259 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

Icinix wrote...

I know. But I like to pretend they're still here.

:-(
Lords of the Realm, BladeRunner, and all those C&C games before the dissolvement of WestWood.

I have to go and cry alone somewhere now.

HAHAHA I said lords of the Realm! I meant Lands of Lore! Ahh, what an idiot I am.


Anyway, BioWare is great, I only hope they continue to rise to and exceed the challenges they set themselves every time they release a game.  Of course I'm sure they will, because although Mass Effect 2 went into a slightly different direction to what I personally would have liked, I still loved every single step of the way.

So Kudos to BioWare, for sucking hundreds upon hundreds of hours of my life into awesome games!  May there be many many more hundreds to come!<3

And please if you want to try a different genre as well, I fully support a 'Mass Effect : Privateer' for the market place. Just saying. 

[Onyx Jaguar]

YES

[Ecael]

bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

You appeal to RPG fans by advertising as an RPG, however. Appealing to the audience solely based on story is like advertising Mass Effect for avid book readers.

The quality of the story affects the quality of the game - that is a definite. But the quality of the story is difficult to advertise on TV or on a website.

And...? I couldn't care less about their advertisements, or any advertisements for that matter. They can say whatever they feel they need to say in those. I do care about the quality of the product.

The topic being discussed is what type of crowd BioWare is trying to appeal to, however.

We all care about the quality of the product, despite having different opinions. The last thing I want is Mass Effect 3 to suck when the last 2 games are two of the best games I've ever played, next to Half-Life 1/2 (using a non-BioWare game as comparison).

Ecael wrote...

The time frame is also being set by Epic Games and Microsoft, as Unreal Engine 3/3.5 is going to become outdated by 2012, and the lifespan of the X-Box 360 will shorten dramatically just on the announcement that the next X-Box is coming out. Casey Hudson has said that they're trying to finish the trilogy within that lifespan. Are they appealing to the console crowd? Not really, but they do realize that they are a significant portion of people who play Mass Effect.

And...? While I can understand the wish to minimize development time and maximize profits, why should those reasons concern my view on the quality of the product? As a customer, I have different wishes.

The only other alternative is to end Mass Effect at the second game or take 5 years to develop Mass Effect 3 on a new engine and another console (à la Dragon Age). Both results would make the majority of people very unhappy.

Ecael wrote...

That's assuming Mass Effect 1 didn't already try to draw shooter fans. After all, there's no auto-attack button or turn-based combat in Mass Effect - just shooting with different weapons. As Stanley said, the changes to the game are part of BioWare's creative process and not part of the creative process of a team of executives and shareholders.

Oh, it did, it most certainly did. And I have nothing against it in principle. My point is that ME 1 was already a great balance between shooter parts and RPG. I would have liked more RPG elements, but I didn't really mind that there weren't. I can understand that shooter fans might have wished for changes in combat or better controls, but the matter of the fact is that ME 1 would be just as great with the combat from ME 2. Unfortunately though, there were other changes - as I suspect also due to the fixation on a new audience - that were to the detriment of the quality of the actual game, and especially story.

As many have said though, the majority of people who play Mass Effect are RPG fans, and that's where BioWare gets most of their sales from in the first place. Thus, the creative process will take that very much into consideration. However, while people were expecting a more complex RPG in ME2, the line of thought for BioWare was "how can we make this a simpler RPG to pick up and play?" As a consequence, the shooter elements - which were always in Mass Effect 1 - were much more prominent. The RPG elements are still there - but I wouldn't say that it was removed entirely.

In other words, the goal is not to get shooter fans interested in another shooter, but to get shooter fans interested in an RPG for once - and a single-player game, at that. After all, they want people flocking to buy ALL their games (Dragon Age, The Old Republic) that are unarguably RPGs.

Ecael wrote...

Mass Effect can't draw in casual gamers until they have a seamless online multiplayer system that allows you to play a half hour with friends and then stop. Many of the missions in BioWare games aren't casual-friendly, lasting more than an hour or even two hours.

