11 réponses à ce sujet

[big420mac]

Read the title. I don't know how much appreciation they have received for all the free DLC, but they deserve every bit of it and more. I borrowed this game to a friend and after finally receiving it, I see "New Content Available" on the menu. I press it and behold a slew of free DLC. The DLC I do have to pay for is incredibly cheap. That is just awesome. Not only do you guys make awesome games but you also support them after launch. Bioware is simply the best.

[Stanley Woo]

scyphozoa wrote...
to the op, it is very nice to see someone genuinely express their thanks and gratitude for bioware.

Indeed it is. OP, thanks for the kind words.

[Stanley Woo]

bjdbwea wrote...
Yeah, indeed. It is also understandable that everyone likes kind words. However, it would also be nice if BioWare employees would reply to threads containing criticism too, now and then.

We do, but there are only so many demands-phrased-as-suggestions we can listen to, and only so many "good ideas" we can take, and only so many ways we can politely disagree with people. It's really easy to whinge and moan about all the stuff you don't like about a product, and people do it all the time. The internet makes it super-simple to make mountains out of molehills, to declare oneself an authority representing the voice of thousands of others, and to present one's preference as if it were undeniable fact.

Some folks simply don't know how to present criticism in a constructive manner, and don't believe that we could ever, in good faith, disagree with their assessment of the game. So yes, we do reply to threads containing criticism. We have folks in Marketing and on the dev team and/or patch team who have made frequent forays into the various Tech Support forums, we have gameplay designers asking people's opinions on specific systems, we have folks on our writing and design teams interacting with folks talking about story and characters, and we have the rovers like me and Priestly participating in threads discussing our community, our company, our games, and other things in general.

Just because we don't respond to ALL post in ALL threads, or answer ALL questions to EVERYONE'S satisfaaction, doesn't mean we don't participate. We can't even begin to address everyone's concerns because this community is so large and some of the issues are mutually exclusive. But we do what we can.

[Stanley Woo]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Man this thread was such utter fail from the moment I saw the title in the forum list....its empty vacuous threads like this that make the people over at Bioware go

"hey look! They still think we're great even after all the incredible shortcomings our so-called amazing "sequel" had and all the DLC BS weve given them! ... Hooraaayz full steam ahead captain!"

Seriously, enough with these blind "I love Bioware" threads, because there is little reason to do so with everything they have been doing since after ME1.

You would prefer us to get depressed with all the critique threads rather than let some people express their sincere enjoyment of what we do? Everyone has to agree with you that we don't deserve praise as long as you don't like what we do?

How about "hey, look! Some people appreciate something that I've spent the last two years working on and poured my heart and soul and a lot of sleepless nights into! Despite the shortcomings I see and all the flak we've gotten and the controversy surrounding DLC, we've still put out an amazing product that we should be proud of!"

Haters gotta hate, I know that, but the opposite also holds true. Love is not always blind, just as hate is not always unjustified. That big giant space in between love and hate, BiancoAngelo7? That's everyone else between you and the "blind lovers" out there, so if you want us to take the haters (or "conscientious objectors" or "realists" or "not fanbois") seriously, you're going to have to accept that a) you're not the voice of authority here, and some folks will disagree with you.

[Stanley Woo]

I am aware that sometimes, people just get so caught up in something they're really passionate about, they come across as more hostile or more fawning than they intend to. But far too many people are extremely confrontational with folks that don't agree with them. the "troll vs. fanboi" "debate" is a perfect example of this. If you have issues with the game, anyone who expresses positive comments is labeled a "fanboi," and if you are a big fan of the game, anyone who expresses criticisms is labeled a "troll." That's a terrible way to convince people you're worth listening to, let alone a way to convince the folks at BioWare who make the decisions to listen to you.



You don't have to "know how to create, market, promote, and support a video game" to express positive or negative opinions, but it helps to have an idea of how games are made so you can understand us when we say things like a certain thing was "cut for time" or why we can't simply change or add anything in the time during release candidates, certification, gold, and manufacturing. but even if you don't know any of it, simply "being excellent to each other" will help in keeping the lines of communication open (both within the community and between fan and developer). And really, isn't that what we all want anyway?

[Stanley Woo]

bjdbwea wrote...

