningful headshots take the mantis. personally i think the viper sucks. the hand canon is better, its as simple as that.

[OniGanon]

Unless you like to use the Hand Cannon at point blank range, you're going to have a real hard time arguing the Carnifex is better than the Viper, since the Viper does similar damage per shot, with a much higher fire rate, double the shots per clip, and more than double the ammo capacity.


And Mantis only kills faster if it kills with one shot. On anything that can survive that one shot, the Viper will kill it faster.

Modifié par OniGanon, 13 mai 2010 - 04:12 .

[NiftuCal]

having the viper most likely means your not playing a soldier or infiltrator. those two classes take the widow and forget about the other two(or the rev). having the hand canon means i dont need a long ranged semi auto weapon. the hand canon can do everything the viper can do but it costs you a freebee weapon slot. on the other hand the mantis can do (somewhat) what only one other weapon can do, and thats the widow. personally i think the viper needs all that ammo because it sucks. the devs didnt give the viper all that ammo because it was a good and popwerfull weapon. its balancing between weapons means the viper needs all those bullets, becasue it sucks. the hand canon gets 16 shots, because its deadly.

[OniGanon]

I'm a bit confused with your reasoning. The Carnifex and Viper do very similar damage per shot. The Viper shoots much faster than the Carnifex, while doing similar damage per shot. The Viper sucks and needs more ammo because it sucks, and the Carnifex is forced to have crappy ammo reserves because it's deadly. That's what you're saying?



Look, if you just don't like the feel of the Viper or how it plays, just say so. You don't have to like it, it's not going to suit everyone's tastes. But don't try to argue that the weapon is anything less than deadly. In terms of DPS at range, the Viper is easily among the most powerful if not the most powerful non-heavy weapon in the game, period. Against anything that survives its first shot, even the Widow has a fight on its hands against the Viper.

[Athenau]

Loool@saying the hand cannon is a replacement for the viper.
BTW, I'm pretty sure the Viper has the highest dps in the game outside of something like claymore + reload trick.
The carnifex is terrible on a soldier. Everything that it does, your other weapons do better.

Modifié par Athenau, 13 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[JaegerBane]

NiftuCal wrote...

having the viper most likely means your not playing a soldier or infiltrator. those two classes take the widow and forget about the other two(or the rev). having the hand canon means i dont need a long ranged semi auto weapon. the hand canon can do everything the viper can do but it costs you a freebee weapon slot. on the other hand the mantis can do (somewhat) what only one other weapon can do, and thats the widow. personally i think the viper needs all that ammo because it sucks. the devs didnt give the viper all that ammo because it was a good and popwerfull weapon. its balancing between weapons means the viper needs all those bullets, becasue it sucks. the hand canon gets 16 shots, because its deadly.

I have to agree with OniGanon here - your logic doesn't make any sense. Considering that both weapons do *similar* amounts of damage, but one fires faster, with more ammo, less recoil and has a scope to assist with accuracy, I can't really understand why you'd think the weapon that fires more slowly with less ammo and no scope is superior. It's like saying 3 is greater than 6.

The sole advantage the Carnifex has is that you get it early and, assuming you're not a soldier, you don't need to use Collector Ship weapon slot on it. Gee whiz. We got a contender for the best weapon of all time here, ladies and gentlemen.

And why the hell would having a Viper mean most likely you're not playing a Soldier? You're just pulling stuff out of thin air there, buddy.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 13 mai 2010 - 03:45 .

[OniGanon]

Athenau wrote...
 Everything that it does, your other weapons do better.

It's much more useful to the Widow/Vindicator Soldier. Lets you extend your Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle ammo a little further. Also makes a nice anti-Husk weapon.

Modifié par OniGanon, 13 mai 2010 - 06:41 .

[Athenau]

It's much more useful to the Widow/Vindicator Soldier. Lets you extend your Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle ammo a little further. Also makes a nice anti-Husk weapon.

Well, saying that it's useful when you want to save ammo for your other weapons isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the carnixfex...

[cruc1al]

OniGanon wrote...

Athenau wrote...
 Everything that it does, your other weapons do better.

It's much more useful to the Widow/Vindicator Soldier. Lets you extend your Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle ammo a little further. Also makes a nice anti-Husk weapon.

With cryo ammo it freezes more reliably than any other weapon, bar sniper rifles. But sniper rifles can't be used at short range, so there you have it.

Modifié par cruc1al, 13 mai 2010 - 09:03 .