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Bioware is the best.


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#226
Ecael

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Icinix wrote...

Ecael wrote...

mellors wrote...

Bioware is easily one of the best developers in gaming, ever since they started really. Have they screwed up on occasion? Sure, but they are one of the few companies where you can look through their catalogue and see only 4 and 5 star rated games, all of which have both Bioware classic traits and a unique feel with new ideas that some like and some do not.

BioWare's definitely up there with Valve, Rockstar North, Blizzard and Nintendo.


Used to have Westwood in there too. (Sniffle) I really miss those guys.

Westwood has gone the way of the Dodo bird, sadly.

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#227
Icinix

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I know. But I like to pretend they're still here.



:-(

Lords of the Realm, BladeRunner, and all those C&C games before the dissolvement of WestWood.



I have to go and cry alone somewhere now.


#228
mellors

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They live on in our hearts (and our dosboxes :P)

#229
KitsuneRommel

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Icinix wrote...

I know. But I like to pretend they're still here.

:-(
Lords of the Realm, BladeRunner, and all those C&C games before the dissolvement of WestWood.

I have to go and cry alone somewhere now.


BladeRunner! 13 possible endings wasn't it?
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LOL at GameSpot giving it 6.0.

#230
Icinix

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LOL. Yeah. Westwood never really got any critical acclaim for what they did, but I honestly do believe if they had been formed a few years ago, and brought out games like Blade Runner today, the reviews would paint a very different story. It was still so early in the computer game world, so many good genres / styles that came and went without a flutter on the market.


#231
bjdbwea

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Now that we've made 2 games, and hopefully figured out where we want to go with it or what kind of game we're making, the "differences" in future ME products will likely not be as pronounced as they were between 1 and 2. We're not abandoning anyone. We do a lot to ensure the game is still enjoyable to folks who prefer a bit of a slower RPG, but we can only do so much when we're also trying to attract new players and those we want to introduce RPGs to. We've had lots of FPS and TPS fans tell us this was their first RPG, and how much they loved it!


Well, that does sound encouraging. Somewhat. I hope then that ME 3 will a bit closer to ME 1. I can only speak for myself of course, but as an RPG player I don't think you'd get much money from me for ME 3 if it stays like ME 2. I would probably wait until the price drops, or buy the game second-hand. It's a matter of principle just as much as me simply not "needing" a game like this all that much. I looked forward to ME 2 a lot, but had I known how it would turn out, I already could've and probably would've waited.

You certainly noticed that there now are many complaints too, often saying you went too far in simplifying the game for the shooter fans. So here's hoping a better balance will be found next time.

I have say though, you could always have improved the combat aspect, and still told a story of the quality from ME 1. These things are not mutually exclusive, except if you want to admit to thinking your new audience has a short attention span, is easily confused, and can't appreciate grand stories. But somehow I doubt you would say that. ;)

Stanley Woo wrote...

Unfortunately, nostalgia is a double-edged sword. If everything else were the same as in 1997, then another BG-type game might be possible. But just as it's not 1997 anymore, and BioWare isn't a 100-man company anymore, so too our games are going to be not the same as they were in 1997. Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.


Yes, of course. Actually, BG 2 and ME 1 are my favourite games ever. Both very different, but I enjoyed both a lot, more than any other game. ME 1 was new and great, but in many aspects ME 2 was a step back. Again, of course you know the main criticisms.

Stanley Woo wrote...

Oh, I'm sure you'll find we haven't changed very much at all in some ways. Things work just a little bit differently now that we are part of a larger organization. We had a different attitude? Sure we did. We no longer have to work ourselves to death to achieve our goals. A vision? Unchanged. But "stood for more?" I dunno about that. What exactly did we "stand for?"