I have read many critical posts (and I've written some too), concerning the story, characters, as well as gameplay issues in ME 2. Unfortunately I must say I have seen almost no constructive reply from anyone at BioWare. Maybe I've just overlooked them, but I don't think so. It was either "thank you" posts when someone defended the developers, or "too bad you didn't like it, but so what" posts. (I have to exclude the technical support people from this, they have been quite forthcoming).

Maybe you missed all the discussions that Christina Norman, Patrick Weekes, and even Preston Watamaniuk got involved in before ME2 was released. Post-release, it's all done and not going to change. Pre-release, there's still some wiggle room so there's lots of discussion.

Maybe the forums are just too big and, as you say, too filled with people who don't know how to discuss properly. And of course there's always the issue that the employees aren't allowed to speak as openly as they or the players might want. It is still a bit disappointing though. Especially because we both know, that as soon as ME 3 is around the corner, we will suddenly see a sharp increase in developer posts, but unfortunately they will still largely ignore any criticism of the previous game.

Will they? If I recall correctly, our Mass Effect team took a lot of the criticisms of ME1 and used them to develop ME2. I don't know if you noticed the slight differences in both games' conversation system, combat system, controls, vehicles, the way weapons worked. One would think that we changed quite a bit in ME2 as the result of the criticisms our community (and others) had about the first game.

So yes, I suppose they will largely ignore any criticism of the previous game, if by "ignore" you mean, listen to, consider, and use it to make the next game better for as many people as we can. You "know" the criticisms will get ignored, but in your desire to stamp your feet and cross your arms, you apparently didn't pay attention when what you "know" is incorrect.

I think by now you at BioWare know what the main criticisms have been. Obviously you can't respond whenever a point is raised again. But replying at least once would have been enough, any statement would soon enough be known to everyone. So far, it seems like many issues are simply ignored. That may be the current policy, but it's not a good policy. With the MMO players you will have to deal with, this kind of non-communication will not work in any case.

I'm pretty sure folks knew we'd listened to the criticisms when Mass Effect 2 came out. In fact, we got a lot of flak over why we changed certain things. Some folks didn't seem to like our response of "because that's what the community was clamouring for all along." As for communication, I hope you don't think that you are somehow "deserving" of regular updates whenever you comment on something. I mean, the forums would get pretty unwieldy and nothing would ever get done if we had to update every single person (or group of people) who wanted to know how things are going.

I'm sure you could point to specific instances of criticisms being "ignored," but I could then point to specific places where they weren't. Well, maybe I'd be able to. Like you said, we can't be as open and forthcoming with information as you can. But I'm curious: with everything we've done and said in these forums, in interviews, at conventions and trade shows, what precisely do you think is being "ignored?" If anything, I think we're too open and honest sometimes.

[Stanley Woo]

Not "firing back, PARAGON87. I'm rather enjoying the discussion bjdbwea and I are having, and I hope it's enlightening to others as well who may not have gotten such frank and honest communication with game developers (or any other big company) before.

bjdbwea wrote...
I was absolutely sure ME 2 would be just as amazing. I know many people think it is, and I don't think my opinion is more important than theirs, but for me it was a disappointment.

Yes, that was kinda the flak that we got. "It's too different." Even though the game playd faster, it was more exciting, more immediate, and had fewer stoppages in the story like the hours and hours walking around the Citadel in ME1. Believe me, I shared many of the same reactions when I frst started working on it, but once the game got to a certain point in development, I made myself some Kool-Aid and realized, hey wait a minute, this is actually WAY more fun than I originally gave it credit for!

I think the time to discuss these things if you were so inclined would be now, for we both know that ME 3 is already in development. Later it will again all be "done and not going to change".

And there will come a time, between now and when the game is released, when devs will be very active in these forums again, don't you fret. We're not coming to the community to START the game, because we have a whole host of game development professionals who are paid to do just that, but once things get rolling and we have things that maybe we'd like some input on, or that we'd like to throw out there to see what kind of reaction we'll get.

I don't think people who complained about some things, wanted to see them removed completely. I think we both know that some things were cut due to time constraints, and others were changed significantly because it helped to reduce development time, others again to draw in many new players (nothing wrong with that, but it lead to some disappointing developments). I believe you that some things were changed because of fan feedback too, but for the most part, I actually believe that this is a bit of a convenient excuse. With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that the same people who put so much effort and care into ME 1, to make it a milestone in gaming history, would think that ME 2 is overall an improvement. Maybe they acknowledge that it's an improvement as far as sales numbers are concerned, but not as far as "RPG" and "telling a story" are concerned - the two things BioWare has always been renowned and admired for.

