117 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Itkovian wrote...

ME3 will likely clear things up (does anyone expect the Council, or the Citadel for that matter, to survive ME3? )

They have a better chance than TIM

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I remember that someone actually asked Mac Walters why Council and the Alliance in ME 2 act so idiotic, and what was his answer?
"BECAUSE THAT"S WAS MY VISION"
And i think that's explain everything... at least for me.

I'm sure he didn't speak in all caps. I'm also suspcious that he was asked why they were idiotic, as opposed to unhelpful.

Narratively, the outcast/exiled hero more or less abandoned by former allies/authority is a classic track of the heroic legend genre, which Mass Effect is. Likewise so is the dangerous ally, a necessary evil who may or may not turn the hero against that which he believed and was allied with prior.

[mosor]

As someone else said, I don't see being pro-human as being racist. Would you put the lives and interests of others over the lives and security over your own family? To me, that's an easy choice.



If you listen to the radio broadcasts and the council is alive, every time humanity is in trouble, the council refuses to help them and expects us to deal with our own problems. Yet when they are in trouble, they expect humanity to come to their rescue. That's a bunch of horse crap.



Personally I like Cerberus. Even more so because I generally find the key renegade decisions more interesting than the paragon one. It's not the voice acting, which BTW is very good. TIM is well written, has our best virtues and hated vices. That makes him a great complex character.



Miranda does more than just say rogue cells did it. They were looking to make shock troopers and super soldiers. Her reasoning for experimenting on husks, racni and thorian creepers doesn't seem unreasonable. Especially in light of the fact that humanity is new and insecure in the galaxy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I seriously wonder if ANY other actor voice over TiM Cerberus will have so hard devoted group of fans here...

Like someone posted here, on old forum Cerberus was practicly ignored but then comes ME 2 whit Martin Sheen in role of TiM and suddenly "OH LOOK HOW FANTASTIC THEY ARE!!" thread start to pop up... when what should be real cannon (aka war whit Reapers under combined banner of Alliance and Council) was kick out of the window by Walters and his team because CANNON MASS EFFECT 1 story was written by someone else not him.

I have no idea who Martin Sheen is (besides the voice) or other roles he has done. That he does a great job with the nuance of an someone capable of great evil and great good in the same breath is a credit to him and the character: many sub-par voice actors could have simply gone for the stereotypical stupid-evil idealogue treatment we got in ME1. (Oh, hey, let's put Thresher Maw acid in a person's veins. Why? Because we're just that evil! That sort of writing is trash.)

In ME1, Cerberus was a minor side issue that was never explored in any depth. In ME2, which equally canon, it was a focus. With more exposition, it's only natural for more informed to views to grow and differ. That the story didn't follow your precious preconceptions is a prejudice on your part, not the writiers.

So no matter what arguments Cerberus lovers will use i will NEVER support this galactic version of SS and not even blue eyes of TiM convince me to trust him.

Cerberus has never been the SS or anti-alien racists, in the past or present incarnation. Infact, most of their known actions, done while part of the Alliance, have been aimed with/at/against individual humans in order to shape the general progress of humanity. Even their worst atrocities with the shallowest/stupidest justifications, Jack, Akuze, the E-zero accidents, the assassination of Terra Firma politicians, haven't been aimed at aliens.

That's a truth of the canon. However, the canon is also an argument, but you've made quite clear you won't accept any argument which goes against your desired non-existent personal 'cannon.'

[Asheer_Khan]

I don't remember that Luke Skywalker was FORCED to work whit the Empire in ESTB, or i don't remember that Frodo was FORCED to work whit Saruman in LoTR 2 so this whole "necessary evil" concept is nothing more than develop by Walter's idiocy to promote Cerberus to undeserved glory...

[CmdrFenix83]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR

First off, there's this thing called 'lying'.  People do it all the time.  You have zero evidence that Kahoku actually made that promise.  Either Kahoku could have lied to get help from the Shadow Broker, or the Shadow Broker's Agent made this up to try and weasel evidence out of Shepard after Shepard obtained the information.

Now, back to on topic:

I find it weird that they're using Anderson in the novel, especially since a large number of people have him sitting on the Council.  I know in Ascension that it's mentioned that the human Counciller hasn't been selected yet, but we know Anderson/Udina had been sitting on the Council since shortly after Shepard's death.  It's odd to have the Counciller or Counciller candidate running around the galaxy playing spy.