A strive for perfection. Many companies produce games, but nearly all BioWare games were pieces of art, and that was your intention. It wasn't just a product. You went the extra mile, you polished, you implemented content that wasn't strictly necessary (and that some players might never see), you didn't shy away from implementing stuff that meant more work. Just one example: In ME 1 you could do missions in any order, you could re-visit most places, and often things were a bit different, depending on your previous actions. In ME 2 doors close behind you at every second step, most areas are completely static, levels are very linear, and you can't go back anywhere once you've done the mission.

Basically, at every third corner in ME 2, it is visible that time constraints were a major consideration. The game still works, of course, but the attention to details, the going the extra mile, it just isn't there like it was in previous BioWare games. As I said before, sometimes you would even push back the release date - and still, importantly, made a profit, for all I know. I understand that it's not your decision anymore, but you should know that the effect is quite visible, and unfortunately detrimental to the quality of your games.

That's how I see it anyway. I'm realistic enough to know that you'll never become the company again that you once were, and my lamenting on a forum is completely irrelevant, but that's my answer to your question anyway.

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can't ever promise you that each and every criticism someone brings up is going to be addressed, least of all to their satisfaction. I can't even promise that we'll say anything you want to hear. I can promise, however, that we love our community and enjoy their feedback. So I wouldn't be surprised to see developers interacting with the community once again when we get to a certain stage of development. At the very least, you have people like Chris Priestly and me to abuse in the meantime. :P


I wonder though, to whom will they listen... And will they answer some of our questions?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 mai 2010 - 04:42 .


#232
Draxinum

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Stanley, I'd love a reply to this quick sentiment:



I believe in all the technical changes you made (except maybe that horrible planet scanner)



However the story and the way it was presented, while it was high quality, was nowhere near omgamazingME1...which you may remember was considered "the best story told in a video game, ever"



In ME1, right before Virmire, the story takes off into this unbelievable action and epic adventure set in an amazing storyline, i have never experieced anything like it and am starting to worry I never will



I believe many at BioWare believe this but do not want to make the company look bad, I just want someone from BioWare that states that ME3 will not be released until the concluding chapter is just as amazing as ME1

#233
Onyx Jaguar

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I know. But I like to pretend they're still here.

:-(
Lords of the Realm, BladeRunner, and all those C&C games before the dissolvement of WestWood.

I have to go and cry alone somewhere now.


BladeRunner! 13 possible endings wasn't it?
Image IPB

LOL at GameSpot giving it 6.0.


They also gave Sim City 2000 a 7.4

ANd speaking of Dead EA owned companies, Looking Glass, Origin, Bullfrog, (Maxis), Pandemic (that was self inflicted really).  FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

#234
CodeMyster

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Careful Stanley Woo you'll get carpal tunnel syndrome :D

#235
bjdbwea

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Draxinum wrote...

I believe many at BioWare believe this but do not want to make the company look bad, I just want someone from BioWare that states that ME3 will not be released until the concluding chapter is just as amazing as ME1.


You would have to ask EA for that, and somehow I doubt they'd give you that guarantee. As I said before, BioWare could push back the release date as long as they were independent, and it was one reason their games were always close to perfection within their respective scope, but it's not their decision anymore. And you heard it from Mr. Woo himself, that no BioWare employee could speak about - let alone against - this openly.

#236
Stanley Woo

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Draxinum wrote...

Stanley, I'd love a reply to this quick sentiment:

I believe many at BioWare believe this but do not want to make the company look bad, I just want someone from BioWare that states that ME3 will not be released until the concluding chapter is just as amazing as ME1

No can promise you that you will, without a doubt, feel a certain way in response to a certain stimulus. there's no way we could possibly know what flips on that "OMG THIS IS AWESOME!" switch in your brain, and there's no way we could possibly tailor the game to fit one person's (or only a few people's) specific preferences.

What we can try and do is do something that we think is totally awesome and hope that other people agree with us. That's what the creative process is all about--making something you like and hoping that others will also like it.

#237
Ecael

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Stanley Woo wrote...