Right, but the only way we can measure success in this business is in sales numbers. Making something "more of an RPG" or "telling a better story" doesn't pay the bills or give you geek cred at the game developer mixers. Getting "more sales" DEFINITELY gets you that cred. Just like at whatever job you work, you're not likely to get a raise or promotion because you're "such a nice guy" or are "diligent about recycling." No, you get that raise and/or promotion because you made the numbers look good, either by bringing in more sales or scoring higher on performance evaluations or filing more Q-45b forms or having a higher customer satisfaction rating. Our job is to make games, and no matter how much we might want to spend another 1500 years crafting the perfect RPG, skyrocketing development costs and greater competition in the market means trying to do as much as you can in as little time as you can. And for us, it means doing all that while not compromising on our commitment to quality or our dedication to our fans.

Of course I don't expect to be the center of your attention, and I laugh about the accusation, which of course I know you didn't mean seriously.

Of course not. i use humour, sarcasm and good-natured ribbing to build a rapport with the strangers I talk to on-line. Makes me seem like less of a banhammer-wielding monster.

[Stanley Woo]

bjdbwea wrote...

I for one actually liked the "slower" pace in ME 1, I liked freely walking around the Citadel, and I didn't see any "stoppages" in the story besides the ones I chose when doing side quests and exploration. And I don't need my games more "immediate" either. Was BG 2 "immediate"? Not really. Still it's considered your best game, at least by me, and by many others too. I hope I'm not too blunt, but it feels as if you're abandoning your old fans, whereas ME 1 (already!) was a very good compromise between action and RPG. That's of course only my personal opinion, and this is starting to swing away from the initial discussion. As I said, I could list my complaints here, but that would go too far.

And that's fair. But generally, many people who were not you complained a lot, and loudly, on the forums about how to make ME2 better. We took a lot of it into account when making ME2, so ME2 is necessarily a bit different. Now that we've made 2 games, and hopefully figured out where we want to go with it or what kind of game we're making, the "differences" in future ME products will likely not be as pronounced as they were between 1 and 2. We're not abandoning anyone. We do a lot to ensure the game is still enjoyable to folks who prefer a bit of a slower RPG, but we can only do so much when we're also trying to attract new players and those we want to introduce RPGs to. We've had lots of FPS and TPS fans tell us this was their first RPG, and how much they loved it!

Unfortunately, nostalgia is a double-edged sword. If everything else were the same as in 1997, then another BG-type game might be possible. But just as it's not 1997 anymore, and BioWare isn't a 100-man company anymore, so too our games are going to be not the same as they were in 1997. Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.

My original point - that there's very little communication - still stands. It's nice to have gotten some quite long replies from you here, but it doesn't change the fact. Even if you at BioWare think that one thing or another is the correct way to go, it would be nice to hear the reasons. That's not a demand, just a sentiment, that I think everyone who's voiced criticism shares.

Sorry, but we're not always going to be able to tell you why something has changed or been cut or added, or why we even made X or Y decision. Ultimately, they're business decisions, and unless you have some kind of stake in the business, you ultimately don't need to know. We do try to tell you what we can, though, either through interviews and features on websites and print magazines, as announcements ont he website, or through conversation with developers.

For a customer, the worst thing a changed feature can mean is "I have to get used to something different" or "I don't like this new feature." For a company, that same change could mean thousands of dollars saved in development costs, hundreds of man-hours saved in system interaction bugs, or millions of dollars more in profit. So you'll have to cut companies a tiny bit of slack if they can't, don't or won't tell you the specifics of why.

Can I interpret that as confirmation that some at BioWare do share my opinion, that ME 2 was actually not an improvement over ME 1 as a game? No, you don't have to answer that of course.

You can interpret it however you like. I can't speak for anyone who's not me. Everyone's got their opinions, and I don't pretend that mine is the right one, the most popular one, or the only one.

I completely understand that you only exist as a company because - and as long - you are able to make money. Yet back in the days when you were independent, you would push back the release date if you weren't quite satisfied yet. And in the end, as far as I know, it was still profitable. I remember this even happened with KotoR 1, and I can imagine that it must have been hard to persuade LucasArts of the necessity. It goes without saying that this can not be done indefinitely, but beyond my personal opinion on some things, it seems obvious enough that numerous changes in ME 2 were due to a publisher who set an unchangeable release date.