[mosor]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I don't remember that Luke Skywalker was FORCED to work whit the Empire in ESTB, or i don't remember that Frodo was FORCED to work whit Saruman in LoTR 2 so this whole "necessary evil" concept is nothing more than develop by Walter's idiocy to promote Cerberus to undeserved glory...

The empire in star wars and Sauron/Saruman in LoTR are more akin to the Reapers in ME2 than Cerberus. You're not forced to work for the reapers so far. I like the fact that ME moved away from black and white good/evil storytelling and moved to the gray.

[Barquiel]

Well, racists and terrorists are not really "gray" for me...

[screwoffreg]

Barquiel wrote...

Well, racists and terrorists are not really "gray" for me...

Considering the Citadel races are made up of people who approve of genocide (genophage), slavery, narcotic sales, and the sex trade (asari) as well as various other faults, I don't think anyone has much room to criticize Cerberus.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 12 mai 2010 - 04:44 .

[Asheer_Khan]

@Dean.
Martin Sheen is first line hollywood actor (google his name and you will recive whole list of his movies).

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 12 mai 2010 - 04:49 .

[screwoffreg]

Martin Sheen was President Bartlett in the West Wing. How can you NOT trust the President?!

[Lunatic LK47]

screwoffreg wrote...

Martin Sheen was President Bartlett in the West Wing. How can you NOT trust the President?!

Except he made a deal with the a devil that would inadvertently create armageddon by giving him his best assassin. That's reason enough (Spawn reference)!

[Lord Nicholai]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I don't remember that Luke Skywalker was FORCED to work whit the Empire in ESTB, or i don't remember that Frodo was FORCED to work whit Saruman in LoTR 2 so this whole "necessary evil" concept is nothing more than develop by Walter's idiocy to promote Cerberus to undeserved glory...

Right, judging by your posts in this thread I can see that you don't like the fact that Shepard works with Cerberus, but why does that mean its a crap idea and isn't 'right'? Shep died, was brought back by Cerberus, the Alliance is too busy playing politics to see the real threat of the reapers, so Shep sees Cerberus as his only option (or should he waste time trying to get them on his side whilst the collectors keep on abducting colonists for the reapers?). They aren't on the Empire/ Saruman scale of evil, thats just absurd and a pretty poor comparison.

[Barquiel]

screwoffreg wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Well, racists and terrorists are not really "gray" for me...

Considering the Citadel races are made up of people who approve of genocide (genophage), slavery, narcotic sales, and the sex trade (asari) as well as various other faults, I don't think anyone has much room to criticize Cerberus.

The genophage isn't the problem, because it wasn't made to kill the Krogan (but stabilize their numbers).  Wrex himself says the krogan are dying because they are not united (and kill each other...).

Illium is no council space

Modifié par Barquiel, 12 mai 2010 - 05:15 .

[tausra]

Any organization that has so many "rogue" facets as Cerberus it would lead me to believe that the entire organization condones this behavior. Akuze, Rachni Soldier experimentation, Husk Development, Thorian Spawn testing, and Torturing Children for Biotic powers. Seems to me there's a lot of "rogue" cells. I wouldn't complain had the Cerberus Alliance been optional, because everyone of my Shepards would rather kill themselves than work with such a group.

[enormousmoonboots]

Solmanian wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I believe in justice. If the Alliance had produced a group like this that is a danger to the galaxy (and it is), better that more people know about it and fight it. If they don't want to take the bad press for producing a bunch of psychos, hey, maybe they shouldn't have funded the goddamn psychos in the first place.

I have no particular allegiance to humanity or the Alliance aside from 'all my stuff is there'. My allegiance is to justice, and you can bet your ass that if Cerberus was a rogue turian group, you'd go after them and turn them in. If the only reason you support Cerberus is 'they look like me'...that's kind of racist, dude.

poor, poor booty...
while cerberus fights to protect mankind, not unlike the salarien STG or the asari huntressess, you're willing to lump off your entire species, out of principle. who's the real psycho?

Cerberus doesn't fight to protect mankind. In fact, they've done a really good job of killing them--two+ units of marines murdered (Akuze, Kahoku's squad, listening outpost rachni), three colonies murdered (Akuze, thorian colony, dumped eezo dust in the atmo of another)--literally, Cerberus is responsible for the deaths of thousands of humans. TIM says he'd approve of making a human Reaper, which you make by melting tens of thousands of humans. "You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette", you might say. Not if you say your job is to protect the eggs.

If the STG or huntresses were doing that, I'd take them down, too. I'm not going to give preferential treatment to humans.

