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[Sarah1281]

No snakes.

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No snakes.

Oh. Okay

[Chuvvy]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

David Gaider once said, that had he not died at Ostagar, Duncan more than likely would have done just that: decided Ferelden was a lost cause, Loghain and the civil war, and head towards Orlais and began preparing, along with Wardens from other lands, to attack the Blight once to spread beyond Ferelden. If Ferelden could not pull it's colelctive head out of it's ass and forget politics and vendettas long enough to unite and save it's own ass, then yes, it is likely he wopuld have written it off.

That would have been an intersting reunion fo Alistair.

[old book]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

The first Wardens dosen't care about fighting the Dark Spawn, according to  Riorden. That's what make me  think that the First Warden and the others in the Anderfels, knows a cure for the taint, and amoung other important things.  that they don't lower class Wardens to know .It's just a theory of mine.

That theory sounds likely. We get hints in The Calling (the novel) that there are secrets that even the highest ranking Wardens outside of the Anderfels don't know, and we know of at least one Warden freed of the need to go through the Calling again if not freed entirely of the Taint. We also meet Avernus, who has managed to last hundreds of years without giving in to the Calling. The Wardens in the Anderfels don't share any more information than they have to.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Although i respect Calin as a king he is a hot head if i hear glory from him one more time ill expload. He was a child , risked everything and countless human lives to make a failed attempt to make a mark in history like his father. I completely respect loghain for pulling out and saving his soldiers from slaughter. If duncan pulled out, i would of left with him without question. Calin had much support in the blight from orlais and the rest of the wardens but instead he acted like a child and did not wait for extra support. Duncan should of abandoned Calin. But then again if we had a smart king we wouldn't have DAO.

[Remy LeBeau]

old book wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

The first Wardens dosen't care about fighting the Dark Spawn, according to  Riorden. That's what make me  think that the First Warden and the others in the Anderfels, knows a cure for the taint, and amoung other important things.  that they don't lower class Wardens to know .It's just a theory of mine.

That theory sounds likely. We get hints in The Calling (the novel) that there are secrets that even the highest ranking Wardens outside of the Anderfels don't know, and we know of at least one Warden freed of the need to go through the Calling again if not freed entirely of the Taint. We also meet Avernus, who has managed to last hundreds of years without giving in to the Calling. The Wardens in the Anderfels don't share any more information than they have to.

I've been reading the calling. I'm not finish yet. But I know Bregan knows the location of the Old Gods. Shouldn't all Wardens know this information? After all we did give up lives to take in the taint. I don't no about you but ,when first joined the GW I was kind of pissed off , because when I asked Alistair things about the Grey Wardens  he didn't know as much as he should know.

[Remy LeBeau]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Although i respect Calin as a king he is a hot head if i hear glory from him one more time ill expload. He was a child , risked everything and countless human lives to make a failed attempt to make a mark in history like his father. I completely respect loghain for pulling out and saving his soldiers from slaughter. If duncan pulled out, i would of left with him without question. Calin had much support in the blight from orlais and the rest of the wardens but instead he acted like a child and did not wait for extra support. Duncan should of abandoned Calin. But then again if we had a smart king we wouldn't have DAO.

That's true if Cailan was smart, the story would have been over fast. I would had left right after that meeting with Cailan and Loghain. Do you think if Duncan would have told Loghain that the battle could not be won, Loghain would have listen to him?

[Sarah1281]

No. Loghain thinks Duncan and the other Wardens are Orlesian spies, remember? And that they would just be saying that to bring in the chevaliers.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 mai 2010 - 03:20 .

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No. Loghain thinks Duncn and the other Wardens are Orlesian spies, remember? And that they would just be saying that to bring in the chevaliers.

Thanks Sarah1281.I forgot about that. Duncan was damned if he do, and damned if he don't huh?