Again, you can interpret hoever you like. This is not something that I can speak to.

I find this worrying. So while, as I said, I completely understand the need to make money, back in the days BioWare stood for more, they had a different attitude. A vision, so to speak, always aiming higher. I know this is an idealistic view, but the matter of the fact is that you (BioWare) had this view.

Oh, I'm sure you'll find we haven't changed very much at all in some ways. Things work just a little bit differently now that we are part of a larger organization. We had a different attitude? Sure we did. We no longer have to work ourselves to death to achieve our goals. A vision? Unchanged. But "stood for more?" I dunno about that. What exactly did we "stand for?"

In any case, even saying "sorry, this and that had to be cut because of
time", would be more satisfying than seeing criticisms ignored. At least
we would know which features or characters still matter, and might be
better in ME 3, and which ones were cut/changed for other reasons.

I can't ever promise you that each and every criticism someone brings up is going to be addressed, least of all to their satisfaction. I can't even promise that we'll say anything you want to hear. I can promise, however, that we love our community and enjoy their feedback. So I wouldn't be surprised to see developers interacting with the community once again when we get to a certain stage of development. At the very least, you have people like Chris Preislty and me to abuse in the meantime.

[Stanley Woo]

Ecael wrote...

Question to Stan: If someone does stumble upon the actual reason (either by guessing or research) for a major design change, are you allowed to further elaborate on it, confirm it, or do you have to hold back?

If I'm not at liberty to discuss something, what makes you think I'd be at liberty to discuss it if someone guesses correctly? Besides the strange double-standard there, the average forumite likely wouldn't know whether his guess or research was correct unless we confirmed it, right? So if I can't talk about it, that person wouldn't be able to get confirmation!

Wheels within wheels, Ecael...

[Stanley Woo]

Ecael wrote...

That's... true. Even so, there are a lot of unanswered questions with the current direction of Mass Effect (not that I'm complaining with the current trend), and it doesn't seem right to accuse BioWare of the worst when trying to find a reason why - for example, the idea that they're "abandoning their fans" or "targeting the lowest common denominator".

Opinions like that will crop up with every new release. I personally have heard the "BioWare is abandoning their fans" or "they're betraying the fans that made them successful/popular," as if BioWare ever stopped listening to its fans. Hardcore RPG is a niche within a niche, and that's really tough to cater to when you get bigger as a company and want to attract new players from elsewhere on the gamer spectrum. So yes, many hardcore RPG folks consider us to have "abondoned" them because we're no longer catering to just them, and that we're "catering to the lowest common denominator" because shooters are far more mainstream and tend to skew younger, higher energy, and more verbose in forums and voice chat. Hardcore RPGers traditionally consider shooters to be the domain of the less-complex (ie. simplistic) consoles and the less literary/intellectual action-game enthusiasts (ie. FPS kiddies) who gravitate towards them.

People like to complain on the internet. it's fast, easy, and completely anonymous. And if there's someone official there to actually listen, all the more reason to complain--often and loudly--about the bugs or the direction or whatever else you don't like about the game. After all, a tiny chance the issue will be heard and get fixed is better than no chance at all, right?

[Stanley Woo]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Interesting how this or picture spam is the usual response of folks who prefer the ME2 characters.

And you say I am dismissive of people's opinions. Don't worry, Nozybidaj, you won't have to worry about me responding to your comments or opinions with "dismissive" posts anymore. Thank you.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 17 mai 2010 - 11:22 .

[Stanley Woo]

Draxinum wrote...

Stanley, I'd love a reply to this quick sentiment:

I believe many at BioWare believe this but do not want to make the company look bad, I just want someone from BioWare that states that ME3 will not be released until the concluding chapter is just as amazing as ME1

No can promise you that you will, without a doubt, feel a certain way in response to a certain stimulus. there's no way we could possibly know what flips on that "OMG THIS IS AWESOME!" switch in your brain, and there's no way we could possibly tailor the game to fit one person's (or only a few people's) specific preferences.

What we can try and do is do something that we think is totally awesome and hope that other people agree with us. That's what the creative process is all about--making something you like and hoping that others will also like it.