87 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

There are plenty of other options to halt your foes while you reposition.
Mordin's incineration blast will stagger foes with defenses. The same goes for biotics.
Charging a group of foes is a skill, not a gamble. You never learned how to do it right, and that's ok, but telling everyone it's a bad idea = others aren't going to try.
Not trying = not learning. Spreading incompetence is the pinnacle of BS.

again that requires mordin to actually use incineration immediately...which is often not the case because of random delays.......which is a gamble to me

not charging a large group is a general guideline, adjusting for different situations is a given of course but it served me very well and it might serve others just as well, if you do not agree fine but do not come here and tell me I never learned to use the one power that helped me the most in several situations

[Lycidas]

Vanguards do actually have the IMHO very best class guide so far and it is done by very experienced players that have a lot of fun with the class.

See: http://social.biowar...8/index/1061080

No need to do a new one and no need to spread as much wrong informations as the OP does...

[crimzontearz]

Lycidas wrote...

Vanguards do actually have the IMHO very best class guide so far and it is done by very experienced players that have a lot of fun with the class.
See: http://social.biowar...8/index/1061080
No need to do a new one and no need to spread as much wrong informations as the OP does...

indeed

point being, all this comes from about 100 (no make that 80) hours spent on one full insanity run and several fragmented missions to find positional vantage exploits and better, safer tactics.....all this is not "wrong" information..it is what worked for me, it is what got me through insanity NG+ as a vanguard (happens the be my favorite and only class now) dying only a handful of times (half of them because of bugs related to charge or biotics....the others....well sometimes I like ****ing around to push the envelope of what I can risk just to see how much I can stretch it...and other times I must admitt I did stupid things)

regardless, I compiled this solely to help others who might have found, like I did, some of the other tips to be not so useful at all (the Grunt Tip in particular...I still find him useless but De Gustibus Non desputendum Est)

Thanks Jav for letting me post this before hopefully re-locking the thread

[Omicrone]

@ the OP: All of those hints you mentioned are useful for virgin vanguard players. Once you pull out the big shotgun and you catch the enemy with their pants down ... you know what follows?

Considering there are some youtube vids with a good 5-6 mins of non-interrupted footage where vanguards charge and use cover VERY rarely on insanity, I'd say your ideas about charge are wrong. You're either not using the proper upgrades or the proper equipment.

[Nexolek]

It just takes a bit of time to get used to NG+ is all. I like it for the added challenge, though I don't really find it hard anymore. Also, somewhere between Horizon and the Collector Ship the difficulty (due to you getting upgrades) moves into par with regular Insanity. It's only the beginning that's a bit tougher.

[FoFoZem]

I disagree. Jacob is a very good squad mate. He has access to Squad Incendiary, he can set up warp explosions and he has pretty good survivability relative to the other squad mates.



He is essential for my Sentinel.

[Tlazolteotl]

crimzontearz wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

There are plenty of other options to halt your foes while you reposition.
Mordin's incineration blast will stagger foes with defenses. The same goes for biotics.
Charging a group of foes is a skill, not a gamble. You never learned how to do it right, and that's ok, but telling everyone it's a bad idea = others aren't going to try.
Not trying = not learning. Spreading incompetence is the pinnacle of BS.

again that requires mordin to actually use incineration immediately...which is often not the case because of random delays.......which is a gamble to me

not charging a large group is a general guideline, adjusting for different situations is a given of course but it served me very well and it might serve others just as well, if you do not agree fine but do not come here and tell me I never learned to use the one power that helped me the most in several situations

Ok, let me put it another way.

What you're saying is the equivalent of "don't grab 6 bases in starcraft, you won't be able to protect them, and you'll lose!"
The number of bases you can take and hold is proportional to the player's skill.

The number of foes you can charge and defeat is proportional to the player's skill.

Yes, it may have served you very well, but I'm saying it's simply because you're not good enough yet.