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

That depends im sure if duncan did tell loghain im sure he would of acted the same way cause from what i know he didn't decided to pull out till the last min but he didn't trust the wardens so he could of made an entire different decision save cailin and then have Duncan executed for suggesting deserting. Reason i think he'd do this is to try and expell the wardens back to orlais since he considers them spies.

[Raiil]

The First Warden, to me, seems... fishy.





With regards to Amaranthine, in my playthrough (mistress/chancellor to Alistair) she went to Amaranthine solely to spare Alistair trouble with the Wardens. I, personally, don't trust the First Warden as far as I can throw him. I agree that it seems like a set up for internal warring in the Wardens, and should that come to pass, I know my mage will be the first to sign up for the opposition against the First Warden.





There seems to be two viewpoints on what a Warden does, as according to the Calling: To end the Blight, or to protect people from the Blight (with the endgame being stopping it, obviously). I like Duncan a lot, but not all people- and I suspect, not all Wardens- are that pragmatic. Letting Ferelden fall is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. The dwarves, bless their stout little hearts, are a prime example of what happens if you don't, or in their case, can't shore up the strength needed to fight off a Blight immediately- their numbers are reduced, their civilisation slowly crumbling as thaig after thaig fell. Letting Ferelden burn only gives the darkspawn more fodder for ghouls and broodmothers and their numbers would grow immensely since there would be few able to head off their numbers, and not enough skilled soldiers to make a dent in their population.

[Remy LeBeau]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

That depends im sure if duncan did tell loghain im sure he would of acted the same way cause from what i know he didn't decided to pull out till the last min but he didn't trust the wardens so he could of made an entire different decision save cailin and then have Duncan executed for suggesting deserting. Reason i think he'd do this is to try and expell the wardens back to orlais since he considers them spies.

You're right. Loghain didn't even think it was a real blight, so he would have got the Wardens expelled.

[Remy LeBeau]

Valentia X wrote...

The First Warden, to me, seems... fishy.


With regards to Amaranthine, in my playthrough (mistress/chancellor to Alistair) she went to Amaranthine solely to spare Alistair trouble with the Wardens. I, personally, don't trust the First Warden as far as I can throw him. I agree that it seems like a set up for internal warring in the Wardens, and should that come to pass, I know my mage will be the first to sign up for the opposition against the First Warden.


There seems to be two viewpoints on what a Warden does, as according to the Calling: To end the Blight, or to protect people from the Blight (with the endgame being stopping it, obviously). I like Duncan a lot, but not all people- and I suspect, not all Wardens- are that pragmatic. Letting Ferelden fall is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. The dwarves, bless their stout little hearts, are a prime example of what happens if you don't, or in their case, can't shore up the strength needed to fight off a Blight immediately- their numbers are reduced, their civilisation slowly crumbling as thaig after thaig fell. Letting Ferelden burn only gives the darkspawn more fodder for ghouls and broodmothers and their numbers would grow immensely since there would be few able to head off their numbers, and not enough skilled soldiers to make a dent in their population.

The DS numbers would grow in numbers, but you have to remember stoping the  Ad is all the really mattered. After we kill the Ad the Ds becomes mindless.

[Sarah1281]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

That depends im sure if duncan did tell loghain im sure he would of acted the same way cause from what i know he didn't decided to pull out till the last min but he didn't trust the wardens so he could of made an entire different decision save cailin and then have Duncan executed for suggesting deserting. Reason i think he'd do this is to try and expell the wardens back to orlais since he considers them spies.

You're right. Loghain didn't even think it was a real blight, so he would have got the Wardens expelled.

He can't accept this as a Blight because if it is then Flemeth was right and if that's the case then he's already betrayed Maric and will betray him again.

Also, more darkspawn is never a good thing. They don't just disappear after the Blights. They go back down to bother the dwarves. And the more darkspawn there are the more that can start looking for he next Old God and the sooner the next Blight will be.

[Remy LeBeau]

My Pc didn't want to act as the arl of Amaranthine. He just wanted to take care of the DarkSpawn.

