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Bioware is the best.


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#151
Stanley Woo

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bjdbwea wrote...

I for one actually liked the "slower" pace in ME 1, I liked freely walking around the Citadel, and I didn't see any "stoppages" in the story besides the ones I chose when doing side quests and exploration. And I don't need my games more "immediate" either. Was BG 2 "immediate"? Not really. Still it's considered your best game, at least by me, and by many others too. I hope I'm not too blunt, but it feels as if you're abandoning your old fans, whereas ME 1 (already!) was a very good compromise between action and RPG. That's of course only my personal opinion, and this is starting to swing away from the initial discussion. As I said, I could list my complaints here, but that would go too far.

And that's fair. But generally, many people who were not you complained a lot, and loudly, on the forums about how to make ME2 better. We took a lot of it into account when making ME2, so ME2 is necessarily a bit different. Now that we've made 2 games, and hopefully figured out where we want to go with it or what kind of game we're making, the "differences" in future ME products will likely not be as pronounced as they were between 1 and 2. We're not abandoning anyone. We do a lot to ensure the game is still enjoyable to folks who prefer a bit of a slower RPG, but we can only do so much when we're also trying to attract new players and those we want to introduce RPGs to. We've had lots of FPS and TPS fans tell us this was their first RPG, and how much they loved it!

Unfortunately, nostalgia is a double-edged sword. If everything else were the same as in 1997, then another BG-type game might be possible. But just as it's not 1997 anymore, and BioWare isn't a 100-man company anymore, so too our games are going to be not the same as they were in 1997. Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.

My original point - that there's very little communication - still stands. It's nice to have gotten some quite long replies from you here, but it doesn't change the fact. Even if you at BioWare think that one thing or another is the correct way to go, it would be nice to hear the reasons. That's not a demand, just a sentiment, that I think everyone who's voiced criticism shares.

Sorry, but we're not always going to be able to tell you why something has changed or been cut or added, or why we even made X or Y decision. Ultimately, they're business decisions, and unless you have some kind of stake in the business, you ultimately don't need to know. We do try to tell you what we can, though, either through interviews and features on websites and print magazines, as announcements ont he website, or through conversation with developers.

For a customer, the worst thing a changed feature can mean is "I have to get used to something different" or "I don't like this new feature." For a company, that same change could mean thousands of dollars saved in development costs, hundreds of man-hours saved in system interaction bugs, or millions of dollars more in profit. So you'll have to cut companies a tiny bit of slack if they can't, don't or won't tell you the specifics of why.

Can I interpret that as confirmation that some at BioWare do share my opinion, that ME 2 was actually not an improvement over ME 1 as a game? No, you don't have to answer that of course.

You can interpret it however you like. I can't speak for anyone who's not me. Everyone's got their opinions, and I don't pretend that mine is the right one, the most popular one, or the only one.

I completely understand that you only exist as a company because - and as long - you are able to make money. Yet back in the days when you were independent, you would push back the release date if you weren't quite satisfied yet. And in the end, as far as I know, it was still profitable. I remember this even happened with KotoR 1, and I can imagine that it must have been hard to persuade LucasArts of the necessity. It goes without saying that this can not be done indefinitely, but beyond my personal opinion on some things, it seems obvious enough that numerous changes in ME 2 were due to a publisher who set an unchangeable release date.

Again, you can interpret hoever you like. This is not something that I can speak to.

I find this worrying. So while, as I said, I completely understand the need to make money, back in the days BioWare stood for more, they had a different attitude. A vision, so to speak, always aiming higher. I know this is an idealistic view, but the matter of the fact is that you (BioWare) had this view.

Oh, I'm sure you'll find we haven't changed very much at all in some ways. Things work just a little bit differently now that we are part of a larger organization. We had a different attitude? Sure we did. We no longer have to work ourselves to death to achieve our goals. A vision? Unchanged. But "stood for more?" I dunno about that. What exactly did we "stand for?"

In any case, even saying "sorry, this and that had to be cut because of
time", would be more satisfying than seeing criticisms ignored. At least
we would know which features or characters still matter, and might be
better in ME 3, and which ones were cut/changed for other reasons.