@ tausra: Actually, you discover that 'rogue cells' are a big fat lie. After the game, EDI tells you that TIM is a control freak who micromanages every one of his projects.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...

[quote]Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Seriously you guys need to go back to ME 1 and play that quest line. Kahoku promised classified ALliance Intelligence to Agents of the Shadow Broker.

VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR[/quote]

First off, there's this thing called 'lying'.  People do it all the time.  You have zero evidence that Kahoku actually made that promise.  Either Kahoku could have lied to get help from the Shadow Broker, or the Shadow Broker's Agent made this up to try and weasel evidence out of Shepard after Shepard obtained the information.[quote][/quote]Actually, we do have reason to believe it true. Reasons, in fact. Other than narrative authority and being the end-quest decision, we know that Kohaku was going to and had purchased information from the Shadow Broker: Kohaku tells us himself that he has done so. We also know that the Shadow Breaker buys and trades information, and barring Kohaku spending a fortune it's very reasonable that the Shadow Broker made a quid-pro-quo deal with Kohaku. Since Kohakau had already by that point comitted himself to going against the Alliance for the sake and memory of his men, promising that information in exchange would have been entirely in character for him.

Are these hard evidence? No, but then little in the game that we accept as truth is presented in a form that is hard evidence.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 mai 2010 - 05:38 .

[screwoffreg]

Barquiel wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Well, racists and terrorists are not really "gray" for me...

Considering the Citadel races are made up of people who approve of genocide (genophage), slavery, narcotic sales, and the sex trade (asari) as well as various other faults, I don't think anyone has much room to criticize Cerberus.

The genophage isn't the problem, because it wasn't made to kill the Krogan (but stabilize their numbers).  Wrex himself says the krogan are dying because they are not united (and kill each other...).

Illium is no council space

The letter of the law is irrelevent.  The Council races actively profit off of pretty horrendous activities and the issue that the Krogan have always had is SEPERATE from the horror of the Genophage.  Even Mordin can be convinced it was wrong, or at least extremely damaging. 

Cerberus is probably no different than any of the other special forces of the major powers.  Also, bear in mind Cerberus is TINY.  When EDI finally reveals the resources of the Illusive Man it is pretty surprising.  They have only a few active cells, a lot of money, but hardly the power needed to project great influence across the Galaxy.  Though they have supporters in the Alliance, I doubt the could command the entire fleet to come to their rescue, whereas "official" special forces like the STG could call for backup from the government.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I don't remember that Luke Skywalker was FORCED to work whit the Empire in ESTB, or i don't remember that Frodo was FORCED to work whit Saruman in LoTR 2 so this whole "necessary evil" concept is nothing more than develop by Walter's idiocy to promote Cerberus to undeserved glory...

If you're trying to use two works of your own choosing to disprove a point about entire genres, at least have the sense to cherrypick two works in which the device does not exist.Anakin Skywalker did feel compelled to work with Palpatine after years of struggling with the Dark Side and using it as a necessary force for good, while
Frodo wrestled with using the powers of the evil Ring until it nearly
consumed him. In both works heroes were corrupted/nearly corrupted by evil people and forces until their final dramatic climax (Anakin redeems himself, the Ring is cast away.)

[bioware_fan]

I was disappointed that my sole survivor couldn't mention the experiments on Akuze.

[Barquiel]

screwoffreg wrote...

Cerberus is probably no different than any of the other special forces of the major powers.  Also, bear in mind Cerberus is TINY.  When EDI finally reveals the resources of the Illusive Man it is pretty surprising.  They have only a few active cells, a lot of money, but hardly the power needed to project great influence across the Galaxy.  Though they have supporters in the Alliance, I doubt the could command the entire fleet to come to their rescue, whereas "official" special forces like the STG could call for backup from the government.

and that's the difference imo
Salarian STGs and Asari commandos answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual (with freaky eyes and a racist agenda), who is accountable to no one.

Spectres, STGs, even Justicars and Spectres are respected.
Cerberus has "a dark reputation" (to quote Shepard) and most humans don't really like this organization^_^

Modifié par Barquiel, 12 mai 2010 - 06:00 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

bioware_fan wrote...

I was disappointed that my sole survivor couldn't mention the experiments on Akuze.

If Bioware were to have done that, they would have needed to put some flags into ME-ME2 import where you state whether you believed what Toombs told you was the truth.

