259 réponses à ce sujet

[MaaZeus]

I may have been quite vocal about the aspects of ME2 that bother me (compared to ME1) and dont like one bit, (being critical/cynical perfectionist and all) but Bioware has still done fantastic job and deserves every bit of praise about this game as they have got so far. I still keep playing it all the fricking time, and most likely will be a game of the year to me. Thank you Bioware.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 14 mai 2010 - 10:55 .

[Icinix]

WOOOO BIOWARE FTW BABY!!!!!

[Stanley Woo]

bjdbwea wrote...

I have read many critical posts (and I've written some too), concerning the story, characters, as well as gameplay issues in ME 2. Unfortunately I must say I have seen almost no constructive reply from anyone at BioWare. Maybe I've just overlooked them, but I don't think so. It was either "thank you" posts when someone defended the developers, or "too bad you didn't like it, but so what" posts. (I have to exclude the technical support people from this, they have been quite forthcoming).

Maybe you missed all the discussions that Christina Norman, Patrick Weekes, and even Preston Watamaniuk got involved in before ME2 was released. Post-release, it's all done and not going to change. Pre-release, there's still some wiggle room so there's lots of discussion.

Maybe the forums are just too big and, as you say, too filled with people who don't know how to discuss properly. And of course there's always the issue that the employees aren't allowed to speak as openly as they or the players might want. It is still a bit disappointing though. Especially because we both know, that as soon as ME 3 is around the corner, we will suddenly see a sharp increase in developer posts, but unfortunately they will still largely ignore any criticism of the previous game.

Will they? If I recall correctly, our Mass Effect team took a lot of the criticisms of ME1 and used them to develop ME2. I don't know if you noticed the slight differences in both games' conversation system, combat system, controls, vehicles, the way weapons worked. One would think that we changed quite a bit in ME2 as the result of the criticisms our community (and others) had about the first game.

So yes, I suppose they will largely ignore any criticism of the previous game, if by "ignore" you mean, listen to, consider, and use it to make the next game better for as many people as we can. You "know" the criticisms will get ignored, but in your desire to stamp your feet and cross your arms, you apparently didn't pay attention when what you "know" is incorrect.

I think by now you at BioWare know what the main criticisms have been. Obviously you can't respond whenever a point is raised again. But replying at least once would have been enough, any statement would soon enough be known to everyone. So far, it seems like many issues are simply ignored. That may be the current policy, but it's not a good policy. With the MMO players you will have to deal with, this kind of non-communication will not work in any case.

I'm pretty sure folks knew we'd listened to the criticisms when Mass Effect 2 came out. In fact, we got a lot of flak over why we changed certain things. Some folks didn't seem to like our response of "because that's what the community was clamouring for all along." As for communication, I hope you don't think that you are somehow "deserving" of regular updates whenever you comment on something. I mean, the forums would get pretty unwieldy and nothing would ever get done if we had to update every single person (or group of people) who wanted to know how things are going.

I'm sure you could point to specific instances of criticisms being "ignored," but I could then point to specific places where they weren't. Well, maybe I'd be able to. Like you said, we can't be as open and forthcoming with information as you can. But I'm curious: with everything we've done and said in these forums, in interviews, at conventions and trade shows, what precisely do you think is being "ignored?" If anything, I think we're too open and honest sometimes.

[bjdbwea]

Huh, that's a long answer. Thanks for that, and I mean it. Again, I don't expect another answer (I do know your time is limited), but I'll reply to your post nevertheless.

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maybe you missed all the discussions that Christina Norman, Patrick Weekes, and even Preston Watamaniuk got involved in before ME2 was released. Post-release, it's all done and not going to change. Pre-release, there's still some wiggle room so there's lots of discussion.

I missed that indeed. You see, I usually don't read forums or news before release. I simply don't want to see any spoilers. Maybe that was a mistake. Maybe I should have added my voice to those who raised concerns on the old forums, about the direction ME 2 seemed to be going. Maybe it would have made a difference. But I trusted BioWare. I loved every single one of your previous games, BG 2 and ME 1 are my all-time favourite games. I was absolutely sure ME 2 would be just as amazing. I know many people think it is, and I don't think my opinion is more important than theirs, but for me it was a disappointment.

You are of course are under no obligation to communicate at all - and many developers don't either - but I think the time to discuss these things if you were so inclined would be now, for we both know that ME 3 is already in development. Later it will again all be "done and not going to change".