I can't ever promise you that each and every criticism someone brings up is going to be addressed, least of all to their satisfaction. I can't even promise that we'll say anything you want to hear. I can promise, however, that we love our community and enjoy their feedback. So I wouldn't be surprised to see developers interacting with the community once again when we get to a certain stage of development. At the very least, you have people like Chris Preislty and me to abuse in the meantime. :P

#152
TJSolo

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Haha nostalgia for a 2.5yr old game that is still in the same gaming generation.
Please keep on re-tooling ME every iteration to induct the ethereal FPS/TPS crowd that didn't buy the product the first or second time. That is the ear mark or consistency and staying power.

Modifié par TJSolo, 17 mai 2010 - 12:46 .


#153
Apocalypse89

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Yes, how dare they fix and improve things and react to criticism with each new game. It would be much better if every game was exactly like the one before it with no new features or innovation.

#154
Ecael

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Stanley Woo wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I for one actually liked the "slower" pace in ME 1, I liked freely walking around the Citadel, and I didn't see any "stoppages" in the story besides the ones I chose when doing side quests and exploration. And I don't need my games more "immediate" either. Was BG 2 "immediate"? Not really. Still it's considered your best game, at least by me, and by many others too. I hope I'm not too blunt, but it feels as if you're abandoning your old fans, whereas ME 1 (already!) was a very good compromise between action and RPG. That's of course only my personal opinion, and this is starting to swing away from the initial discussion. As I said, I could list my complaints here, but that would go too far.

And that's fair. But generally, many people who were not you complained a lot, and loudly, on the forums about how to make ME2 better. We took a lot of it into account when making ME2, so ME2 is necessarily a bit different. Now that we've made 2 games, and hopefully figured out where we want to go with it or what kind of game we're making, the "differences" in future ME products will likely not be as pronounced as they were between 1 and 2. We're not abandoning anyone. We do a lot to ensure the game is still enjoyable to folks who prefer a bit of a slower RPG, but we can only do so much when we're also trying to attract new players and those we want to introduce RPGs to. We've had lots of FPS and TPS fans tell us this was their first RPG, and how much they loved it!

I still don't see what makes Mass Effect 2 any less of an RPG than Mass Effect 1 in the first place. The number of things to explore in the Mass Effect 1 world was very limited when the map already told everyone where the objective was (and often where anomalies/minerals were, if anyone bothered with that).

It's really an exaggeration for some to say that Mass Effect 2 was much more "shooter" focused when that was all of the action in Mass Effect 1 as well. The third-person shooter perspective didn't change, the amount of shooting, available cover or ability spamming didn't change, and the linearity of the main plot itself didn't change. The amount of dialogue and customization that did go into both games (along with fully voiced main characters) is already staggering enough to make it feel like the player is affecting the galaxy in some way. And that's what ultimately defines a true Role-Playing game.

Stanley Woo wrote...

Unfortunately, nostalgia is a double-edged sword. If everything else were the same as in 1997, then another BG-type game might be possible. But just as it's not 1997 anymore, and BioWare isn't a 100-man company anymore, so too our games are going to be not the same as they were in 1997. Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.

I agree. The nostalgia is especially strong with the original Mass Effect because we were introduced to an expansive new universe - one that drew from several science fiction sources to make a very compelling story. It's hard to beat that experience afterward by staying on the same track, especially if the writers have to continue to keep that story fresh into the next two games (while staying true to all the minor details).

For a customer, the worst thing a changed feature can mean is "I have to get used to something different" or "I don't like this new feature." For a company, that same change could mean thousands of dollars saved in development costs, hundreds of man-hours saved in system interaction bugs, or millions of dollars more in profit. So you'll have to cut companies a tiny bit of slack if they can't, don't or won't tell you the specifics of why.

Question to Stan: If someone does stumble upon the actual reason (either by guessing or research) for a major design change, are you allowed to further elaborate on it, confirm it, or do you have to hold back?

I'm just wondering, since speculating the reasons why BioWare did this or that is still better than acting like BioWare killed their pet for making all the "improvements" (as Casey says) in Mass Effect 2.

For example: Removing elevators altogether saved man-hours in dealing with the elevator glitches (which still aren't fixed, by the way!) from Mass Effect 1.

True/False?