No can promise you that you will, without a doubt, feel a certain way in response to a certain stimulus. there's no way we could possibly know what flips on that "OMG THIS IS AWESOME!" switch in your brain, and there's no way we could possibly tailor the game to fit one person's (or only a few people's) specific preferences.

What we can try and do is do something that we think is totally awesome and hope that other people agree with us. That's what the creative process is all about--making something you like and hoping that others will also like it.

I hope people take your response with more than a grain of salt, Stan.

It's one thing to accuse EA of dictating every single thing to BioWare and stifling their creativity (and saying that they only care about sales), but then it's another thing to accuse the moderators of not listening while the same people dictate every single thing they want from BioWare (and then threaten not to buy the game).

:innocent:

#238
bjdbwea

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Stanley Woo wrote...

What we can try and do is do something that we think is totally awesome and hope that other people agree with us. That's what the creative process is all about--making something you like and hoping that others will also like it.


With all due respect, I think ME 2 would have been very different if that were the case. I simply can not believe that the same people who created BG 2, KotoR 1, ME 1, would believe that ME 2 is the next logical step of evolution.

No, the demand to appeal to a certain kind of new audience is very obvious throughout the game. That was the preset above all, but I do believe that BioWare - as always - tried to do their best within it.

How well that strategy worked out is something you will have consider, seeing how the sales numbers don't seem to indicate much success in drawing in that audience.

#239
spacehamsterZH

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bjdbwea wrote...

No, the demand to appeal to a certain kind of new audience is very obvious throughout the game.


No, it's not. As someone who actually plays shooters (unlike you, obviously), I don't feel this way at all. And no matter how many times people with Liara avatars keep chanting the "ME2 is a shooter and tries to suck up to the Call of Poopy crowd" mantra, it won't become any more true. Shooters don't play anything like ME2, and only people who don't play shooters and thus don't know anything about them think ME2 has anything in common with them other than pointing at targets and pulling the trigger and the admittedly retarded insertion of an ammo system.

*SIGH*

Modifié par spacehamsterZH, 19 mai 2010 - 08:53 .


#240
SpectreSeven

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I find it annoying how those idiots who whined about not enough DLC with ME1 now whine about too much ME2 DLC. Sheesh...

#241
TMZuk

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

When BG was mentioned earlier, and it was said: You can't make a game like BG today, I'd say Project Red proved that to be a lie with The Witcher.


I'm guessing The Witcher is not using the AD&D rules like BG is. That's the biggest problem I have with BG.


It is not, but in all honesty, I could care less what rules an RPG uses, as long as they are usable. The story, the setting and the interactions is what matters. That being said, I agree it is hard to find something more silly than AD&D 2nd edition. :lol: I did however, very much enjoy that BG did not made your character so ridiculously powerfull that it had to be nerfed for BG2. The transition between the games was smooth and natural.

#242
bjdbwea

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

No, it's not. As someone who actually plays shooters (unlike you, obviously), I don't feel this way at all. And no matter how many times people with Liara avatars keep chanting the "ME2 is a shooter and tries to suck up to the Call of Poopy crowd" mantra, it won't become any more true. Shooters don't play anything like ME2, and only people who don't play shooters and thus don't know anything about them think ME2 has anything in common with them other than pointing at targets and pulling the trigger and the admittedly retarded insertion of an ammo system.


Read more carefully next time? I didn't say that the game turned out to be a great shooter. In fact, I suspect that the sales numbers were less than expected because the game still wasn't changed enough to draw in the pure shooter fans. I only hope BioWare will not (be forced to) make the game even more appealing to them next time.

You are right though, I for one don't care in the least about "real" shooters. I do like Fallout 3 for example, but of course that one implements a good combination of shooting and RPG.

Oh and by the way, I don't know what Liara has to do with this.

#243
Ecael

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bjdbwea wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

What we can try and do is do something that we think is totally awesome and hope that other people agree with us. That's what the creative process is all about--making something you like and hoping that others will also like it.


