117 réponses à ce sujet

[enormousmoonboots]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

No, him promising the Shadow Broker
intel was not new addon for ME 1 from ME 2 it was always there.  I'm
surprised so many are jumping for Kahoku, he is a flawed figure more
than anything.

Correct, but everyone used to see his actions as heroic, if flawed--trying to bring down a clearly horrific organization, even if using sketchy methods for it, is noble (it's also notable that ME1 painted the SB as a very neutral figure--recall Barla Von talking about how no matter how much info he gets, he never seems to tip the balances in a certain way. ME2/Redemption's demonic figure that bargains with Reapers is very much a retcon).

It is only when ME2 comes around, and the SB is unambiguously evil, and the Illusive Man has that delicious voice and just a hint of manly chest hair in his low-cut shirt and those piercing eyes and that oral fixation, oh my~, that people begin to call Kahoku a traitor and say his death was justified.

Similarly, I don't think I ever saw anyone defending Cerberus on the old forums. It's pretty much all Sheen's charisma. Which says a lot about his skill as a VA and the character design, but 'I am gay for him' is a poor moral argument.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 12 mai 2010 - 07:30 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Cerberus didn't have enough development in the first game. All we knew in the first was that Kahoku was like "they went Rogue" then a bunch of side quests relegated to their experience and no major encounter. Extremely ambiguous.



In regards to Kahoku he seems to be more of a figure of how far someone would go that would end up compromising themself. SHepard can become victim to this. Some people will defend ****ed up actions they do in the game when they are morally unjustifiable. In the bigger picture what Kahoku did was dangerous, to humanity and the Alliance.

[Foolsfolly]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR

Only because Cerberus killed his men to hide the fate of Banes. They did this AFTER going rogue and still the Alliance did nothing about it. They loosed a monster and because they had ties to it once couldn't be seen with it again. So they let troopers die for no reason.

That needed to be brought out in the open and Kahoku did it the only way he could, by going to the Shadow Broker. The Alliance and Cerebrus both need to face what happened on that day.


AND WHO WAS BANES!?! And why did so many people have to die just to make sure others thought he was still alive?

[enormousmoonboots]

I believe in justice. If the Alliance had produced a group like this that is a danger to the galaxy (and it is), better that more people know about it and fight it. If they don't want to take the bad press for producing a bunch of psychos, hey, maybe they shouldn't have funded the goddamn psychos in the first place.



I have no particular allegiance to humanity or the Alliance aside from 'all my stuff is there'. My allegiance is to justice, and you can bet your ass that if Cerberus was a rogue turian group, you'd go after them and turn them in. If the only reason you support Cerberus is 'they look like me'...that's kind of racist, dude.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR

Only because Cerberus killed his men to hide the fate of Banes. They did this AFTER going rogue and still the Alliance did nothing about it. They loosed a monster and because they had ties to it once couldn't be seen with it again. So they let troopers die for no reason.

That needed to be brought out in the open and Kahoku did it the only way he could, by going to the Shadow Broker. The Alliance and Cerebrus both need to face what happened on that day.


AND WHO WAS BANES!?! And why did so many people have to die just to make sure others thought he was still alive?

Finally something I can agree with, mostly, I do not believe Cerberus is actually rogue I think they are classified publicly as rogue, or at the very least the Alliance is still working with them.

Banes reveal will hopefully happen in ME 3... unless it already has happened.

Kahoku was just in his intentions, however given his position and what ended up happening he went out of his boundaries and that is why he ended up dead.

[Onyx Jaguar]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I believe in justice. If the Alliance had produced a group like this that is a danger to the galaxy (and it is), better that more people know about it and fight it. If they don't want to take the bad press for producing a bunch of psychos, hey, maybe they shouldn't have funded the goddamn psychos in the first place.

I have no particular allegiance to humanity or the Alliance aside from 'all my stuff is there'. My allegiance is to justice, and you can bet your ass that if Cerberus was a rogue turian group, you'd go after them and turn them in. If the only reason you support Cerberus is 'they look like me'...that's kind of racist, dude.