Even if you did, they would then also need to flag whether Shepard was pissed off about that or not. Seeing as the events on Akuze are part of what made Shepard the person they are at the time of the games?

People can have different opinions on such matters.

One of my sole survivors thinks that Toombs was one loaf short of a picnic basket.

[Dean_the_Young]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I believe in justice. If the Alliance had produced a group like this that is a danger to the galaxy (and it is), better that more people know about it and fight it. If they don't want to take the bad press for producing a bunch of psychos, hey, maybe they shouldn't have funded the goddamn psychos in the first place.

I have no particular allegiance to humanity or the Alliance aside from 'all my stuff is there'. My allegiance is to justice, and you can bet your ass that if Cerberus was a rogue turian group, you'd go after them and turn them in. If the only reason you support Cerberus is 'they look like me'...that's kind of racist, dude.

poor, poor booty...
while cerberus fights to protect mankind, not unlike the salarien STG or the asari huntressess, you're willing to lump off your entire species, out of principle. who's the real psycho?

Cerberus doesn't fight to protect mankind. In fact, they've done a really good job of killing them--two+ units of marines murdered (Akuze, Kahoku's squad, listening outpost rachni), three colonies murdered (Akuze, thorian colony, dumped eezo dust in the atmo of another)--literally, Cerberus is responsible for the deaths of thousands of humans. TIM says he'd approve of making a human Reaper, which you make by melting tens of thousands of humans. "You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette", you might say. Not if you say your job is to protect the eggs.

On the first part, most nations have conducted tests on their own citizens, willingly and unwillingly, to develop various technologies. When we start full-scale genetic engineering, entire generations will become test subjects for the betterment of their groups. Conducting tests on your own group, so long as those tests don't cripple , hundreds and even thousands out of a population of billions is a day's worth of traffic accidents. While the colony tests were malign (part of the pointless-evil characterization in ME1), that does not mean they were not useful or advance anything. Breaking one egg to learn how to save the rest is not a self-destroying behavior.

And, if we're talking about eggs, here's a metaphor FDR used: You can't make an omlet without breaking them eggs.

For dumped e-zero, if I remember what you're referring to correctly, we actually have wildly differing casualty statements: one from the game from Lietenant Alenko, in which biotics were a 1 in 10 and complications were something like 1 in 2, but we also have the books, in which the ratio of biotics per deaths was 1 in thousands. In a conflict of statistics, the game takes priority.

@ tausra: Actually, you discover that 'rogue cells' are a big fat lie. After the game, EDI tells you that TIM is a control freak who micromanages every one of his projects.

And yet during the game, we see and hear multiple times from multiple that while TIM likes to keep an eye out, he is hands-off as a manager. Given that EDI's other statements are also at odds with what we know about Cerberus (a staff of only 150 for an organization that has not only penetrated every level of the Alliance and every human colony, but also mans a variety of starships, space stations, and research projects? Yeah, sure, that's accurate.), priority when the game contradicts itself should always go to the one with more weight and visibility. In the case of TIM being a mircromanager or not, every Cerberus project we've encountered in-game.

When your information feed is deliberately sabatoged, you can't keep hands on if you wanted to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 mai 2010 - 07:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

bioware_fan wrote...

I was disappointed that my sole survivor couldn't mention the experiments on Akuze.

If Bioware were to have done that, they would have needed to put some flags into ME-ME2 import where you state whether you believed what Toombs told you was the truth.

Even if you did, they would then also need to flag whether Shepard was pissed off about that or not. Seeing as the events on Akuze are part of what made Shepard the person they are at the time of the games?

People can have different opinions on such matters.

One of my sole survivors thinks that Toombs was one loaf short of a picnic basket.

My sole survivor was part of Cerberus even before Akuze. How do you think she survived? :innocent:

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

bioware_fan wrote...

I was disappointed that my sole survivor couldn't mention the experiments on Akuze.

If Bioware were to have done that, they would have needed to put some flags into ME-ME2 import where you state whether you believed what Toombs told you was the truth.

Even if you did, they would then also need to flag whether Shepard was pissed off about that or not. Seeing as the events on Akuze are part of what made Shepard the person they are at the time of the games?

People can have different opinions on such matters.

One of my sole survivors thinks that Toombs was one loaf short of a picnic basket.

My sole survivor was part of Cerberus even before Akuze. How do you think she survived? :innocent:

Got to hand it to you, that is pure genius thinking and thus further proving my point that all the talk about sole survivors and akuze cannot be 'railroaded' into one chain of thought as some think it should have been.