With all due respect, I think ME 2 would have been very different if that were the case. I simply can not believe that the same people who created BG 2, KotoR 1, ME 1, would believe that ME 2 is the next logical step of evolution.

No, the demand to appeal to a certain kind of new audience is very obvious throughout the game. That was the preset above all, but I do believe that BioWare - as always - tried to do their best within it.

How well that strategy worked out is something you will have consider, seeing how the sales numbers don't seem to indicate much success in drawing in that audience.

Why is it that whenever someone says "With all due respect"...

Never mind.

:P

You and Stanley may be referring to different things, though. The gameplay experience is essentially the same - it's still an RPG through and through, and it's still a cover-based third-person shooter like it always was.

However, when saying that they're trying to appeal to a different audience, the quality of the story doesn't and can't factor into that argument - only the gameplay does. After all, this isn't the best way to advertise to people who like third-person shooters:

"BioWare: OUR STORY SUCKS! People who like shooters, buy our games! Brilliant!"

-An RPG can have a terrible story - but it's still an RPG, and will still draw RPG fans.
-A TPS can have a terrible story - but it's still a TPS, and will still draw TPS fans.
-Pointing out plot holes or story flaws in a book doesn't mean it's not a book anymore (Harry Potter)

In addition, the people who deal with the gameplay and the people who write the story are entirely separate, even if some aspects will affect the other (heat sinks, for example). Many of them worked on both games, and a few of the writers have worked on several BioWare projects before that (Drew Karpyshyn, Lukas Kristjanson, Mac Walters, etc.). If all the writers were affected by EA somehow, then Dragon Age would have the same story structure as Mass Effect 2. (Also, that suggests Microsoft is a better and more lenient publisher than EA)

I just can't see EA telling BioWare to purposely ruin the story or gameplay to appeal to a larger crowd. If they wanted to draw much, much higher sales from ME2 than ME1 than it is currently, then they would include online deathmatch multiplayer with matchmaking. It's the only way to appeal to the shooter fans.

#244
cachx

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With all due respect, I think ME 2 would have been very different if
that were the case. I simply can not believe that the same people who
created BG 2, KotoR 1, ME 1, would believe that ME 2 is the next logical
step of evolution.
No, the demand to appeal to a certain kind
of new audience is very obvious throughout the game. That was the preset
above all, but I do believe that BioWare - as always - tried to do
their best within it.


At least is a step. Maybe die-hard fans don't mind buying the same game over and over. I have been a fan of Bioware since Kotor1 but never bothered with the "community" until recently, I was actually shocked to hear that people liked the Mako, and the inventory, the elevators and so on. From "outside" it looked like those elements were universally not liked and I was not suprised that they striped that away from ME2.

How well that strategy worked out is
something you will have consider, seeing how the sales numbers don't
seem to indicate much success in drawing in that audience.


Sales info is a dodgy subject, normal folks like you and me get second hand information at best. And when numbers are being thrown around (like 2 millions shipped or 1.6 millions sold) we don't really know what's behind them. Considering how the DLC mill is working and that ME3 is underway I would say it's a success. Maybe not GTAIV levels of success but then again only very few games get there...

#245
bjdbwea

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Ecael wrote...

However, when saying that they're trying to appeal to a different audience, the quality of the story doesn't and can't factor into that argument - only the gameplay does.


No, I have to disagree. We're now getting into the details after all, but so be it. I for one wouldn't care if the gameplay would be as simple as Pong. It's the story I loved about ME 1, and it's the story that's most important to me in ME 2. Unfortunately, it can't live up to ME 1 at all. Only my opinion of course, all the arguments should be well known by now.

Ecael wrote...

I just can't see EA telling BioWare to purposely ruin the story or gameplay to appeal to a larger crowd.