Stanley Woo wrote...

Will they? If I recall correctly, our Mass Effect team took a lot of the criticisms of ME1 and used them to develop ME2. I don't know if you noticed the slight differences in both games' conversation system, combat system, controls, vehicles, the way weapons worked. One would think that we changed quite a bit in ME2 as the result of the criticisms our community (and others) had about the first game.

Yes, I've heard that repeatedly. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but: I don't think people who complained about some things, wanted to see them removed completely. I think we both know that some things were cut due to time constraints, and others were changed significantly because it helped to reduce development time, others again to draw in many new players (nothing wrong with that, but it lead to some disappointing developments). I believe you that some things were changed because of fan feedback too, but for the most part, I actually believe that this is a bit of a convenient excuse. With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that the same people who put so much effort and care into ME 1, to make it a milestone in gaming history, would think that ME 2 is overall an improvement. Maybe they acknowledge that it's an improvement as far as sales numbers are concerned, but not as far as "RPG" and "telling a story" are concerned - the two things BioWare has always been renowned and admired for.

Stanley Woo wrote...

So yes, I suppose they will largely ignore any criticism of the previous game, if by "ignore" you mean, listen to, consider, and use it to make the next game better for as many people as we can. You "know" the criticisms will get ignored, but in your desire to stamp your feet and cross your arms, you apparently didn't pay attention when what you "know" is incorrect.

I certainly hope you will listen and consider. It's encouraging to hear you say so.

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm pretty sure folks knew we'd listened to the criticisms when Mass Effect 2 came out. In fact, we got a lot of flak over why we changed certain things. Some folks didn't seem to like our response of "because that's what the community was clamouring for all along." As for communication, I hope you don't think that you are somehow "deserving" of regular updates whenever you comment on something. I mean, the forums would get pretty unwieldy and nothing would ever get done if we had to update every single person (or group of people) who wanted to know how things are going.

I'm sure you could point to specific instances of criticisms being "ignored," but I could then point to specific places where they weren't. Well, maybe I'd be able to. Like you said, we can't be as open and forthcoming with information as you can. But I'm curious: with everything we've done and said in these forums, in interviews, at conventions and trade shows, what precisely do you think is being "ignored?" If anything, I think we're too open and honest sometimes.

I have to respectfully disagree. Of course I don't expect to be the center of your attention, and I laugh about the accusation, which of course I know you didn't mean seriously. I won't even mention any of my specific complaints here, even though I could be tempted, now that I seem to have your attention for a moment. But I think it wouldn't be appropriate in this thread, and I wouldn't expect an answer right now. You know the most important ones of the things people didn't like. Feel free to answer in the appropriate threads, I would certainly appreciate it.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 mai 2010 - 12:21 .

[MrNose]

Man, this is a "pat BioWare on the back" thread. Don't ruin the festive mood!

[2pac Shakur]

wizardryforever wrote...

Let's take a look at some facts here:
1. Cerberus Network must be downloaded, as in, not included in the game
2. You do not have to pay for it
3. Therefore, Cerberus Network is free DLC

Anyway, I agree that Bioware is an amazing developer, one of my very favorites. Agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

internet access is free because I am not charged money for watching movies and using email

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm pretty sure folks knew we'd listened to the criticisms when Mass Effect 2 came out. In fact, we got a lot of flak over why we changed certain things. Some folks didn't seem to like our response of "because that's what the community was clamouring for all along." As for communication, I hope you don't think that you are somehow "deserving" of regular updates whenever you comment on something. I mean, the forums would get pretty unwieldy and nothing would ever get done if we had to update every single person (or group of people) who wanted to know how things are going.

I'm sure you could point to specific instances of criticisms being "ignored," but I could then point to specific places where they weren't. Well, maybe I'd be able to. Like you said, we can't be as open and forthcoming with information as you can. But I'm curious: with everything we've done and said in these forums, in interviews, at conventions and trade shows, what precisely do you think is being "ignored?" If anything, I think we're too open and honest sometimes.

I have to respectfully disagree. Of course I don't expect to be the center of your attention, and I laugh about the accusation, which of course I know you didn't mean seriously. I won't even mention any of my specific complaints here, even though I could be tempted, now that I seem to have your attention for a moment. But I think it wouldn't be appropriate in this thread, and I wouldn't expect an answer right now. You know the most important ones of the things people didn't like. Feel free to answer in the appropriate threads, I would certainly appreciate it.

