133 réponses à ce sujet

[Cascadus]

slimgrin wrote...

Why should publishers make a profit on used game sales? They just made $60 with each initial purchase, and more with dlc. That not enough? They no longer own the hard copy - that should be the owners right to do with as he wishes.  And forget Gamestop, what about Amazon and E-bay? Many go there to buy used games.
And I have to ask. You work for EA?

I am always amazed at the blind support big companies like EA and Microsoft get on this site. Never seen anything like it. But then, they're so darn fair right? Always have the consumor's best interest in heart. Such angels, they are. :innocent:

I love how you accuse me of 'blind support'. I'm not saying that EA are angels, and I've got plenty of experience getting shafted by mega-publishers that I know they're only interest is in arbitary numbers on a chart, but what I am saying is that all they're doing is protecting their corporate interests in as much of an uninvasive method as possible (although that's less from the goodness of their hearts and more from how spectacularly their draconian DRM efforts failed). What would you prefer they do? Nothing, I presume, but that's not an option from a corporate perspective, EA's not going to let such a large amount of profit from their product go away, and 'Project Ten Dollar' is a lot better alternative considering the other asspulls they could honk on us. You forget that EA is ultimately a business, a faceless conglomerate of suits and they've gotta pull a profit. They've had significant losses over the last years and in the console market, a lot of it is due to the prevalance of used games.

It's pretty brilliant, actually. A small margin of consumers will ever bother selling their games through channels such as Amazon, Craigslist or eBay and go through all the trouble, as opposed to the incredible convenience of handing their games over to GameStop and GameStop is known for selling their product at prices just a small fraction lower of the cost. With an asking price of 10 extra dollars to open up the multiplayer component, they make the used copy more expensive than the retail copy. Devious, but smart and pretty passive.

Again, it's like CD Keys. People who buy PC games for 30 bucks on eBay get the game for cheaper, but at the price of an exclusion of the multiplayer component. The difference is that EA got the bright idea of implementing this in a console environment with an asking price to open up the feature to those who bought a used game and thus recoup some of the losses made by the used game sale.

I stand by my statement. Used game sales are becoming as large of an issue as piracy at this point, and I see no reason why EA shouldn't try to combat it somehow.

Modifié par Cascadus, 12 mai 2010 - 05:04 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

From a business perspective on paper it does indeed look fairly genious

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 12 mai 2010 - 05:05 .

[AlanC9]

Don't be silly. PC games are going to work the same way too.

[Cascadus]

Too bad we PC gamers are already being shafted with ridiculously draconian DRM methods because of the 'wars' on piracy. <_<

Modifié par Cascadus, 12 mai 2010 - 05:48 .

[WilliamShatner]

It breaks my heart that my once favourite game developer is now alligned with [Electronic Arts].



[inappropriate bashing edited]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 12 mai 2010 - 10:27 .

[Darth Drago]

To me it sounds like EA is just trying to monopolize the gaming industry again. They did it before by buying out the licenses for sports organization to prevent a rival companies to make games. They probably found out that they couldn’t buyout GameStop due to a conflict of interests. Or they just want to get more money out of gamers.

You don’t hear movie, book, music or even car companies crying about loosing money to the used market industry because someone bought a used one and they didn’t get the cash for the sale. Why should the gaming industry? Think about it the next time you buy anything pre-owned.

Want that used car? Sure thing as soon as you pay the manufacturer 10% of what the sticker price is so they can mail you the keys. Want to see the last 15 minutes of that used dvd? Sorry but until you send us some money your out of luck pal. Its exactly the same principle.

EA got their money from those that purchased the game new and now they are trying to get more because someone buys it used. They need that code to get online stuff and features with to. To bad the Project $10 will cost $15 for the Mass Effect 2 used game buyer. Oh yea it comes with an expiration date of Jan 1, 2012. So much for anyone who is new to the Mass Effect games that may want to get ME2 when they get ME3.

You people (the general gaming community) are the problem that this is going on in the first place. There wouldn’t be a massive used game market on newer games if you didn’t buy a new game then sell it to places like GameStop after owning it for a week. Where do you think they get all of these new used games, the used game fairy? You do the stupid thing and trade in new games for the “new hit of the week” even knowing that the value of those games is much more than the value of the one your getting.

“You‘ll give me $15 for these 3 games I bought in the last month? Sweet deal! Now I only need $45 to get the new game I want!” To bad you just lost $165 (based on the 3 games costing $60 each) in that deal. I guess renting a game is not hip enough around your friends these days?