Still, promising such information to an information broker that would sell it to the highest bidder isn't justice.  It was an ally he was willing to exploit to find out info about Cerberus.  It could have had serious reprucussions.  It didn't in the long run but we can never be certain of such things.

[Solmanian]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

@Dean.
IF Me 2 is true face of Cerberus then please explain me WHY there is not a single chance to ask Miranda, Jacob or TiM himself about ME 1 events including Akuze (for sole survivors) and murdering of Adm Kahoku?

Because this was NO GO policy for new ME lead writer...
Way too many people on this forum fall in love whit that freaky blue eyes of TiM ONLY because of great (i admit) acting of Mr Sheen... but i live on this world too long and saw too many things to trust guy who will stab me in my back by first opportunity because he will decide that keeping me around become too risky for his operations.

wat r u talking about? if u completed the "hades hounds"  questline (or watever it was called) in ME1, u can question miranda about your previous run ins with cerberus. and then she'll start some beareucratic mambo jambo, about how it was a completely seperate branch of the organization...

[Solmanian]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I believe in justice. If the Alliance had produced a group like this that is a danger to the galaxy (and it is), better that more people know about it and fight it. If they don't want to take the bad press for producing a bunch of psychos, hey, maybe they shouldn't have funded the goddamn psychos in the first place.

I have no particular allegiance to humanity or the Alliance aside from 'all my stuff is there'. My allegiance is to justice, and you can bet your ass that if Cerberus was a rogue turian group, you'd go after them and turn them in. If the only reason you support Cerberus is 'they look like me'...that's kind of racist, dude.

poor, poor booty...
while cerberus fights to protect mankind, not unlike the salarien STG or the asari huntressess, you're willing to lump off your entire species, out of principle. who's the real psycho?

[Foolsfolly]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR

Only because Cerberus killed his men to hide the fate of Banes. They did this AFTER going rogue and still the Alliance did nothing about it. They loosed a monster and because they had ties to it once couldn't be seen with it again. So they let troopers die for no reason.

That needed to be brought out in the open and Kahoku did it the only way he could, by going to the Shadow Broker. The Alliance and Cerebrus both need to face what happened on that day.


AND WHO WAS BANES!?! And why did so many people have to die just to make sure others thought he was still alive?

Finally something I can agree with, mostly, I do not believe Cerberus is actually rogue I think they are classified publicly as rogue, or at the very least the Alliance is still working with them.

Banes reveal will hopefully happen in ME 3... unless it already has happened.

Kahoku was just in his intentions, however given his position and what ended up happening he went out of his boundaries and that is why he ended up dead.

But perhaps you have not thought of this.

Kahoku lied. He lied to the Shadow Broker. What was the thing he did? He found out from Shepard that someone set up a beacon to lure his men to their grissly deaths. He went out to look for answers and from the Shadow Broker learned that it was Cerberus. He promised to deliver anything they wanted for that information. He then sent the infomation to the only Human Spectre because he knew he had Cerberus wanting him dead and says he doesn't have much time left. 

He promised the Shadow Broker whatever he could because he was going to die anyway. The information he got, he sent to Shepard in the hopes that Shepard with his rank being above any Alliance officer could avenge his men's death.

Kahoku then died a hero. Sure he got Shepard in danger, but Shepard's used to that and other than a vague threat from the Shadow Broker's agent (which never came to pass) nothing ill happened to Shepard.

You're "He was a traitor" depends entirely on him meaning to repay the Shadow Broker. But his own dialogue about how he had little time left with Cereberus agents closing in contradicts this intension. Then it's up to Shepard to either pay the debt he inherited or not.

[Asheer_Khan]

Solmanian wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

@Dean.
IF Me 2 is true face of Cerberus then please explain me WHY there is not a single chance to ask Miranda, Jacob or TiM himself about ME 1 events including Akuze (for sole survivors) and murdering of Adm Kahoku?