The Grey Wardens should never be into politics.

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

That depends im sure if duncan did tell loghain im sure he would of acted the same way cause from what i know he didn't decided to pull out till the last min but he didn't trust the wardens so he could of made an entire different decision save cailin and then have Duncan executed for suggesting deserting. Reason i think he'd do this is to try and expell the wardens back to orlais since he considers them spies.

You're right. Loghain didn't even think it was a real blight, so he would have got the Wardens expelled.

He can't accept this as a Blight because if it is then Flemeth was right and if that's the case then he's already betrayed Maric and will betray him again.

Also, more darkspawn is never a good thing. They don't just disappear after the Blights. They go back down to bother the dwarves. And the more darkspawn there are the more that can start looking for he next Old God and the sooner the next Blight will be.

You are right again. I just thought about somthing. You know if the Fereldans didn't want  the Wardens from Orlais. How come the Wardens from the Free Marches didn't come to help? According to Alistair there are Wardens in the Free Marches. It's just one of those things that make you say hmmm.

[Sarah1281]

Well, the Wardens from Orlais were likely more populous and Celene was the one who Cailan made an agreement with to send Wardens. If the leaders of the Free Marches didn't feel the need to try to send troops when the Orlesian ones were turned back and either weren't sure Loghain's paranoia was really directed just at the Orlesians or they simply didn't feel like indulging it then they might not see a need. It's not we have any evidence Loghain was reaching out to any non-Orlesians for aid against the Blight he didn't believe in and any GW that came to the country would either be turned away or arrested a la Riordan.

[Brako Shepard]

Did Duncan definitely die though? I know the intro shows a Darkspawn charge at him with an axe. But whats to say he didn't dodge out of the way?



He could have continued to fight until he had enough space to retreat. Also he could have seen Flemeth collect the other two wardens, and decided he would go meet them at a later date.



You can't actually get to the low ground where the battle took place, so there is no way of finding his body.

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, the Wardens from Orlais were likely more populous and Celene was the one who Cailan made an agreement with to send Wardens. If the leaders of the Free Marches didn't feel the need to try to send troops when the Orlesian ones were turned back and either weren't sure Loghain's paranoia was really directed just at the Orlesians or they simply didn't feel like indulging it then they might not see a need. It's not we have any evidence Loghain was reaching out to any non-Orlesians for aid against the Blight he didn't believe in and any GW that came to the country would either be turned away or arrested a la Riordan.

Yeah Loghain did think the Wardens was a Fairy tale. Sarah1281 you've read the Stolen throne. Was Flemeth referring to Loghain when she tells the PC " this blight threat is greater then you know'? Or somthing like that. I have not read the Stolen throne yet but I will later.

[Sarah1281]

Did Duncan definitely die though?

That depends. The devs have confirmed he's dead but there is no in-game proof. Don't you think if he were alive, though, he wouldn't just be off in obscurity somewhere when there's a Blight fo fight?

[Remy LeBeau]

Brako Shepard wrote...

Did Duncan definitely die though? I know the intro shows a Darkspawn charge at him with an axe. But whats to say he didn't dodge out of the way?

He could have continued to fight until he had enough space to retreat. Also he could have seen Flemeth collect the other two wardens, and decided he would go meet them at a later date.

You can't actually get to the low ground where the battle took place, so there is no way of finding his body.

I think David Gaider said Duncan really is dead.

[Sarah1281]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, the Wardens from Orlais were likely more populous and Celene was the one who Cailan made an agreement with to send Wardens. If the leaders of the Free Marches didn't feel the need to try to send troops when the Orlesian ones were turned back and either weren't sure Loghain's paranoia was really directed just at the Orlesians or they simply didn't feel like indulging it then they might not see a need. It's not we have any evidence Loghain was reaching out to any non-Orlesians for aid against the Blight he didn't believe in and any GW that came to the country would either be turned away or arrested a la Riordan.