Maybe if EA didn’t buyout rival companies or maybe actually made more quality games worth keeping they wouldn’t be in a financial problem.

Of course used game stores like GameStop are not businesses of their own and have no right to make money right? (regardless if you like them or hate them)

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/gamestop-used-ea-socom-dlc,news-5914.html 

http://www.geardiary.com/2010/02/11/eas-project-10-to-squeeze-used-game-buyers/

Modifié par Darth Drago, 12 mai 2010 - 07:39 .

[Loerwyn]

slimgrin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Don't be silly. PC games are going to work the same way too.

They don't at present. Pc gamers have more options.

Cerberus Network?
Stone Prisoner?
Battlefield 2: Bad Company DLC?

EA are already hard at work with it on the PC too, but I see it as PC gamers profiting, because outside of fleabay and other trading sites, we have very few options in regards to trading in/selling on games - especially newer ones with more restrictive DRM. So we get DLC/extra content for free. Yayyyyyyyy.

[Cascadus]

Darth Drago wrote...

To me it sounds like EA is just trying to monopolize the gaming industry again. They did it before by buying out the licenses for sports organization to prevent a rival companies to make games. They probably found out that they couldn’t buyout GameStop due to a conflict of interests.

Do people even know what 'monopolize' means? It gets thrown around way too much. They aren't eating up every company they see. They haven't bought a company up in... quite a while, to be honest. And trying to protect their business interests does not =/= a monopoly. Maybe if EA and Activision merged, bought up all the signficant competition and suppressed any other companies, it would be a monopoly, but it isn't.

Or they just want to get more money out of gamers.

No way. They, as a company, want to make money? Prepostorous.

You don’t hear movie, book, music or even car companies crying about loosing money to the used market industry because someone bought a used one and they didn’t get the cash for the sale. Why should the gaming industry? Think about it the next time you buy anything pre-owned.

I wouldn't have a clue why you'd bring up movie and music industries, considering used sales hardly affect them at all, especially when they're facing down a much larger problem right about now. You know... piracy? And regardless, there's far more prevalance of the 'trade in' business model of GameStop than in any other industry, especially things like cars and books.

Want that used car? Sure thing as soon as you pay the manufacturer 10% of what the sticker price is so they can mail you the keys. Want to see the last 15 minutes of that used dvd? Sorry but until you send us some money your out of luck pal. Its exactly the same principle.

No... no, it isn't. EA works on this, you have the same basic game, but with what they consider 'premium content' (such as multiplayer) and used gamers are expected to pay for it. It's not the best system, but it's a huge incentive to buy new.

EA got their money from those that purchased the game new and now they are trying to get more because someone buys it used. They need that code to get online stuff and features with to. To bad the Project $10 will cost $15 for the Mass Effect 2 used game buyer. Oh yea it comes with an expiration date of Jan 1, 2012. So much for anyone who is new to the Mass Effect games that may want to get ME2 when they get ME3.

Source? Nothing in the articles you linked had a thing to say about this.

You people (the general gaming community) are the problem that this is going on in the first place. There wouldn’t be a massive used game market on newer games if you didn’t buy a new game then sell it to places like GameStop after owning it for a week. Where do you think they get all of these new used games, the used game fairy? You do the stupid thing and trade in new games for the “new hit of the week” even knowing that the value of those games is much more than the value of the one your getting.

Can't argue with this.

“You‘ll give me $15 for these 3 games I bought in the last month? Sweet deal! Now I only need $45 to get the new game I want!” To bad you just lost $165 (based on the 3 games costing $60 each) in that deal. I guess renting a game is not hip enough around your friends these days?

This sounds about right too.

Maybe if EA didn’t buyout rival companies or maybe actually made more quality games worth keeping they wouldn’t be in a financial problem.

Terrible, awful games and OBVIOUS milking like all them silly new IPs and fianancial risks EA has taken such as Dead Space, Brutal Legend and Mirror's Edge. EA hasn't lost profits due to overmilked, cash-cow franchises with no inspiration in them, they lost money for exactly the opposite reason. This is opposed to Activision, who has exploited and milked out the same tired old games constantly, namely, the Guitar Hero (when there are FIVE GAMES IN FOUR YEARS, excluding spin-off titles such ad Band Hero, DJ Hero, and the 'mobile' versions, meaning that Guitar Hero is being milked even beyond a point of franchises such as NFL and FIFA there is something seriously wrong here) and Call of Duty IPs to a breaking point and it's stocks have never been higher. Then fires it's employees when they wonder whatever happened to the royalties promised by Activision. And then in the press, make it blatantly clear they care little about the gamer at all. Not even the common courtesies and basic respect that at the very least EA has given us. EA may still be evil, but they're sure as hell less blatant about it than good old Activision.