Maybe so, then I only hope that ME 3 will not go even further in that aspect. As I said, the sales numbers could indeed indicate that the attempt might have more or less failed.

I'm fairly optimistic it won't - if only because I doubt they would try to "un-RPG" it any further. The only way to go from there is up.

As in the words of Shepard:
"I only believe you because I doubt you'd repeat yourself so soon."

(I'd spam a picture of that, but it might be a spoiler if I did...)

[SithLordExarKun]

bjdbwea wrote...

Ecael wrote...

You appeal to RPG fans by advertising as an RPG, however. Appealing to the audience solely based on story is like advertising Mass Effect for avid book readers.

The quality of the story affects the quality of the game - that is a definite. But the quality of the story is difficult to advertise on TV or on a website.

And...? I couldn't care less about their advertisements, or any advertisements for that matter. They can say whatever they feel they need to say in those. I do care about the quality of the product.

Ecael wrote...

The time frame is also being set by Epic Games and Microsoft, as Unreal Engine 3/3.5 is going to become outdated by 2012, and the lifespan of the X-Box 360 will shorten dramatically just on the announcement that the next X-Box is coming out. Casey Hudson has said that they're trying to finish the trilogy within that lifespan. Are they appealing to the console crowd? Not really, but they do realize that they are a significant portion of people who play Mass Effect.

And...? While I can understand the wish to minimize development time and maximize profits, why should those reasons concern my view on the quality of the product? As a customer, I have different wishes.

Ecael wrote...

That's assuming Mass Effect 1 didn't already try to draw shooter fans. After all, there's no auto-attack button or turn-based combat in Mass Effect - just shooting with different weapons. As Stanley said, the changes to the game are part of BioWare's creative process and not part of the creative process of a team of executives and shareholders.

Oh, it did, it most certainly did. And I have nothing against it in principle. My point is that ME 1 was already a great balance between shooter parts and RPG. I would have liked more RPG elements, but I didn't really mind that there weren't. I can understand that shooter fans might have wished for changes in combat or better controls, but the matter of the fact is that ME 1 would be just as great with the combat from ME 2. Unfortunately though, there were other changes - as I suspect also due to the fixation on a new audience - that were to the detriment of the quality of the actual game, and especially story.

Ecael wrote...

Mass Effect can't draw in casual gamers until they have a seamless online multiplayer system that allows you to play a half hour with friends and then stop. Many of the missions in BioWare games aren't casual-friendly, lasting more than an hour or even two hours.

Maybe so, then I only hope that ME 3 will not go even further in that aspect. As I said, the sales numbers could indeed indicate that the attempt might have more or less failed.

It seems people can't praise bioware with people like you.

[Ecael]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

It seems people can't praise bioware with people like you.

No need to throw any punches, ExarKun. Bjdbwea isn't trying to start an argument, and he does take every part of a discussion into consideration without attacking others.

[spacehamsterZH]

bjdbwea wrote...
Mr. Woo himself confirmed that they wanted to attract FPS and TPS fans. Of course he wouldn't agree if I said that this lead to some disappointing changes, but the fact remains. If you want to tell him he's wrong about the reasons for development and marketing decisions too, go ahead.

He said they wanted to appeal to audiences other than the hardcore RPG crowd (and if you think ME1 was "hardcore" and this is a new idea, then LOL on you) and they had a positive response from shooter fans. You take this to mean that every change you don't like is evidence of Bioware selling out to the shooter fans. And clearly the only thing you really know about this genre and its fans is that you think you're too good for them.

[CShep25]

It's pretty obvious the direction BW needs to take with ME3 when you look at this topic.