Because this was NO GO policy for new ME lead writer...
Way too many people on this forum fall in love whit that freaky blue eyes of TiM ONLY because of great (i admit) acting of Mr Sheen... but i live on this world too long and saw too many things to trust guy who will stab me in my back by first opportunity because he will decide that keeping me around become too risky for his operations.

wat r u talking about? if u completed the "hades hounds"  questline (or watever it was called) in ME1, u can question miranda about your previous run ins with cerberus. and then she'll start some beareucratic mambo jambo, about how it was a completely seperate branch of the organization...

Cerberus rogue cells... same mambo jambo as you described  Miranda says when you confronting her about Pragia and what happened there whit all those kids.

And for your sole information, i completed Hades hounds about 10 times and by the way NEVER passed gathered info from cerberus network to Shadow Broker.
Kahoku knowns that Cerberus killers will get him before he will be able to complete his mission and that's why he pass lead to finish the job to Shepard.

Truth is that you CAN'T question anyone from Cerberus about ME 1 events without recive one answer:

"ROGUE CELL DID IT"

So i ask WHAT KIND OF LEADER TiM is if his cells goes rogue whenever they see that such action will be benefit them most?

And honestly i wonder what kind of comments Cerberus/TiM lovers will post if in ME 3 will start surfacing infos (for example from decoded by EDI Cerberus files reclaimed from that dead agent) that TiM personally authorized each "delivery" to Pragia or even he signed death warrant at kahoku...

But i doubt that Walters will go so far and break "good Cerberus/lousy Alliance" picture painted in ME 2.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 12 mai 2010 - 10:07 .

[Icinix]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR

Only because Cerberus killed his men to hide the fate of Banes. They did this AFTER going rogue and still the Alliance did nothing about it. They loosed a monster and because they had ties to it once couldn't be seen with it again. So they let troopers die for no reason.

That needed to be brought out in the open and Kahoku did it the only way he could, by going to the Shadow Broker. The Alliance and Cerebrus both need to face what happened on that day.


AND WHO WAS BANES!?! And why did so many people have to die just to make sure others thought he was still alive?

Finally something I can agree with, mostly, I do not believe Cerberus is actually rogue I think they are classified publicly as rogue, or at the very least the Alliance is still working with them.

Banes reveal will hopefully happen in ME 3... unless it already has happened.

Kahoku was just in his intentions, however given his position and what ended up happening he went out of his boundaries and that is why he ended up dead.

The Banes / Michel mission has a carry over tag to how you handled it.  One that COULD still be carried over to ME3.

Also, that box that Kasumi gets with potentially damaging information about  the Alliance, my money is on that information linking Cerberus to the Alliance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Truth is that you CAN'T question anyone from Cerberus about ME 1 events without recive one answer:

"ROGUE CELL DID IT"

So i ask WHAT KIND OF LEADER TiM is if his cells goes rogue whenever they see that such action will be benefit them most?

The irony of this in the context of the ME1 universe is great.

On one hand, we could say "the same caliber of leadership that makes up the Alliance which created and handled Cerberus for decades."

Another would be "the same as the enlightened Council, which protected one traitorous Spectre and was in no place to stop another from turning on them in the final battle."

In other words: the same as the 'good' governments. TIM runs a loose ship, just like them.

And honestly i wonder what kind of comments Cerberus/TiM lovers will post if in ME 3 will start surfacing infos (for example from decoded by EDI Cerberus files reclaimed from that dead agent) that TiM personally authorized each "delivery" to Pragia or even he signed death warrant at kahoku...

The first would be rather silly micromanaging, contrary to everything we've seen about TIM's handling of projects. He likes to be informed, not dictate what they do. The second makes sense as a means of silencing someone who could compromise Cerberus and the Alliance.

But i doubt that Walters will go so far and break "good Cerberus/lousy Alliance" picture painted in ME 2.