Of course used game stores like GameStop are not businesses of their own and have no right to make money right? (regardless if you like them or hate them)

No one said that, but by the use of your own argument, they're a big multinational company. They can afford to lose a few sales, can't they? Besides, they will still be sold through retailers like them, so it's not like they'll have a huge deficit of money lost. It just means their used game scheme will be marginally less effective.

Modifié par Cascadus, 12 mai 2010 - 01:50 .

[rage9345]

Eh, it doesn't bother me too much.... I use Gamefly to rent new games, and if I like them I buy them with all the discounts i get from having a membership for so long. Apparently they give you the card that has the EA code when they ship the game box to you.... wish I had known that before shelling out $15 for the Bad Company 2 VIP code on xbox live, but even after that I still only paid $45 for a $60 game, and now I've got a spare VIP code... not sure what to do with that...

[Relix28]

Well, this doesn't affect me, because I always buy my games new anyway.

But I do however disagree with the principle of this policy. It's basically just corporate greed. But then again, that's how most of the industry work's today. Sadly, it's more profit for the soulless suits that couldn't care less about the gamer. And imagine what could happen if this deems successful. Every other company could eventually follow suit and potentially introduce even more fascist models.

I really don't like where this is going, and I sincerely hope this model backfires on them hard, so they can think twice before trying to pull out more crap like this.

[Darth Drago]

Cascadus wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...
EA got their money from those that purchased the game new and now they are trying to get more because someone buys it used. They need that code to get online stuff and features with to. To bad the Project $10 will cost $15 for the Mass Effect 2 used game buyer. Oh yea it comes with an expiration date of Jan 1, 2012. So much for anyone who is new to the Mass Effect games that may want to get ME2 when they get ME3.

Source? Nothing in the articles you linked had a thing to say about this.

-Since I’m short on time today I’ll just answer this part. Look at the Cerberus Network card. The expiration date is just to the left of the code. A coincidence that it expires about the same time that ME3 will possibly be out?  The price for the Cerberus Network is 1200 Microsoft Points ($15) on X-Box Live.

It makes me wonder if the EA sports titles they release every year will have a 1 year expiration date for their code or use a 2 year one. EA already charges you $10 to play online with your franchise team with friends for their Madden 10 game this was before their so called Project $10 started.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 12 mai 2010 - 04:31 .

[MerinTB]

Blk_Mage_Ctypewrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Digital is the way of the future. And, IMO, that's a very good thing. You are being so ripped of by purchasing CDs, DVDs, etc.
Digital prices are still too high, IMO, but that will most likely change soon.
You can pine for your LPs and leaded gasoline and vaudville shows and horse buggies all you want.

Wow, can't get much more ignorant that that...

Which part is the ignorant part? 
- That digital is the way EVERYTHING is going?  HDTV?  Music?  Movies?  Books?  And, yes, games?  That's not ignorance - that's acknowledging what is obviously and clearly happening.
- That digital prices are too high in my opinion?  I suppose opinions can be based on ignorance (*ahem*) but I'm judging that bandwith and server costs are no where near the expenses of printing, packaging, shipping, shelf-space, and every other expense that goes into brick n' mortar retail sales
- That LPs, leaded gasoline, vaudville shows and horse buggies are all things of the past that have been replaced with newer, better things?  You can still find some of that, sure, but not as much as CDs (or their replacement, MP3's) or unleaded gas or tv shows and movie theaters or cars and motorcyles.

I'm failing to see the ignorance in my statement.  Oh, wait, right - that was an ad hominem attack.  Silly me to take you at face value.

For you information, PS3 is available with up to a 260GB HDD, and furthermore, since PS3 uses a 2.5 SATA Laptop HDD, you can upgrade it as much as you want. I myself upgraded mine with a 320GB
Western Digital 2.5 SATA HDD.

Ok.  And... this has WHAT to do with the statement you quoted from me?  Is this is reference to a LATER post about the XBOX being the first with a HDD?  Well, it was.  The PS2 didn't get a HD until FF XI, which was well after the XBOX was on the market.  Nintendo still doesn't have a HDD last I checked (512 MB of Flash Memory really doesn't count IMO.)

If you like DD then that's fine, but  don't act so damn smug about it and devalue that options of others.