I agree that the lines of communication are lacking.  There has been pretty much nada in the way of community interaction since the game launched.  I'm well aware that the ME team has nothing to do with TOR, but if Bioware feels that the level of communication and interaction currently given to the forum and the fans is not only adequate, but some how seen as too open, well they got another thing coming once they launch an MMO and get the crowd a game of that genre and size is going to draw. 

I would think BW would be looking at these forums and the social site as a sort of "training ground" to learn how to properly and adequately communicate with a playerbase prior to that.  Honestly they currently aren't very good at it and there is going to be mistakes and learning experiences along the way.  Mr. Woo's last post is a fair example of that.  If I were BW, I would view these forums today as a great opportunity to go through those growing pains prior to TOR and having to deal with that. 

/shrug Oh well.  It'll be interesting to see if BW maintain's the same philosophies for communication and level of fan interaction once TOR releases, that will be quite the train wreck to watch.

[2pac Shakur]

TOR already has a forum and an active community



and MMOs corrupt all companies eventually. Blizzard was just like Bioware at one point, new kid on the block, made great games, supported fans. But WoW eventually ruined their initiative and dedication. Starcraft 2 took nearly 10 years to make while Blizzard focused on nothing but WoW expansions.

[Nozybidaj]

scyphozoa wrote...

From what I've seen, SWTOR forums have their own "philosophies" and their own team of people working on them. I know they are Bioware, but SWTOR forums are handled much differently than BSN. For instance, BSN is pretty lenient compared to the much stricter moderation on SWTOR forums.

I honestly don't spend much time there aside from catching a random news update.  I actually like the setup of the social site and think its a great avenue for community building and a place for fans to come.  I don't know if TOR will eventually get moved here or not, but I would like to think it will.

That aside BW as a whole I would think certainly has some form of "philosophy" on interacting with the users, and since I am most familiar with the ME teams involvment (or lack there of) with the fans that may color my view, maybe unfairly so.

Of all the criticisms raised on these forums I've seen very few ever addressed.  The ones that were (sex and nudity by our own Mr. Woo and non-removable helmets) I don't think would be viewed as great successes of community relations.  BW as a whole is going to have to learn to deal with and respond to less than favorable threads and criticism and not just pat themselves on the back in the "This is teh greatest game evahhhhh" threads.

People want to know what is going on, and when something bad or unfavorable happens they want to know why.  Sticking your head in the sand or the old "cause I said so" excuse isn't the greatest way to build faith amoung your community. 

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 15 mai 2010 - 12:54 .

[Nozybidaj]

scyphozoa wrote...

Thats not to say all criticism has been addressed by BW devs, but a lot of it has, and most of it was right at launch (3 months ago)

/shrug  I don't seem to recall much in the way of anything ever being addressed, but I suppose the point is kinda not worth arguing over anyway.  BW is gonna do whatever they wanna  do.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Gameplay mechanics are things that you aren't going to see addressed really in the short term, even more so as ME 2 was designed as a console game and balancing issues are not a priority as it is a single player game (still I wish they'd make Adepts useful IMO). This is probably why one of the reasons that you get more information on the DA boards.

[Annihilator27]

scyphozoa wrote...

From what I've seen, SWTOR forums have their own "philosophies" and their own team of people working on them. I know they are Bioware, but SWTOR forums are handled much differently than BSN. For instance, BSN is pretty lenient compared to the much stricter moderation on SWTOR forums.

Im betting they will be moving here closer to launch. Bioware is my fav rpg company. No one is perfect, But damn are they close lol.

[PARAGON87]

Wow, bit of pent-up anger, huh Woo?



Awesome how he stopped sitting around and fired back.



[Enjoys popcorn]

[xDarkicex]

adriano_c wrote...

Nope, bought it new. Cerberus Network's "value" is simply factored into the retail price.

I don't know where you pulled that arbitrary Value out of but please stuff it back where it came from, game was 54 after tax$ brand new (PC) and 65 after tax$ same as every other new game in any retail store, in my area.
It was free if it was added they would have made the games 64$ and 75$, point is their was no added cost for a upgrade new edition with CN addon it was part of the package.

Modifié par xDarkicex, 15 mai 2010 - 01:18 .