A picture which is cannon, and far more authoritive than any novels. Again, you have yet to provide any reason why ME2 is invalid in its depiction of Cerberus, when it is the game which you actually meet and interact with actual Cerberus persons who you aren't trying to kill from the start of the mission.

[Nerevar-as]

Why do people think SB was good in ME1? All we are told is he trades in info, and it´s not wise to cross him. I don´t see much of a retcon there whatever the original plan was. At worst s/he-they-whatever is a fool trading with the Collectors, not knowing what they want and/or not caring.

[Asheer_Khan]

I seriously wonder if ANY other actor voice over TiM Cerberus will have so hard devoted group of fans here...

Like someone posted here, on old forum Cerberus was practicly ignored but then comes ME 2 whit Martin Sheen in role of TiM and suddenly "OH LOOK HOW FANTASTIC THEY ARE!!" thread start to pop up... when what should be real cannon (aka war whit Reapers under combined banner of Alliance and Council) was kick out of the window by Walters and his team because CANON MASS EFFECT 1 story was written by someone else not him.

So no matter what arguments Cerberus lovers will use i will NEVER support this galactic version of SS and not even blue eyes of TiM convince me to trust him.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 12 mai 2010 - 04:31 .

[GodWood]

I'll never get the I hate working with Cerberus, Shepard should be serving the council mentality.

They're just as bad as each other except Cerberus is more useful when it comes to stopping the Reapers.

[Ieldra]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I seriously wonder if ANY other actor voice over TiM Cerberus will have so hard devoted group of fans here...

Like someone posted here, on old forum Cerberus was practicly ignored but then comes ME 2 whit Martin Sheen in role of TiM and suddenly "OH LOOK HOW FANTASTIC THEY ARE!!" thread start to pop up... when what should be real cannon (aka war whit Reapers under combined banner of Alliance and Council) was kick out of the window by Walters and his team because CANNON MASS EFFECT 1 story was written by someone else not him.

So no matter what arguments Cerberus lovers will use i will NEVER support this galactic version of SS and not even blue eyes of TiM convince me to trust him.

I've never considered myself a Cerberus fans, but I find myself defending them more often every time I read posts like yours.

Please consider:
(1) To be pro-human does not equal being racist. Even more genocidal.
(2) Whatever else you may think of them, Cerberus is the only organization seen to act against the Reapers. That doesn't make them perfect, but it should count for something.
(3) TIM is voice-acted very well, but I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom this is no consideration when thinking about Cerberus and its role in the context of the ME universe.

I think the changed role of Cerberus between ME1 and ME2 serves a very good purpose: from an irredeemable evil to a necessary one. Or maybe not. That Cerberus is two-faced in ME2, that in spite of its atrocities there may be a point to supporting them, or there may not, that's what makes the plot of ME2 so interesting. For face it, the Collectors aren't interesting. The reasoning for the human Reaper is crap. The reasoning given in the game for destroying the base is crap.  Cerberus and it's unknown agenda, those questions of how far you can go to protect humanity when no one else seems to do anything, how far you compromise your precious moral integrity, that's worth thinking about. And it follows you through the whole game from the start to the end.

Btw, it's "canon", not "cannon". You should be aware that there is a difference between the two...

[Asheer_Khan]

I remember that someone actually asked Mac Walters why Council and the Alliance in ME 2 act so idiotic, and what was his answer?

"BECAUSE THAT"S WAS MY VISION"

And i think that's explain everything... at least for me.

[Fiery Phoenix]

TudorWolf wrote...

The fact Anderson can potentially be a councilor when the events take place make me wonder how Drew is going to keep the continuity as he did in Ascension.

Not surprisingly, I was discussing this with my best friend the other week. It makes you wonder; how is Khalee going to deal with Anderson if he is the human Councilor and already has a lot on his shoulders? We were also discussing whether this Reaper technology thing mentioned in the book summary had any connection with NOT destroying the Collector base at the end of ME2.