Smug?  I don't remember calling you a name like ignorant.  I think it is apt to compare people who hold onto old methods / technology in the face of newer, better methods / technology replacing the old.  Whether that's horse buggies and cars or brick 'n mortar sales and digital distribution.  It's not really intended as an insult, but take it for what you will I guess.

I prefer Physical Distribution, and frankly, even if Physical Media cost up to $20 more than a Digital Copy, I'd still buy the physical copy over the digital one.

Bully for you.  And there are still people who prefer to buy their music on LPs.  More power to them (and you.)  You go with your freedom of choice!

The only games I even own digital versions of are old SNES games on the Wii's Virtual Console that are either incredibly rare or expensive in physical form, and PSone games off PSN that I don't already own on disc that are incredably rare or expensive in physical form.

Why is this all about you?

And as I've already covered, HVD's can hold up to 6TB of  data, (greater than any current harddrive) and will be cheaper than a new HDD.

Again, I don't even know why you are referencing this.  What does it have to do with my "ignorant" post that you quoted?

If Bioware really has a space issue on DVDs that is hampering Mass Effect then they should move the series to PS3 immediately.

At this point I have to assum that, even though you quoted me and then made all these statements, you aren't really addressing me.  I don't remember saying word one about space issues on DVD being an issue for BioWare.

If you quote me, why not try sticking to responding to me?  K?  Thanks.

Modifié par MerinTB, 12 mai 2010 - 07:17 .

[MerinTB]

Ryzaki wrote...
That is so weird.  I can't quote Merin's Post. D:

Alas!

It is weird - I had to cut and paste to respond to Blk_Mage_Ctype

Anyways Blk said it better than I could.

No, please, I respect you Ryzaki, even if we disagree on some things now and again.  And I bet that drunk you could make a far more coherent response to me.

DD is not so unavoidable as you may think it is.

It is here.  What's to avoid?  We are only going to become more digitally connected, not less, in the future.  Bandwidth allocation will increase.  Speed will increase.  Storage and computing power will increase.  These are basically givens.

CD sales are dropping.  DVD sales are dropping, and not being replaced by Blu-Ray at the same rate.  Land line usage is dropping.  Print newspapers are dying.  Book sales are dropping. Brick 'n mortar stores are failing.  Heck, the really poor rental industry is facing huge hits with the success of streaming services like Netflix and Hulu.

Digital is here.  The tv signals are all digital now.

How do you think the genie will be placed back in the bottle?

All we are waiting on is an increase in bandwidth, an upgrade to our network connections if you will.  Once it becomes quicker to download a movie than to drive to your local retail store to pick it up and drive back home, it's a done-deal.

The price problems - with physical copies and digital copies costing too close to the same amount - will work itself out as the digital market grows.  Or should.  I shouldn't underestimate corporate interests trying to pocket all the savings of digital distribution.

Things change, even in the computer gaming industry.  You used to get games on floppy disks and computers had no HDD.  Console games came on catridges.    I remember people not wanting to waste their small HDD space with installing games when the first HDD's came out and game-size grew.  I remember Nintendo fighting against CD based games all the way to the Gamecube and finally losing that fight.

I'm curious as to what criteria or evidence you have that digital distribution WON'T take over brick 'n mortar sales?  Are you a console gamer and therefore you've not noticed that PC games have all but disappeared from store shelves?  That ain't because PC gamers don't buy games anymore.

[Daerog]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't think the physical format will ever completely vanish, and if it does, not for at least a decade. But I do hope within the next 5 years we see a major improvement in gaming tech that allows the player the choice of their format, be it digital or physical, across all consoles (pcs are already almost there)

What I don't like about digital copies is that they tend to be the same price as the game at a retailer. So, you get less for the same price. Now in the future, if they wish to focus mainly on digital distribution and want to eventually phase out physical copies (so I assume it'll be cheaper for them to not make all those plastic cases) then they should lower the price on digital copies.
Buying digitally does sound nice, but not when it's the same price for the physical copy. Although, I think I'll still buy the physical copy even if the digital is cheaper...

[Trefalen]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
What I don't like about digital copies is that they tend to be the same price as the game at a retailer. So, you get less for the same price. Now in the future, if they wish to focus mainly on digital distribution and want to eventually phase out physical copies (so I assume it'll be cheaper for them to not make all those plastic cases) then they should lower the price on digital copies.
Buying digitally does sound nice, but not when it's the same price for the physical copy. Although, I think I'll still buy the physical copy even if the digital is cheaper...

Nope, EA/BW  will keep the prices the same and make more money. EA is all about the benjamins.

Modifié par Trefalen, 12 mai 2010 - 09:51 .

