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[mosor]

Nivenus wrote...

mosor wrote...

Not sure about that. Spectres generally act pretty renegade, especially Saren and Nihlus. They're not so much paragon as they are self interested. Hell lots of human colonies dissappear and all they can say is that it's a human problem and humans should solve it? Whats the point of a council if you can't band together and help when one race needs it. Even the real life dithering UN security council, whch this council seems to be based on, would intervene if a major disaster struck another country and that country asked for help rather than say your problem, deal with it.

The council seems to largely disapprove of your renegade choices (they disapprove of your paragon choices too, but to a lesser extent) and their main goal seems to be maintaining galactic harmony, which is very paragon in nature. As for the UN, there's been plenty of examples of human disasters that they sat out, due to internal squabblings and interstate politics. I'm sure the Council intervenes on most occasions, so long as they think the political fallout will be limited.

They're mostly portrayed as dithering and somewhat incompetent in ME2, not so much as selfish. They're inaction regarding the human colonies doesn't seem to be the asari, turians, and salarians quashing humans (they did, after all, give humanity a seat and I believe the all-human council acts much the same way) as it is just the Council's own isolation from the reality of the situation.

It is selfish if along with galactic harmony, you want to maintain the status quo. The status quo harmony  always benefits those already in charge. They really had no choice in giving humanity a seat after what happened with soveriegn. Their fleets were decimated, and they needed humanity for protection. That was more of a self interested move than an alturistic one.

The human led council acts differently. Not to Sheppard mind you, but on the news reports they send out their fleets and dreadnaughts to confront problems.

The old council is more debate, more dithering, less taking of action but a lot more trust in humanity. The human led council is a lot more action but also a lot less trust from the turians and asari.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nivenus wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The collectors didn't attack colonies inside Citadel space.

That's important too and it's also the chief reason why they refuse to support Shepard at the end of ME1.

See, I don't buy this.

The Alliance is part of the Citadel. Even Eden Prime, on the borders of the Terminus Regions, was 'in' Citadel space. So were the areas of Geth incursions. The Counsel sent fleets to neither.

That was back in ME1 even. In ME2, the Alliance isn't just part of the Council superstructure: it's a (supposedly) co-equal member of the Council. What is Alliance space at that point should, be definition, be Citadel space.

The Alliance has reason for not sending a fleet: either it was devestated at Sovereign and is still rebuilding, or Humanity is focused on solidifying control with its Council. But if the Council is around, both the Turians and the Asari fleets are still more or less complete. They do have the ability to send forces. But they don't.

[Nivenus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The collectors didn't attack colonies inside Citadel space.

That's important too and it's also the chief reason why they refuse to support Shepard at the end of ME1.

See, I don't buy this.

The Alliance is part of the Citadel. Even Eden Prime, on the borders of the Terminus Regions, was 'in' Citadel space. So were the areas of Geth incursions. The Counsel sent fleets to neither.

That was back in ME1 even. In ME2, the Alliance isn't just part of the Council superstructure: it's a (supposedly) co-equal member of the Council. What is Alliance space at that point should, be definition, be Citadel space.

The Alliance has reason for not sending a fleet: either it was devestated at Sovereign and is still rebuilding, or Humanity is focused on solidifying control with its Council. But if the Council is around, both the Turians and the Asari fleets are still more or less complete. They do have the ability to send forces. But they don't.

The Terminus Systems are not formally claimed by the Council. They also appear to have a real astrographical value beyond simply meaning systems not controlled by the Council. The Council doesn't oppose members forming colonies in the Systems, but they'd rather not start a war with the batarians or other non-Citadel factions.

As for Eden Prime, it happened before the Council had time to properly respond. The Normandy was just in the right place at the right time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Various parts of the Terminus Systems are claimed by the Alliance. Which is part of the Council. It would be like the US claiming to own, operate, control, tax, and regulate Hawaii, but refuse to do anything if Hawaii was in trouble.