[Busomjack]

If it weren't for Bioware I would've given up on RPGs long ago. Seriously, after the travesty which was Final Fantasy X I had all but given up on the genre. Knights Of The Old Republic changed everything.

[Tennyochan]

come on hi-5 for people that grew up on bioware games (without realising till they we're old enough)
*raises hand*

Modifié par tennyochan, 15 mai 2010 - 01:37 .

[Alexine]

Bioware make really good games. Like every other game out there, bioware games do have its flaws, but at least they are forgivable to me, in comparison to other games. Not to mention they do try to fix up these flaws logically from fan suggestions in comparison to other game companies (I'm looking at you, Square Enix) Therefore, Bioware are in my book of favourite video game companies.

[Stanley Woo]

Not "firing back, PARAGON87. I'm rather enjoying the discussion bjdbwea and I are having, and I hope it's enlightening to others as well who may not have gotten such frank and honest communication with game developers (or any other big company) before.

bjdbwea wrote...
I was absolutely sure ME 2 would be just as amazing. I know many people think it is, and I don't think my opinion is more important than theirs, but for me it was a disappointment.

Yes, that was kinda the flak that we got. "It's too different." Even though the game playd faster, it was more exciting, more immediate, and had fewer stoppages in the story like the hours and hours walking around the Citadel in ME1. Believe me, I shared many of the same reactions when I frst started working on it, but once the game got to a certain point in development, I made myself some Kool-Aid and realized, hey wait a minute, this is actually WAY more fun than I originally gave it credit for!

I think the time to discuss these things if you were so inclined would be now, for we both know that ME 3 is already in development. Later it will again all be "done and not going to change".

And there will come a time, between now and when the game is released, when devs will be very active in these forums again, don't you fret. We're not coming to the community to START the game, because we have a whole host of game development professionals who are paid to do just that, but once things get rolling and we have things that maybe we'd like some input on, or that we'd like to throw out there to see what kind of reaction we'll get.

I don't think people who complained about some things, wanted to see them removed completely. I think we both know that some things were cut due to time constraints, and others were changed significantly because it helped to reduce development time, others again to draw in many new players (nothing wrong with that, but it lead to some disappointing developments). I believe you that some things were changed because of fan feedback too, but for the most part, I actually believe that this is a bit of a convenient excuse. With all due respect, I find it hard to believe that the same people who put so much effort and care into ME 1, to make it a milestone in gaming history, would think that ME 2 is overall an improvement. Maybe they acknowledge that it's an improvement as far as sales numbers are concerned, but not as far as "RPG" and "telling a story" are concerned - the two things BioWare has always been renowned and admired for.

Right, but the only way we can measure success in this business is in sales numbers. Making something "more of an RPG" or "telling a better story" doesn't pay the bills or give you geek cred at the game developer mixers. Getting "more sales" DEFINITELY gets you that cred. Just like at whatever job you work, you're not likely to get a raise or promotion because you're "such a nice guy" or are "diligent about recycling." No, you get that raise and/or promotion because you made the numbers look good, either by bringing in more sales or scoring higher on performance evaluations or filing more Q-45b forms or having a higher customer satisfaction rating. Our job is to make games, and no matter how much we might want to spend another 1500 years crafting the perfect RPG, skyrocketing development costs and greater competition in the market means trying to do as much as you can in as little time as you can. And for us, it means doing all that while not compromising on our commitment to quality or our dedication to our fans.

Of course I don't expect to be the center of your attention, and I laugh about the accusation, which of course I know you didn't mean seriously.

Of course not. i use humour, sarcasm and good-natured ribbing to build a rapport with the strangers I talk to on-line. Makes me seem like less of a banhammer-wielding monster.

[ToJKa1]

Busomjack wrote...

If it weren't for Bioware I would've given up on RPGs long ago. Seriously, after the travesty which was Final Fantasy X I had all but given up on the genre.

Well, i would argue jRPGs aren't really RPG's at all, more like movies with interactive battles if you ask me. And i should know, i've played every Final Fantasy from IV to XIII (except XI and the spin-offs).

On topic, despite disagreeing with some of their practises recently, i still think of them as one the "prestige" developers of the industry. Good going, BioWare

[Veex]

Just tossing my vote of appreciation in for BioWare and the games they make. I wasn't a huge fan of a couple, and each has their own issues, but I've not enjoyed a company's games more thoroughly than BioWare games.

[CherryColaLola]

I want to have Biowares babies.