Purposely? Of course not. But there are two things I'm very sure they did:

a) Imposed a time frame that was just not sufficient. Many elements in ME 2 suffered in effect, and the story is one them.

B) Told the developers to draw in shooter fans and casual gamers. Of course I can't blame EA for doing what they always do and what they exist for - trying to maximize profits - but one effect was for the story to be cut into many shorter, unrelated pieces to make it more palatable. It had to be, as Mr. Woo himself said earlier in this thread, more "immediate". That's usually a sure way to make it more superficial and less deep as well, and this indeed happened in ME 2.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 mai 2010 - 09:26 .


#246
spacehamsterZH

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bjdbwea wrote...

Read more carefully next time? I didn't say that the game turned out to be a great shooter.


I didn't say anything about quality. That's another fallacy of your argument, but nevermind.

You are right though, I for one don't care in the least about "real" shooters.


i.e. you don't really know what a shooter is, leading to your complete misinterpretation of the gameplay changes, yet you somehow state your completely subjective impression that the game tries to appeal to "the shooter crowd" as fact. If it feels too much like an action game to you, fair enough. You don't like it. Nobody can tell you otherwise. But claiming the game tries to fit into a genre that you admit you know very little about and making assumptions about development and marketing decisions behind that is retarded.

#247
TMZuk

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Stanley Woo wrote...
Unfortunately, nostalgia is a double-edged sword. If everything else were the same as in 1997, then another BG-type game might be possible. But just as it's not 1997 anymore, and BioWare isn't a 100-man company anymore, so too our games are going to be not the same as they were in 1997. Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.


Sorry for butting in here, but having a chance at asking you this is to good, even if you may not reply. :o

What do you mean that a BG-type of game isn't possible?

If you mean that you cannot make slowpaced heavy RPG's anymore, I already pointed out elsewhere in this thread that Project Red proved you wrong with The Witcher. They managed to produce a very long, involving, dark fantasy RPG, which became a major hit, selling millions of copies worldwide, and which... in spite of being a very RP heavy, slowpaced game, developed exclusively for PC... none the less became a succes on the various consoles, after being converted and released for those.

But perhaps you were referring to something else, when you said it wasn't possible to make something like BG today? In that case I'm curious as to what and why... :happy:

#248
Ecael

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bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

However, when saying that they're trying to appeal to a different audience, the quality of the story doesn't and can't factor into that argument - only the gameplay does.


No, I have to disagree. We're now getting into the details after all, but so be it. I for one wouldn't care if the gameplay would be as simple as Pong. It's the story I loved about ME 1, and it's the story that's most important to me in ME 2. Unfortunately, it can't live up to ME 1 at all. Only my opinion of course, all the arguments should be well known by now.

You appeal to RPG fans by advertising as an RPG, however. Appealing to the audience solely based on story is like advertising Mass Effect for avid book readers.

The quality of the story affects the quality of the game - that is a definite. But the quality of the story is difficult to advertise on TV or on a website.

Ecael wrote...

I just can't see EA telling BioWare to purposely ruin the story or gameplay to appeal to a larger crowd.


Purposely? Of course not. But there are two things I'm very sure they did:

a) Imposed a time frame that was just not sufficient. Many elements in ME 2 suffered in effect, and the story is one them.

The time frame is also being set by Epic Games and Microsoft, as Unreal Engine 3/3.5 is going to become outdated by 2012, and the lifespan of the X-Box 360 will shorten dramatically just on the announcement that the next X-Box is coming out. Casey Hudson has said that they're trying to finish the trilogy within that lifespan. Are they appealing to the console crowd? Not really, but they do realize that they are a significant portion of people who play Mass Effect.

B) Told the developers to draw in shooter fans and casual gamers. Of course I can't blame EA for doing what they always do and what they exist for - trying to maximize profits - but one effect was for the story to be cut into many shorter, unrelated pieces to make it more palatable. It had to be, as Mr. Woo himself said earlier in this thread, more "immediate". That's usually a sure way to make it more superficial and less deep as well, and this indeed happened in ME 2.