I find this worrying. So while, as I said, I completely understand the need to make money, back in the days BioWare stood for more, they had a different attitude. A vision, so to speak, always aiming higher. I know this is an idealistic view, but the matter of the fact is that you (BioWare) had this view.

Oh, I'm sure you'll find we haven't changed very much at all in some ways. Things work just a little bit differently now that we are part of a larger organization. We had a different attitude? Sure we did. We no longer have to work ourselves to death to achieve our goals. A vision? Unchanged. But "stood for more?" I dunno about that. What exactly did we "stand for?"

I would hope that most people think that the people at BioWare work there because they love what they do - making games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, The Old Republic, Mass Effect and Dragon Age - and not just because it provides them a paycheck.

Greed is a problem in any capitalist society, but the people making the game aren't worried about how much money the product will make, but the quality of what they make. And so far it's still very high quality.

Stanley Woo wrote...

At the very least, you have people like Chris Preislty and me to abuse in the meantime. :P

You spelled Priestly incorrectly. That's three lashes for you!

:lol:

#155
DarthRomance

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well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.

#156
Ecael

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DarthRomance wrote...

well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.

Name more than one part of Mass Effect 1 that wasn't "sploshun" heavy.

The difference between the two games was how each was marketed to a different crowd. Both are still Mass Effect.

Modifié par Ecael, 17 mai 2010 - 02:02 .


#157
CShep25

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Ecael wrote...

DarthRomance wrote...

well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.

Name more than one part of Mass Effect 1 that wasn't "sploshun" heavy.


The sexy times wasn't sploshun heavy.

o wait...

#158
Stanley Woo

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Ecael wrote...

Question to Stan: If someone does stumble upon the actual reason (either by guessing or research) for a major design change, are you allowed to further elaborate on it, confirm it, or do you have to hold back?

If I'm not at liberty to discuss something, what makes you think I'd be at liberty to discuss it if someone guesses correctly? Besides the strange double-standard there, the average forumite likely wouldn't know whether his guess or research was correct unless we confirmed it, right? So if I can't talk about it, that person wouldn't be able to get confirmation!

Wheels within wheels, Ecael... :P

#159
Nozybidaj

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Stanley Woo wrote...

If I'm not at liberty to discuss something, what makes you think I'd be at liberty to discuss it if someone guesses correctly? Besides the strange double-standard there, the average forumite likely wouldn't know whether his guess or research was correct unless we confirmed it, right? So if I can't talk about it, that person wouldn't be able to get confirmation!

Wheels within wheels, Ecael... :P


What kind of things are you allowed to discuss then? :P

One thing I'd personally be interested to see is BW's post implementation review, or at least the highlights.  What they thought they did really well, what they thought they did poorly, what they want to either carry forward or revamp for the next game.  And not just gameplay and technical elements, but story, atmosphere, and presentation as well.

Having a forum full of fan speculation can be nice I suppose, but without any kind of idea on what are and are not good discussions you just end up with tons of static and not much useful feedback.  If we had an idea what kind of issues have potential to be looked at or need to be addressed it might actually focus some forum discussion in useful directions.

Unfortunately by the time we usually find out about those items we get the "sorry too late to change" response and never get the opportunity to actually give useful feedback on anything.

#160
Ecael

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Question to Stan: If someone does stumble upon the actual reason (either by guessing or research) for a major design change, are you allowed to further elaborate on it, confirm it, or do you have to hold back?

If I'm not at liberty to discuss something, what makes you think I'd be at liberty to discuss it if someone guesses correctly? Besides the strange double-standard there, the average forumite likely wouldn't know whether his guess or research was correct unless we confirmed it, right? So if I can't talk about it, that person wouldn't be able to get confirmation!

Wheels within wheels, Ecael... :P

That's... true. Even so, there are a lot of unanswered questions with the current direction of Mass Effect (not that I'm complaining with the current trend), and it doesn't seem right to accuse BioWare of the worst when trying to find a reason why - for example, the idea that they're "abandoning their fans" or "targeting the lowest common denominator".

Image IPB

On another note:

Gears 3 Features 'Light' RPG Elements

The design director for Gears of War is impressed with Mass Effect 1 and 2's RPG elements and is now trying to make Gears of War a little more like Mass Effect.

So, maybe you'll see elements from more RPGs, or Heavy Rain narrative style elements, start bleeding into the genre.