Eden Prime wasn't about being there before the Geth: it was about the Council sitting on it's collective ass after the invasion. Hence Udina's 'this is an outrage!'

[Barquiel]

Illium and Noveria are asari/human colonies, but no council space.
The mechanic guy on Horizon even says it. The colonists left citadel space because they don't want to have anything to do with the Alliance.

btw, the alliance fleet wasn't devastated. The fifth fleet lost 8 cruisers at the Citadel (paragon ending), that's all.
The alliance did...nothing in ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

According to the game, that's quite a great deal for the Alliance, which was already smaller than most to start with. Who are we to argue?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 mai 2010 - 11:28 .

[Nivenus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Various parts of the Terminus Systems are claimed by the Alliance. Which is part of the Council. It would be like the US claiming to own, operate, control, tax, and regulate Hawaii, but refuse to do anything if Hawaii was in trouble.

Eden Prime wasn't about being there before the Geth: it was about the Council sitting on it's collective ass after the invasion. Hence Udina's 'this is an outrage!'

No, it's more like the European Union not considering Gibraltar or the Isle of Man to be a member state. They're dependencies of the UK, but they're not members of the EU. Horizon and Freedom's Progress are more like Guam or American Samoa than Hawaii in their relationship to the Alliance. They're colonies, not member states. Hawaii has voting representatives in Congress. Guam and Samoa do not.

For that matter, Horizon doesn't even seem to largely consider itself a part of the Alliance.

And, as Barquiel says, Ilium and Noveria are not part of Council space either.

[mosor]

I bet if it was ilium rather than horizon that got attacked, the council would be more proactive to investigate. Upstart humans on the other hand, they can't give a damn.

[Nivenus]

mosor wrote...

I bet if it was ilium rather than horizon that got attacked, the council would be more proactive to investigate. Upstart humans on the other hand, they can't give a damn.

No, I don't think so.

For one thing, Ilium actually violates Citadel law in several cases. I'm sure they value it as an economic asset, but I don't think they feel particularly obliged to protect it either, given it's vehement independence and unregulated market.

[mosor]

Nivenus wrote...

mosor wrote...

I bet if it was ilium rather than horizon that got attacked, the council would be more proactive to investigate. Upstart humans on the other hand, they can't give a damn.

No, I don't think so.

For one thing, Ilium actually violates Citadel law in several cases. I'm sure they value it as an economic asset, but I don't think they feel particularly obliged to protect it either, given it's vehement independence and unregulated market.

Come to think of it, I believe Iluim is in council space anyway, just not part of the asari republics. They're the gateway to the terminus systems, not actually in it. They relaxed the council space customs laws here to facilite trade with the terminus systems if I remember correct.y

[Nivenus]

mosor wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

mosor wrote...

I bet if it was ilium rather than horizon that got attacked, the council would be more proactive to investigate. Upstart humans on the other hand, they can't give a damn.

No, I don't think so.

For one thing, Ilium actually violates Citadel law in several cases. I'm sure they value it as an economic asset, but I don't think they feel particularly obliged to protect it either, given it's vehement independence and unregulated market.

Come to think of it, I believe Iluim is in council space anyway, just not part of the asari republics. They're the gateway to the terminus systems, not actually in it. They relaxed the council space customs laws here to facilite trade with the terminus systems if I remember correct.y

Pretty sure it's not in Council space.

Mass Effect Wiki wrote...

Illium is a classic garden world developed to serve as entrepot between the Terminus Systems and the Asari Republics. To abet this trade the normally stringent customs laws of Council space on product-safety-proscribed materials and sapient trafficking are relaxed. Officially, Illium is not an asari world; it is colonized and operated by asari corporate interests. This gives it the same legal latitude enjoyed by the human corporate research enclaves of Noveria. Illium is one of the youngest asari colonies settled during the 7th Expansion Wave. The first child born on the world is only now reaching her middle age. The world is hot and massive; ground settlement is only possible at the higher polar latitudes. In more equatorial locations the population is housed in arcology skyscrapers to escape the heat of the surface.