That's assuming Mass Effect 1 didn't already try to draw shooter fans. After all, there's no auto-attack button or turn-based combat in Mass Effect - just shooting with different weapons. As Stanley said, the changes to the game are part of BioWare's creative process and not part of the creative process of a team of executives and shareholders.

Mass Effect can't draw in casual gamers until they have a seamless online multiplayer system that allows you to play a half hour with friends and then stop. Many of the missions in BioWare games aren't casual-friendly, lasting more than an hour or even two hours.

And while "casual" and "shooter" are not mutually exclusive, there are still separate categories of casual shooter and hardcore shooter fans. Hardcore shooter fans may be interested in Mass Effect, but it's likely that they prefer a multiplayer experience as well.

Modifié par Ecael, 19 mai 2010 - 09:38 .


#249
bjdbwea

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

i.e. you don't really know what a shooter is, leading to your complete misinterpretation of the gameplay changes, yet you somehow state your completely subjective impression that the game tries to appeal to "the shooter crowd" as fact. If it feels too much like an action game to you, fair enough. You don't like it. Nobody can tell you otherwise. But claiming the game tries to fit into a genre that you admit you know very little about and making assumptions about development and marketing decisions behind that is retarded.


Read more carefully next time? I know enough, don't you worry. But you also might want to read the rest of the thread. Mr. Woo himself confirmed that they wanted to attract FPS and TPS fans. Of course he wouldn't agree if I said that this lead to some disappointing changes, but the fact remains. If you want to tell him he's wrong about the reasons for development and marketing decisions too, go ahead.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 mai 2010 - 09:44 .


#250
bjdbwea

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Ecael wrote...

You appeal to RPG fans by advertising as an RPG, however. Appealing to the audience solely based on story is like advertising Mass Effect for avid book readers.

The quality of the story affects the quality of the game - that is a definite. But the quality of the story is difficult to advertise on TV or on a website.


And...? I couldn't care less about their advertisements, or any advertisements for that matter. They can say whatever they feel they need to say in those. I do care about the quality of the product.

Ecael wrote...

The time frame is also being set by Epic Games and Microsoft, as Unreal Engine 3/3.5 is going to become outdated by 2012, and the lifespan of the X-Box 360 will shorten dramatically just on the announcement that the next X-Box is coming out. Casey Hudson has said that they're trying to finish the trilogy within that lifespan. Are they appealing to the console crowd? Not really, but they do realize that they are a significant portion of people who play Mass Effect.


And...? While I can understand the wish to minimize development time and maximize profits, why should those reasons concern my view on the quality of the product? As a customer, I have different wishes.

Ecael wrote...

That's assuming Mass Effect 1 didn't already try to draw shooter fans. After all, there's no auto-attack button or turn-based combat in Mass Effect - just shooting with different weapons. As Stanley said, the changes to the game are part of BioWare's creative process and not part of the creative process of a team of executives and shareholders.


Oh, it did, it most certainly did. And I have nothing against it in principle. My point is that ME 1 was already a great balance between shooter parts and RPG. I would have liked more RPG elements, but I didn't really mind that there weren't. I can understand that shooter fans might have wished for changes in combat or better controls, but the matter of the fact is that ME 1 would be just as great with the combat from ME 2. Unfortunately though, there were other changes - as I suspect also due to the fixation on a new audience - that were to the detriment of the quality of the actual game, and especially story.

Ecael wrote...

Mass Effect can't draw in casual gamers until they have a seamless online multiplayer system that allows you to play a half hour with friends and then stop. Many of the missions in BioWare games aren't casual-friendly, lasting more than an hour or even two hours.


Maybe so, then I only hope that ME 3 will not go even further in that aspect. As I said, the sales numbers could indeed indicate that the attempt might have more or less failed.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 mai 2010 - 10:06 .