Yeah Loghain did think the Wardens was a Fairy tale. Sarah1281 you've read the Stolen throne. Was Flemeth referring to Loghain when she tells the PC " this blight threat is greater then you know'? Or somthing like that. I have not read the Stolen throne yet but I will later.

Flemeth tells Maric that a Blight will occur shortly after his death and Loghain that he will betray Maric several times, each worse than the last and Loghain refuses to accept this. If this first thing she said was true and a few years after Maric died a Blight is happening, it stands to reasn the second part would be, too.

She could have meant a lot of things by 'tell them this Blight is greater than they realize.' I mean, at this point who really believes it's even a Blight? They don't expect the sheer numbers to overwhelm them at Ostagar, they don't expect Loghain's paranoia and refusal to accept reality on the matter of the Blight to nearly damn the country...they dont expect quite a bit.

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, the Wardens from Orlais were likely more populous and Celene was the one who Cailan made an agreement with to send Wardens. If the leaders of the Free Marches didn't feel the need to try to send troops when the Orlesian ones were turned back and either weren't sure Loghain's paranoia was really directed just at the Orlesians or they simply didn't feel like indulging it then they might not see a need. It's not we have any evidence Loghain was reaching out to any non-Orlesians for aid against the Blight he didn't believe in and any GW that came to the country would either be turned away or arrested a la Riordan.

Yeah Loghain did think the Wardens was a Fairy tale. Sarah1281 you've read the Stolen throne. Was Flemeth referring to Loghain when she tells the PC " this blight threat is greater then you know'? Or somthing like that. I have not read the Stolen throne yet but I will later.

Flemeth tells Maric that a Blight will occur shortly after his death and Loghain that he will betray Maric several times, each worse than the last and Loghain refuses to accept this. If this first thing she said was true and a few years after Maric died a Blight is happening, it stands to reasn the second part would be, too.

She could have meant a lot of things by 'tell them this Blight is greater than they realize.' I mean, at this point who really believes it's even a Blight? They don't expect the sheer numbers to overwhelm them at Ostagar, they don't expect Loghain's paranoia and refusal to accept reality on the matter of the Blight to nearly damn the country...they dont expect quite a bit.

It just make me think she knew about the Achitect and the Mother. Thinks for the answer. I will try to buy the The Stolen Throne a.s.a.p.

[Raiil]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The First Warden, to me, seems... fishy.


With regards to Amaranthine, in my playthrough (mistress/chancellor to Alistair) she went to Amaranthine solely to spare Alistair trouble with the Wardens. I, personally, don't trust the First Warden as far as I can throw him. I agree that it seems like a set up for internal warring in the Wardens, and should that come to pass, I know my mage will be the first to sign up for the opposition against the First Warden.


There seems to be two viewpoints on what a Warden does, as according to the Calling: To end the Blight, or to protect people from the Blight (with the endgame being stopping it, obviously). I like Duncan a lot, but not all people- and I suspect, not all Wardens- are that pragmatic. Letting Ferelden fall is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. The dwarves, bless their stout little hearts, are a prime example of what happens if you don't, or in their case, can't shore up the strength needed to fight off a Blight immediately- their numbers are reduced, their civilisation slowly crumbling as thaig after thaig fell. Letting Ferelden burn only gives the darkspawn more fodder for ghouls and broodmothers and their numbers would grow immensely since there would be few able to head off their numbers, and not enough skilled soldiers to make a dent in their population.

The DS numbers would grow in numbers, but you have to remember stoping the  Ad is all the really mattered. After we kill the Ad the Ds becomes mindless.

In a sense, that's why it's even a worse idea to abandon Ferelden.

Let's put it as an equation, keeping in mind that I am, of course, pulling the numbers out of the air.