I adored ME1; I wouldn't have signed up here, or toiled over a youtube miniseries for a month if I didn't. I was initially blown away by ME2, playing it to death over and over again until it got stale. Then, I left it for a while and comparing it to the first game, the first doubts started creeping in and whenever I played it again, I kept thinking of the disappointment it was compared to the first game. But you know, ME2 is a fantastic game. There was an impossible task of bettering one of the greatest games ever made, and rather than try to tackle that, BW just took it in a different direction. Combat is vastly improved and anyone who thinks that detracts from the game is an idiot (and that's not my opinion, that's just cold hard fact). There were niggling complaints I had, such as the terribly linear and lazy level design, the lack of any platonic conversation options with potential LIs and I did see some missed opportunities for the ME1 stamp of greatness. The derelict reaper could have been one of those spooky Dead Space moments where the team starts hallucinating due to indoctrination. It could have done with that spooky atmosphere that Alan Wake was so successful at. I tried to realise this here myself although if it had been worked into the game, and not the crappy masking attempt with limited dialogue options I suffered with, it would have worked so much better.

The story did not suffer as a result of these subjective discrepencies of mine and I'll admit the tighter gameplay was more efficient if less focused on exploration. It's difficult to get out of the negativity rut though, especially with all these grand community mistakes BW is making with regards to the Bazaar, disproportionate DLC pricing et al. But ME2 is still a solid game with many great improvements over the former albeit with some rather noticeable backsteps.

But I digest. The way things are turning out with the community labelled as troll vs fanboi, the logical step is to bridge the gap half way between ME1 and ME2 to please everybody (or please no one depending on how you want to look at it)

Modifié par CShep25, 20 mai 2010 - 04:25 .

[Ecael]

CShep25 wrote...

the logical step is to bridge the gap half way between ME1 and ME2 to please everybody (or please no one depending on how you want to look at it)

I wouldn't mind either choice.

EA shouldn't be the ones to discourage BioWare's creativity, but neither should the fans. If they see an idea that looks good, they'll use it. But I just don't see how begging them to make the game more like ME1 or ME2 is going to change anything other than how often the developers will visit (which is not very often these days).

If people do nothing but complain, then BioWare will do nothing for them.

[Jade Elf]

CShep25 wrote...

It's pretty obvious the direction BW needs to take with ME3 when you look at this topic.

I adored ME1; I wouldn't have signed up here, or toiled over a youtube miniseries for a month if I didn't. I was initially blown away by ME2, playing it to death over and over again until it got stale. Then, I left it for a while and comparing it to the first game, the first doubts started creeping in and whenever I played it again, I kept thinking of the disappointment it was compared to the first game. But you know, ME2 is a fantastic game. There was an impossible task of bettering one of the greatest games ever made, and rather than try to tackle that, BW just took it in a different direction. Combat is vastly improved and anyone who thinks that detracts from the game is an idiot (and that's not my opinion, that's just cold hard fact). There were niggling complaints I had, such as the terribly linear and lazy level design, the lack of any platonic conversation options with potential LIs and I did see some missed opportunities for the ME1 stamp of greatness. The derelict reaper could have been one of those spooky Dead Space moments where the team starts hallucinating due to indoctrination. It could have done with that spooky atmosphere that Alan Wake was so successful at. I tried to realise this here myself although if it had been worked into the game, and not the crappy masking attempt with limited dialogue options I suffered with, it would have worked so much better.

The story did not suffer as a result of these subjective discrepencies of mine and I'll admit the tighter gameplay was more efficient if less focused on exploration. It's difficult to get out of the negativity rut though, especially with all these grand community mistakes BW is making with regards to the Bazaar, disproportionate DLC pricing et al. But ME2 is still a solid game with many great improvements over the former albeit with some rather noticeable backsteps.

But I digest. The way things are turning out with the community labelled as troll vs fanboi, the logical step is to bridge the gap half way between ME1 and ME2 to please everybody (or please no one depending on how you want to look at it)

Absolutely! I do hope ME3 will have the best of both worlds.

[jonnyblueballs]

They make the best RPGs but i don't care about the downloadable crap you have to pay for. I want my **** to be solid, you know?