[cruc1al]

Just to chime in with a tip of my own -



The safety of charging a limited number regular foes can be increased if you use Improved cryo ammo and Katana. Katana has a balanced damage and rate of fire combination; with the shield piercing upgrade, you'll blow through a regular merc's shields in one shot on NG+. It is very likely that at point blank range the merc will freeze, and will stay frozen for 7 seconds.



So here's what you do: you charge the first foe, freeze him, don't stay to melee him to death but immediately move to the next, freeze him, then move or charge to the next and freeze until all the enemies are frozen. Then you go around for another round with the other end of the shotgun. This is, I've found, the fastest way to neutralize enemies, even if it takes longer to actually kill them. Thus it's also potentially the safest; it eliminates the need to engage in a shot-melee cycle where mistakes and time taken per enemy can cost you your life.



Katana is perfect for this, because it blows through the shields but it doesn't suffer from the rate of fire limitations of Eviscerator. You won't have to wait to get to shoot the next enemy, and if you miss a shot or you find the enemy didn't freeze, you can quickly shoot again. The clip capacity also ensures it's very unlikely to run out of ammo with 3 enemies; and with more enemies you'll have time to charge to restore your shields and reload.

[Tlazolteotl]

But cruc1al, that's obviously not a good idea ... 'cos according to the OP a strategy is crap unless it's supported by his build.

Which, since he's a proponent of using shockwave, likely doesn't include any amount of cryo ammo. Or the katana.

[crimzontearz]

cruc1al wrote...

Just to chime in with a tip of my own -

The safety of charging a limited number regular foes can be increased if you use Improved cryo ammo and Katana. Katana has a balanced damage and rate of fire combination; with the shield piercing upgrade, you'll blow through a regular merc's shields in one shot on NG+. It is very likely that at point blank range the merc will freeze, and will stay frozen for 7 seconds.

So here's what you do: you charge the first foe, freeze him, don't stay to melee him to death but immediately move to the next, freeze him, then move or charge to the next and freeze until all the enemies are frozen. Then you go around for another round with the other end of the shotgun. This is, I've found, the fastest way to neutralize enemies, even if it takes longer to actually kill them. Thus it's also potentially the safest; it eliminates the need to engage in a shot-melee cycle where mistakes and time taken per enemy can cost you your life.

Katana is perfect for this, because it blows through the shields but it doesn't suffer from the rate of fire limitations of Eviscerator. You won't have to wait to get to shoot the next enemy, and if you miss a shot or you find the enemy didn't freeze, you can quickly shoot again. The clip capacity also ensures it's very unlikely to run out of ammo with 3 enemies; and with more enemies you'll have time to charge to restore your shields and reload.

notice how you suggest you tried something that worked for you and proposed it as a new alternative....I like that for a change in this thread...

I actually tried a build in which I replaced the Incendiary for Cryo (squad Cryo.....it was in one of the guides for insanity)...I did not much care for it probably because I was not following this particular path you are describing...I'd rather Charge a safer enemy and use a Charge-Claymore-melee chain  to kill him  and re-charge the next viable enemy after weakening through squadmates if necessary...of course  by the time I reached Legions' Loyalty I could almost safely charge a Hunter at full Health and Shield thanks to the upgrades but still

I might give it another go and try what you suggested if I get the itch for it 

[Tlazolteotl]

Umm, I'm starting to get the impression you don't know why people are jumping down your throat.

You start the thread with, "Bioware made insanity crap, AI crap, class balance crap, I had lots of trouble with vanguard and adept, and here's how I had to beat it, 'cos other people's advice is BS 'cos I fail at using it."

Dude ... insofar as game balance goes, ME2 does a better job than most games out there. Heck DA:O's game balance is ass by comparison ...

Now, I'm not saying this is a balanced game by any stretch .. it's not a multiplayer game where balance is necessary for competitive play to simply not suck, but seriously?

Also, I'm guessing you only played your vanguard on NG+ insanity. If that's the case, I'll have to say ... NG+ is retarded. Difficulty should increase as the game progresses, rather than decreasing drastically as you pick up upgrades (as is the case with NG+).