Kind of ironic if some people already think that Mass Effect is Gears of War. But if that were the case, why would Gears of War want to be more like Mass Effect?

I get the feeling that whatever official forum GoW has will have people whining about how Epic Games abandoned their fans for "dumbing it down" into an RPG.

Irony shall ensue...

#161
DreDk

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"Bioware is the best. "



NO, Bioware is NOT the best, not anymore.

It was the best.

Now, they have to prove it again to me.

After DA (xbox360 version) & ME2 I have lost faith in them.








#162
CShep25

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Nozybidaj wrote...

One thing I'd personally be interested to see is BW's post implementation review, or at least the highlights.  What they thought they did really well, what they thought they did poorly, what they want to either carry forward or revamp for the next game.  And not just gameplay and technical elements, but story, atmosphere, and presentation as well.

Having a forum full of fan speculation can be nice I suppose, but without any kind of idea on what are and are not good discussions you just end up with tons of static and not much useful feedback.  If we had an idea what kind of issues have potential to be looked at or need to be addressed it might actually focus some forum discussion in useful directions.

Unfortunately by the time we usually find out about those items we get the "sorry too late to change" response and never get the opportunity to actually give useful feedback on anything.


This is what I've been thinking. Since the forum gets so many repetitive topics covering the same issues, I understand why the devs aren't vocal like they were the first time these issues cropped up at release. Responding to all of them would be impossible. But we still get so much repitition I think it's a good idea for a dev to make a sticky on fan reaction, admitting what could have been done better along with what worked well so that fans can get an idea of the vague direction ME3 will take. As it stands, dev responses are either entirely non-existant or hidden away in a few select threads suc has this one. To pin a sticky to the top of the page where all the main issues good and bad have been raised about ME2 and how these apply in the making of ME3 in the most ambiguous of terms would certainly help cut down on the often trolled threads we see thrice a week.

#163
2pac Shakur

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DarthRomance wrote...

well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.


the shooter crowd is larger

larger crowds = more profits

you seriously think ME3 will go back to ME's RPG roots?

#164
KitsuneRommel

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2pac Shakur wrote...

you seriously think ME3 will go back to ME's RPG roots?


If by RPG roots you mean badly implemented inventory, random weapons/armor found in all sorts of boxes (yet enemies rarely drop anything), nonsensical gear progression, badly working shooter mechanics and 2 dimensional characters. I seriously hope ME3 will not go back to those.

#165
TMZuk

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

2pac Shakur wrote...

you seriously think ME3 will go back to ME's RPG roots?


If by RPG roots you mean badly implemented inventory, random weapons/armor found in all sorts of boxes (yet enemies rarely drop anything), nonsensical gear progression, badly working shooter mechanics and 2 dimensional characters. I seriously hope ME3 will not go back to those.


Amen to that!!

But, if we could get more interaction with npc's, more character development, and less of the Bioware star: Go four places, gather stuff and ppl, then go hit the fifth place, I'd be happy. More non-combat stuff, more ROLEPLAY, I'd be even happier! Don't get me wrong, I love both games.... Or I'd not be here, but they could be better, so much better.

When BG was mentioned earlier, and it was said: You can't make a game like BG today, I'd say Project Red proved that to be a lie with The Witcher.

#166
Icinix

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Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's fair. But generally, many people who were not you complained a lot, and loudly, on the forums about how to make ME2 better. We took a lot of it into account when making ME2, so ME2 is necessarily a bit different.

This is the only the reason why I get on these forums.  I never was involved in the old forums, never had the issues other people had.  So when changes were made in ME2, I had to get on the forums and have my voice heard, or my text read.  Where it was something I never dreamed of really doing before. Maybe you guys have set a a bit of a standard.  The protesters in 'Awakenings' aren't representative of the Fans by any chance are they? :P

Believe me, I have fond memories of Saturday morning cartoons from the 80s, and I'm disappointed that they're not nearly as good now as they were then. They are different, however, and different doesn't necessarily mean bad.


I don't know Mr.Woo, newer cartoons have lost their direction a bit.  They used to have a deeper meaning, some moral to teach the kiddies who watched them.  Now, it's all visceral combat, psychotic girls with mind powers and endless supplies of robots.

Wait...