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...
All we are waiting on is an increase in bandwidth, an upgrade to our network connections if you will.  Once it becomes quicker to download a movie than to drive to your local retail store to pick it up and drive back home, it's a done-deal.

If you just stream it most of us are there right now

The price problems - with physical copies and digital copies costing too close to the same amount - will work itself out as the digital market grows.  Or should.  I shouldn't underestimate corporate interests trying to pocket all the savings of digital distribution.

I don't think corporations are trying to earn more profit from digital versions so much as they're trying to keep the hardcopy business from failing. It won't take much to put, say, hardcover books into a death-spiral. (Print-on-demand excepted; I don't know the cost per copy there.)

An awful lot of people are going to be really screwed when digital takes over, and I'm not too unhappy about corporations preserving their interests for a little longer.

[AlanC9]

Digital won't make things much cheaper anyway. I don't think the cost of physical production is much more than about $3 a game.

[MerinTB]

AlanC9 wrote...

The price problems - with physical copies and digital copies costing too close to the same amount - will work itself out as the digital market grows.  Or should.  I shouldn't underestimate corporate interests trying to pocket all the savings of digital distribution.

I don't think corporations are trying to earn more profit from digital versions so much as they're trying to keep the hardcopy business from failing. It won't take much to put, say, hardcover books into a death-spiral. (Print-on-demand excepted; I don't know the cost per copy there.)

An awful lot of people are going to be really screwed when digital takes over, and I'm not too unhappy about corporations preserving their interests for a little longer.

This isn't entirely true, though.  More and more creators are finding they can earn more and have more control over what they make by skipping the middle man and taking their products directly to consumers.

With video games (and big budget action films) this isn't necessarily an easy thing, as the days of one or a few guys programming a game are long gone, but for music and books this is a boon for many.  It isn't there YET, but many artists who'd never get picked up by a label or authors who'd never get noticed by a publisher are eeking out a living via online sales.  Web comic creators.  Without an agent to pay, a producing company to get its cut, creators get a bigger share of the sales and more say over what they make.  Sure, the number of sales will almost always be smaller than the sales a big firm could wrangle up with advertising and such, but for all but the bigger name people it mostly balances out.

Or it will.

This is how I see things.  I'm not the only one.

While this strays from the topic on hand greatly (EA's plans to "combat" used sales) this is a subject that I've spent a lot of time reading about, writing about, thinking about.  I won't claim to be an expert, or that I'm absolutely right and those who disagree with me are absolutely wrong, but I do feel that I know a thing or two of which I speak.

There is a paradigm shift happening, and with the internet it's happening in such a way that the established industries can't control it like they used to.  Could they regain control?  Not completely, not ever again, I don't think.  BUT they can take back much if they defeat net neutrality, allow service providers to filter or choose content, and so on...
but since the internet is a world-wide network, it would take a coalition of countries agreeing to the same standards or certain countries isolating their citizens from accessing the offerings of other countries.  And I don't see either of those happening.

---

To be clear, sales of goods at brick 'n mortar stores will most likely not disappear anytime soon.  But they will be fully eclipses, especially in products where the actual thing being bought can be delivered digitally.

[MerinTB]

AlanC9 wrote...

Digital won't make things much cheaper anyway. I don't think the cost of physical production is much more than about $3 a game.

You have to pick box art.  You have to burn the discs.  You have to package the discs.  You have to ship the packages.  You have to devote shelf-space to the packages.  You need the shelf and the store for the packages to be shelved in, people to unload the boxes, clerks at the cash registers, returns policies, theft in the stores, damaged goods via any point of shipping, unsold product sitting on a shelf that the store had to buy and the producer have to create and ship...

While digital distribution is not free, once you have servers and the bandwidth you need maintenance on said servers and bandwidth.  No packaging.  No shipping.  No guessing how many units to produce.  No man hours for clerks.  No property taxes for buildings the products are sold in.  Bandwidth can be expensive, but it's not all those other variables.

[AlanC9]

Whoops! You're right. $3 or so would be the publisher's costs that go away; it doesn't include the retail stores' costs. That's what happens when you work for publishers, I guess. Blind spot.

I don't actually know enough about the retail game sector to know what the store's markup is on a game.

[Trefalen]

As the economy gets tighter and tighter look for even sillier attempts at maximizing profits. There will be a transport fee added to games with map travel, Taxes on your home. Storage fees for your chest access etc.. Oh wait Soldiers keep (DA) was really just a fee for storage and armor. LOL Ya gotta love micro transactions.