[Pacifien]

Everyone has their own alternative builds that work well for them, and I do like reading about the different reasonings why someone followed one build over another. I'd just caution people on thinking they have hit on a foolproof build that excels over another, or people dismissing another's ideas because those ideas didn't work for them.

For instance, my Infiltrator on Insanity difficulty is a long-range sniper with squad cryo ammo. That is arguably an odd choice given my lack of CQC, but I latched onto squad cryo with my Vanguard and am reluctant to let it go. I love it, and I'd suggest it to others, but I do so knowing it is not optimum on a long-range sniper build.

I'm also not a fan of the Cain or Reave, but a good many people like to suggest the use of both. It does me no good to read about other Vanguards using the Cain for the Thresher Maw when I know I'm not going to bring the thing.

Also, I'm pretty sure my suggestion to use an SMG for a Praetorian would be taken as farce.

I'm not going to doubt the OP's suggestions worked very well for him, but the suggestions are coupled with opinions that other methods were crap -- methods that worked perfectly fine for me even though I am not the sort to play a Vanguard.

Modifié par Pacifien, 12 mai 2010 - 12:54 .

[crimzontearz]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Umm, I'm starting to get the impression you don't know why people are jumping down your throat.
You start the thread with, "Bioware made insanity crap, AI crap, class balance crap, I had lots of trouble with vanguard and adept, and here's how I had to beat it, 'cos other people's advice is BS 'cos I fail at using it."
Dude ... insofar as game balance goes, ME2 does a better job than most games out there. Heck DA:O's game balance is ass by comparison ...
Now, I'm not saying this is a balanced game by any stretch .. it's not a multiplayer game where balance is necessary for competitive play to simply not suck, but seriously?
Also, I'm guessing you only played your vanguard on NG+ insanity. If that's the case, I'll have to say ... NG+ is retarded. Difficulty should increase as the game progresses, rather than decreasing drastically as you pick up upgrades (as is the case with NG+).

ok..let's see if I can help you understand where I am coming from 

Tho I like Shooters I am an RPG person, both on PC, Console (now that I abandoned PCs) and on Table Top. The idea that to inflate difficulty one resorts to simply skewing numbers to make mooks stronger and more dangerous is almost insulting to me (if you want to know why ask, I am not about to make a long winded argument about it). But I grinned and took it because Bioware decided to shift gameplay focus fully to shooter mechanics (luckily Christina has said to a magazine this will change in ME3). THAT is why I think the handling of insanity is poor. Maybe it is because I cling to the false hope that ME should be an RPG or at least keep some basis of RPG....it is not because it is too hard because if I actually finished it then it cannot be THAT bad. I had a much harder time with halo 3 on legendary or GoW on  whatever the hardest difficulty setting was called

the AI is FULLY crap....sorry, at least in DAO I can take control of my party and move them EXACTLY where I want them to be without them taking three steps in the right direction and then heading back right in the line of fire...I am sorry....there's nothing really I can say about it, maybe some think otherwise but I cannot comprehend how or why....

I never played as an Adept, I go by what a few friends I have told me about their experience if compared to other classes...apparently people here disagree, I am glad their experience is better than the one  my friends had. It is  a truth tho that some classes have an easier time than others.

I did not "fail" at using other people's advice..I just found it less effective for me. By what some people posted here  (in general) 1-shot-kills  are a common place regardless of the enemy type and so on and so forth (more serious posters will actually explain to you that there are conditions to be met to perform such shots).....Grunt is a godsend  and the best way to handle rush situations is to place your team mates ahead of you. It just did not work for me......maybe for them it did but not for me, at least not as well as I hoped....THIS is what worked for me and allowed me for instance to do horizon dying only once (goddamn  husks)

and yes I did play my run as a Vanguard in a NG+, perhaps that soured my experience......I do not care really because I had no idea that a NG+ run on insanity  would be (as I am told) so  much different from an insanity run starting from scratch

[crimzontearz]

Pacifien wrote...