I believe that's lifted straight from the in-game description, though I'm not 100% sure.

Modifié par Nivenus, 13 mai 2010 - 01:36 .

[mosor]

Non-Asari world doesn't mean it's not council space.



Read the second line:To abet this trade the normally stringent customs laws of Council space on product-safety-proscribed materials and sapient trafficking are relaxed.



That means it is council space and their normal customs laws are relaxed. If it was terminus, this wouldn't even be an issue.



Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Noveria is council space too. It's just not run by the systems alliance. The fact that the administrator has to give leeway to a council spectre implies that it is council space. An independent planet on the terminus systems need not give any leeway.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a legal loophole that means nothing much. Illium is a de-facto Asari world, much as Noveria is a de-facto human world.  Noveria was 'technically' not part of Citadel space, but the Council had plenty of arrangements, privilages, and concerns regardless.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 mai 2010 - 01:49 .

[Nivenus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's a legal loophole that means nothing much. Illium is a de-facto Asari world, much as Noveria is a de-facto human world.  Noveria was 'technically' not part of Citadel space, but the Council had plenty of arrangements, privilages, and concerns regardless.

Yes, and the US has lots of nifty economic arrangements with Japan, UK, Canada, and several other countries. You wouldn't say they're part of the US, though, would you?

Strong economic ties =/= the same state.

[CmdrFenix83]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Various parts of the Terminus Systems are claimed by the Alliance. Which is part of the Council. It would be like the US claiming to own, operate, control, tax, and regulate Hawaii, but refuse to do anything if Hawaii was in trouble.

Eden Prime wasn't about being there before the Geth: it was about the Council sitting on it's collective ass after the invasion. Hence Udina's 'this is an outrage!'

Just flat out wrong.  Horizon and the other human colonies in the Terminus Systems are there because the humans there wanted to get away from the Alliance.  They are not Alliance colonies, they just are settled by individuals that share a species. 

A proper analogy would be the Puritans leaving England to settle the Americas and then coming under attack by a foreign power.  The Puritans in this case have no ties to England anymore.  Why the hell would England help them?

The Systems Alliance is just a group formed to represent all of the various human governments on the galactic scene.  Horizon and the other Terminus colonies are not within Alliance jurisdiction and are not member nations of the Systems Alliance.

[Nivenus]

Some of the human colonies in the Terminus systems are Alliance colonies. Others are, like Horizon, independent (or at least they'd like to be - Ashley/Kaidan's presence seems to suggest otherwise).

Both games say several times that the Alliance has intentionally settles the Terminus a few times before, which led to the withdrawal of the batarians from associate membership on the Council and their eventual attacks on the Alliance (Mindoir, Elysium, etc.).

Modifié par Nivenus, 13 mai 2010 - 02:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nivenus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's a legal loophole that means nothing much. Illium is a de-facto Asari world, much as Noveria is a de-facto human world.  Noveria was 'technically' not part of Citadel space, but the Council had plenty of arrangements, privilages, and concerns regardless.

Yes, and the US has lots of nifty economic arrangements with Japan, UK, Canada, and several other countries. You wouldn't say they're part of the US, though, would you?

Strong economic ties =/= the same state.

The ties between the research worlds and their species go far beyond simply economic.

[Nivenus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's a legal loophole that means nothing much. Illium is a de-facto Asari world, much as Noveria is a de-facto human world.  Noveria was 'technically' not part of Citadel space, but the Council had plenty of arrangements, privilages, and concerns regardless.

Yes, and the US has lots of nifty economic arrangements with Japan, UK, Canada, and several other countries. You wouldn't say they're part of the US, though, would you?

Strong economic ties =/= the same state.

The ties between the research worlds and their species go far beyond simply economic.

Given the fact that they don't follow Citadel law and are run by corporations I fail to see how.