In any case, whatever we say remains pure speculation. I'm sure Drew knows what he's doing better than anyone, as I really enjoyed his previous work. He seems to know how to handle these variables, no matter how difficult it may be.

[Ieldra]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
In any case, whatever we say remains pure speculation. I'm sure Drew knows what he's doing better than anyone, as I really enjoyed his previous work. He seems to know how to handle these variables, no matter how difficult it may be.

If only he could write interesting characters. I like his plots, but not his cardboard characters, and let's not speak about the worldbuilding at all...

[Itkovian]

I think even ME2 made it rather clear that Cerberus engages in dubious actions. Certainly, we are only exposed to their lighter side in ME2, but enough hints filter to you to show their darker side (never mind TiM's manipulations that get you on Horizon and the Derelict Ship).



There's a reason why blowing up the base is seen as a good action in the end. I have a feeling ME3 will deal heavily with Cerberus as well, and involve a resolution to our relationship with TiM.



Itkovian

[Markinator_123]

GodWood wrote...

I'll never get the I hate working with Cerberus, Shepard should be serving the council mentality.
They're just as bad as each other except Cerberus is more useful when it comes to stopping the Reapers.

This. People should just look at the spectre organization and Saren. Saren was the council's best spectre for decades and he was a sadist. The council has also been responsible for genocide, being ineffective, and has many other aspects that shouldn't be considered trustworthy.

[95Headhunter]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

TudorWolf wrote...

The fact Anderson can potentially be a councilor when the events take place make me wonder how Drew is going to keep the continuity as he did in Ascension.

Not surprisingly, I was discussing this with my best friend the other week. It makes you wonder; how is Khalee going to deal with Anderson if he is the human Councilor and already has a lot on his shoulders? We were also discussing whether this Reaper technology thing mentioned in the book summary had any connection with NOT destroying the Collector base at the end of ME2.

In any case, whatever we say remains pure speculation. I'm sure Drew knows what he's doing better than anyone, as I really enjoyed his previous work. He seems to know how to handle these variables, no matter how difficult it may be.

It shouldn't actually be too hard, so long as it's Kahlee with the narrative voice (as in Ascension) as opposed to Anderson (as in Revelation). All Drew has to do then is keep references to Anderson's work vague, as people do a surprising amount in real conversation. All Anderson has to do is refer to things like 'his work on the Citadel' or 'his relationship with the council' or how 'he was glad to escape the politics of the Citadel for a while'.

Gets the necessary emotions across without explicitly stating what Anderson does.

Of course if it's written from Anderson's point of view (which I doubt, as it's Kahlee with prior experience of Grayson) then that becomes much harder. But Drew's a pretty good author, I'm sure he's got it all figured out so that everyone who plays the game is happy.

[Itkovian]

To be sure, I think ME2 also conveys very clearly that the Council isn't the ultimate answer either, and has its own flaws as an option to Cerberus.

ME3 will likely clear things up (does anyone expect the Council, or the Citadel for that matter, to survive ME3? )

Itkovian

[Fiery Phoenix]

95Headhunter wrote...
It shouldn't actually be too hard, so long as it's Kahlee with the narrative voice (as in Ascension) as opposed to Anderson (as in Revelation). All Drew has to do then is keep references to Anderson's work vague, as people do a surprising amount in real conversation. All Anderson has to do is refer to things like 'his work on the Citadel' or 'his relationship with the council' or how 'he was glad to escape the politics of the Citadel for a while'.

Gets the necessary emotions across without explicitly stating what Anderson does.

Of course if it's written from Anderson's point of view (which I doubt, as it's Kahlee with prior experience of Grayson) then that becomes much harder. But Drew's a pretty good author, I'm sure he's got it all figured out so that everyone who plays the game is happy.

You bring a good point. I'm sure he's got things set and ready from the get-go as well. And I personally imagine the novel will be slightly more referential to the game(s) than Ascension was, as it apparently picks just where ME2 left off.