Everyone has their own alternative builds that work well for them, and I do like reading about the different reasonings why someone followed one build over another. I'd just caution people on thinking they have hit on a foolproof build that excels over another, or people dismissing another's ideas because those ideas didn't work for them.

For instance, my Infiltrator on Insanity difficulty is a long-range sniper with squad cryo ammo. That is arguably an odd choice given my lack of CQC, but I latched onto squad cryo with my Vanguard and am reluctant to let it go. I love it, and I'd suggest it to others, but I do so knowing it is not optimum on a long-range sniper build.

I'm also not a fan of the Cain or Reave, but a good many people like to suggest the use of both. It does me no good to read about other Vanguards using the Cain for the Thresher Maw when I know I'm not going to bring the thing.

Also, I'm pretty sure my suggestion to use an SMG for a Praetorian would be taken as farce.

I'm not going to doubt the OP's suggestions worked very well for him, but the suggestions are coupled with opinions that other methods were crap -- methods that worked perfectly fine for me even though I am not the sort to play a Vanguard.

no actually thay is what I used for the Praetorian.....my entire team was using the Locust (tho I mut admitt I tossed in a few Claymore shots)

yes perhaps I could have been gentler but "Some" hints worked so poorly for me and caused that much frustration that I just could not help it

yes...I am talking about Grunt above all.....

oh and I did not use the Cain on the thresher either...I shot it like once with  the singularity projector for funsies but the rest  was handcannon and Locust and a whole lotta armor stripping powers

[Tlazolteotl]

And ... we've gone over this before.

Insanity is the "real" difficulty, and though I'm insulted that enemies have their defenses stripped when the kid gloves get applied, maybe some people simply prefer to have squishier foes. Most importantly (unlike ME1), the game doesn't force me to play on the easier modes.

By that I mean, on insanity, you kill them as fast as they kill you. Therefore it's just right. If by your extensive experience in tabletops and what not, you think PCs ought to have twice as many hp as their foes, I say that's a problem.

[ekwhite]

 Great Guide crimsontearz!  Having just gone through an insanity playthrough with my vanguard, I can say I wished I had read your guide before I started it.

[FFTARoxorz05]

Oh geez, DAO balance was brought up, explosions are about to ensue. And where is this interview where they're saying ME3 will change?



To stay on topic, NG+ on insanity seemed like a bad idea from the start. Only people who've played way too much and are bored with solo insanity or something should try it.

[Daforth]

Just a sidenote: NG+ insanity is only harder till you pass Horizon, from that it is quite the same and as you progress it will be the same as the original Insanity playthru.

[SmokeyNinjas]

Omicrone wrote...

@ the OP: All of those hints you mentioned are useful for virgin vanguard players. Once you pull out the big shotgun and you catch the enemy with their pants down ... you know what follows?

^^This.
Although the tip about getting armor that boosts shields haha no that doesn't matter.

The Vanguard simply has the highest learning curve but once you get it down it can tear though Insanity at a speed no other class can match.

If you have been playing the Vanguard for a long while & still can't use it properly then perhaps you should just stick with playing the Soldier so Adrenaline Rush can just hold you hand & walk you though the game.

[crimzontearz]

Tlazolteotl wrote...




And ... we've gone over this before.


Insanity is the "real" difficulty, and though I'm insulted that enemies have their defenses stripped when the kid gloves get applied, maybe some people simply prefer to have squishier foes. Most importantly (unlike ME1), the game doesn't force me to play on the easier modes.


By that I mean, on insanity, you kill them as fast as they kill you. Therefore it's just right. If by your extensive experience in tabletops and what not, you think PCs ought to have twice as many hp as their foes, I say that's a problem.

yes the PC should have X2 HP compared to say a cobold mook...and a common feral animal should not be treated as if wearing a chainmail just to make it harder to hit...harder fights should involve higher level foes...not skewed mooks and percentages....but we will never agree on this.


to those who asked...Christina spoke of ME3's return to RPG features in an interview to a magazine...was it GI or one of the European ones? can't remember....there's a link somewhere to a transcript.


to the one who thanked me....you are most welcome

[NICKjnp]

cruc1al wrote...