Let's say there are around 2,000 Wardens in all of Thedas when the Blight starts off. Say maybe 150 of them are at Ostagar (since we know at least one came from the Anderfels, and Riordan was at Alistair's joining, there are some foreign Wardens on top of Ferelden's roughly 2 dozen), and we lose all but two, Alistair and our Warden. That leaves around 1,850.

For tactical reasons, you can't send out all the Wardens at once. They're scattered, it takes a while for orders to be sent, and it's imprudent to send out your entire force and leave the rest of Thedas undefended, since darkspawn can pop up everywhere. So say that half the remaining forces are sent out. That's 925 Wardens to defeat the Blight.

In the meanwhile, Ferelden has been overrun. Assume that Alistair and the Warden- the only two people in all of Thedas who have the ability to fight off the darkspawn in anything resembling an effective manner- are either a) dead or have been pulled by Duncan, had he survived. Ferelden has no way of knowing the proper way to really fight or track darkspawn. What you end up with is fractured battalions of bann's armies trying to hold off something they don't understand, so Ferelden is overrun in, say, a year, it takes roughly that long (at the least) for the Archdemon to appear.

In that timeframe, the darkspawn now have access to a population of over one million from which they can draw ghouls and broodmothers from. Say your average Warden has a shelf-life of 200 darkspawn before they bite it- this accounts from crap fighters at the low end, and amazing, PC-level Wardens on the other, who probably have a much higher body count. One broodmother can spawn thousands of darkspawn. On top of this, we're no longer dealing with a darkspawn army that is mindless and mainly comprised of genlocks. They have a much better chance of having a human or elven broodmother, thus enhancing the risk of a higher number of hurlocks and shrieks than is normal. If they can take 50 elven women and 100 human women as broodmothers, Ferelden will fall much, much faster, as the hurlocks and shrieks will pop up even faster. And should the dwarves be taken from both sides, then the genlock population increases as well. The number of darkspawn that come out will completely overwhelm the amount of Wardens avaliable to fight, and because nothing was done to stop the production of broodmothers, it will be that much more difficult to enter Ferelden and shut off that spigot, so to speak. Production ramps up as our numbers whittle down. 

Tactically, you don't want to take your Wardens and have them sit at the border, waiting for an ungodly horde that has had a year to build up resources and is now organised to come and throw them at you. You need to constantly whittle their numbers down and prevent them from overrunning the surface, or it turns into Orzammar 2.0- now with 250% moar genocide. Knocking the Blight out in Ferelden is the fastest way to ensure that when the AD shows itself, your forces aren't going to be overwhelmed when the dirty thing shows up and end up dying before you can kill it.

[Remy LeBeau]

Valentia X wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The First Warden, to me, seems... fishy.


With regards to Amaranthine, in my playthrough (mistress/chancellor to Alistair) she went to Amaranthine solely to spare Alistair trouble with the Wardens. I, personally, don't trust the First Warden as far as I can throw him. I agree that it seems like a set up for internal warring in the Wardens, and should that come to pass, I know my mage will be the first to sign up for the opposition against the First Warden.


There seems to be two viewpoints on what a Warden does, as according to the Calling: To end the Blight, or to protect people from the Blight (with the endgame being stopping it, obviously). I like Duncan a lot, but not all people- and I suspect, not all Wardens- are that pragmatic. Letting Ferelden fall is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. The dwarves, bless their stout little hearts, are a prime example of what happens if you don't, or in their case, can't shore up the strength needed to fight off a Blight immediately- their numbers are reduced, their civilisation slowly crumbling as thaig after thaig fell. Letting Ferelden burn only gives the darkspawn more fodder for ghouls and broodmothers and their numbers would grow immensely since there would be few able to head off their numbers, and not enough skilled soldiers to make a dent in their population.

The DS numbers would grow in numbers, but you have to remember stoping the  Ad is all the really mattered. After we kill the Ad the Ds becomes mindless.

In a sense, that's why it's even a worse idea to abandon Ferelden.

Let's put it as an equation, keeping in mind that I am, of course, pulling the numbers out of the air.

Let's say there are around 2,000 Wardens in all of Thedas when the Blight starts off. Say maybe 150 of them are at Ostagar (since we know at least one came from the Anderfels, and Riordan was at Alistair's joining, there are some foreign Wardens on top of Ferelden's roughly 2 dozen), and we lose all but two, Alistair and our Warden. That leaves around 1,850.

For tactical reasons, you can't send out all the Wardens at once. They're scattered, it takes a while for orders to be sent, and it's imprudent to send out your entire force and leave the rest of Thedas undefended, since darkspawn can pop up everywhere. So say that half the remaining forces are sent out. That's 925 Wardens to defeat the Blight.

In the meanwhile, Ferelden has been overrun. Assume that Alistair and the Warden- the only two people in all of Thedas who have the ability to fight off the darkspawn in anything resembling an effective manner- are either a) dead or have been pulled by Duncan, had he survived. Ferelden has no way of knowing the proper way to really fight or track darkspawn. What you end up with is fractured battalions of bann's armies trying to hold off something they don't understand, so Ferelden is overrun in, say, a year, it takes roughly that long (at the least) for the Archdemon to appear.

In that timeframe, the darkspawn now have access to a population of over one million from which they can draw ghouls and broodmothers from. Say your average Warden has a shelf-life of 200 darkspawn before they bite it- this accounts from crap fighters at the low end, and amazing, PC-level Wardens on the other, who probably have a much higher body count. One broodmother can spawn thousands of darkspawn. On top of this, we're no longer dealing with a darkspawn army that is mindless and mainly comprised of genlocks. They have a much better chance of having a human or elven broodmother, thus enhancing the risk of a higher number of hurlocks and shrieks than is normal. If they can take 50 elven women and 100 human women as broodmothers, Ferelden will fall much, much faster, as the hurlocks and shrieks will pop up even faster. And should the dwarves be taken from both sides, then the genlock population increases as well. The number of darkspawn that come out will completely overwhelm the amount of Wardens avaliable to fight, and because nothing was done to stop the production of broodmothers, it will be that much more difficult to enter Ferelden and shut off that spigot, so to speak. Production ramps up as our numbers whittle down. 

Tactically, you don't want to take your Wardens and have them sit at the border, waiting for an ungodly horde that has had a year to build up resources and is now organised to come and throw them at you. You need to constantly whittle their numbers down and prevent them from overrunning the surface, or it turns into Orzammar 2.0- now with 250% moar genocide. Knocking the Blight out in Ferelden is the fastest way to ensure that when the AD shows itself, your forces aren't going to be overwhelmed when the dirty thing shows up and end up dying before you can kill it.

I was not talking about abandoning Ferelden just for the hell of it. I know that will be a bad plan. I was talking about abandoning it , because  nobody was listening to Duncan's advice. They thought he was guessing about the Archdemon being behind the blight. As a matter of fact they didn't even believe it was a blight. Duncan knew that the Grey Wardens,and Cailan and Loghain's troops was going to be out numbered. From a convo option we get after thet meeting with Cailan and Loghain. We get the feeling that Duncan didn't really believe in Loghain's battle plan. And he was right for it. It was a big disaster. He was killed, and the Pc and, Alistair would have been killed if it was not for Flemeth.

 The point of my arguement is, he should had left Ostager. Not out of malice, but for him and the Grey Wardens to live and fight another day. After that, he could had took the Wardens to Orzammer, and asked for aid form the Legion of the dead. At that time I don't think King Endrin would have been dead, so it would be a great plan. Because it was a blight it would not have been the many Dark Spawn in the deep roads so it would have been easy to track the Archdemon and kill it. Now keep in mind, we know the Archdemon is still in the Deep roads from the cut scene, when we happen to get real close to it, and it didn't notice the Pc. Now in my opinion, this would have been a good plan B.

Modifié par Remy LeBeau, 11 mai 2010 - 07:54 .