Just to chime in with a tip of my own -

The safety of charging a limited number regular foes can be increased if you use Improved cryo ammo and Katana. Katana has a balanced damage and rate of fire combination; with the shield piercing upgrade, you'll blow through a regular merc's shields in one shot on NG+. It is very likely that at point blank range the merc will freeze, and will stay frozen for 7 seconds.

So here's what you do: you charge the first foe, freeze him, don't stay to melee him to death but immediately move to the next, freeze him, then move or charge to the next and freeze until all the enemies are frozen. Then you go around for another round with the other end of the shotgun. This is, I've found, the fastest way to neutralize enemies, even if it takes longer to actually kill them. Thus it's also potentially the safest; it eliminates the need to engage in a shot-melee cycle where mistakes and time taken per enemy can cost you your life.

Katana is perfect for this, because it blows through the shields but it doesn't suffer from the rate of fire limitations of Eviscerator. You won't have to wait to get to shoot the next enemy, and if you miss a shot or you find the enemy didn't freeze, you can quickly shoot again. The clip capacity also ensures it's very unlikely to run out of ammo with 3 enemies; and with more enemies you'll have time to charge to restore your shields and reload.

I never got into the squad cryo ammo (though I agree completely about using the Katana).  I pefer to evovle pull field and have area reave so I don't have the points for squad cryo (though I put one point on cryo ammo for my smg).  That is just my build though... I've seen builds with the squad cryo ammo... and I was impressed (just not my cup of tea).  I prefer incendiary ammo (I like to watch enemies dance).

[Pacifien]

crimzontearz wrote...
yes the PC should have X2 HP compared to say a cobold mook...and a common feral animal should not be treated as if wearing a chainmail just to make it harder to hit...harder fights should involve higher level foes...not skewed mooks and percentages....but we will never agree on this.

I agree with you. As I said before, I'd have liked to come across a Praetorian or two at the Collector Base. Modified husks, not ones with armor, but increased health and that devastating overload ability that the ME1 versions had. Harbinger starts launching... I don't know, singularities at your team instead of his incendiary attack. Two Krogans flanking you from opposite sides.

Now that's my idea of Insanity.

[Xpheyel]

I think you've way overemphasized the Claymore and Shockwave.

At least for regular Insanity, Vanguard and Adept didn't seem like much trouble. 

[crimzontearz]

Pacifien wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
yes the PC should have X2 HP compared to say a cobold mook...and a common feral animal should not be treated as if wearing a chainmail just to make it harder to hit...harder fights should involve higher level foes...not skewed mooks and percentages....but we will never agree on this.

I agree with you. As I said before, I'd have liked to come across a Praetorian or two at the Collector Base. Modified husks, not ones with armor, but increased health and that devastating overload ability that the ME1 versions had. Harbinger starts launching... I don't know, singularities at your team instead of his incendiary attack. Two Krogans flanking you from opposite sides.

Now that's my idea of Insanity.

THANK YOU, that will be the first thing I'll tell Christina if she ever comes to this forum to ask about what we want in ME3's insanity setting (like she did for ME2)

[Tlazolteotl]

crimzontearz wrote...

yes the PC should have X2 HP compared to say a cobold mook...and a common feral animal should not be treated as if wearing a chainmail just to make it harder to hit...harder fights should involve higher level foes...not skewed mooks and percentages....but we will never agree on this.

Of course we disagree on this.
What exactly is the difference between "higher level foes" and "common mooks" ... ?
If you're going to say AC, hit points, and damage output, I'm going to smack you upside the head.

You only think they are "mooks" because you've been playing easy mode.

Regardless of how "high level" a general is, or how good his gear is, a single lucky arrow fired by a peasant will kill him.
That's how a properly balanced game ought to play.
You win with by virtue of timing and tactics, not by having higher stats.