Edit : I'm making a note here. :whistle:

Modifié par Icinix, 17 mai 2010 - 10:05 .


#167
KitsuneRommel

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TMZuk wrote...

When BG was mentioned earlier, and it was said: You can't make a game like BG today, I'd say Project Red proved that to be a lie with The Witcher.


I'm guessing The Witcher is not using the AD&D rules like BG is. That's the biggest problem I have with BG.

#168
DarthRomance

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2pac Shakur wrote...

DarthRomance wrote...

well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.


the shooter crowd is larger

larger crowds = more profits

you seriously think ME3 will go back to ME's RPG roots?


I think it will have more customization- more weapons and powers. different sizes and types of armors.  I don't think it will be like ME1 but it will cater to the RPG crowd.  Hopefully there will be other things like more freedom with character progression and exploration.

#169
Blacklash93

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Kudos to Bioware for listening us! Much appreciated!

#170
Stanley Woo

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Ecael wrote...

That's... true. Even so, there are a lot of unanswered questions with the current direction of Mass Effect (not that I'm complaining with the current trend), and it doesn't seem right to accuse BioWare of the worst when trying to find a reason why - for example, the idea that they're "abandoning their fans" or "targeting the lowest common denominator".

Opinions like that will crop up with every new release. I personally have heard the "BioWare is abandoning their fans" or "they're betraying the fans that made them successful/popular," as if BioWare ever stopped listening to its fans. Hardcore RPG is a niche within a niche, and that's really tough to cater to when you get bigger as a company and want to attract new players from elsewhere on the gamer spectrum. So yes, many hardcore RPG folks consider us to have "abondoned" them because we're no longer catering to just them, and that we're "catering to the lowest common denominator" because shooters are far more mainstream and tend to skew younger, higher energy, and more verbose in forums and voice chat. Hardcore RPGers traditionally consider shooters to be the domain of the less-complex (ie. simplistic) consoles and the less literary/intellectual action-game enthusiasts (ie. FPS kiddies) who gravitate towards them.

People like to complain on the internet. it's fast, easy, and completely anonymous. And if there's someone official there to actually listen, all the more reason to complain--often and loudly--about the bugs or the direction or whatever else you don't like about the game. After all, a tiny chance the issue will be heard and get fixed is better than no chance at all, right? :)

#171
Nozybidaj

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2pac Shakur wrote...

DarthRomance wrote...

well hopefully they will pander back to the RPG crowd instead of the FPS/TPS crowd this time around because I am more for the RPG crowd and they are the ones critiquing the most. This means ME1 and ME3 will be made for us and ME2 can be left for those other sploshuns jokers.


the shooter crowd is larger

larger crowds = more profits

you seriously think ME3 will go back to ME's RPG roots?


Except the game didn't pull in this huge segment of shooter fans.  1.6 mill in box sales while respectable isn't on the same level as say Halo that pulls down 20+ mill.  Why not go back to catering your core audience who are now "unhappy"?  Of course they could go the other way and remove even more rpg elements and give pulling in the shooter crowd another go, they'll just have to consider how successful that attempt may be at this point and if the risk is worth further alienating the "core" BW fanbase.

As much as the ME teams doesn't seem to want to admit it people play BW games for a reason, their track record in story and characters.  They had that in ME1 and tried a different approach in ME2 and, well,  I wonder what impact that is going to have on ME3's success.  Personally I feel BW has some rebuilding they need to do now in the faith department.  They asked for a free pass prior to ME2 and many gave it to them because they had such a strong history.  Now those folks want to see if BW can make good on that promise in the next game.

#172
Sailears

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You know, when ME2 was released it felt like a jarring transition from ME1. Yes there were many things which felt awkward to adjust to, all of which have been discussed extensively on these forums. After finishing ME2 once, I went back to ME1 for quite some time before deciding to return to the present. It's taken a while, but ME2 has grown on me.

Ok I think its a general consensus that ME1 has a top notch story, but that being said I enjoy playing ME2 more now such that I find it difficult to go back.

If ME2 had been without a predecessor my initial reaction would have been more positive. In any case, that (perhaps unfair judgement) is in the past and now I fully appreciate the second instalment.

#173
Nozybidaj

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Curunen wrote...

If ME2 had been without a predecessor my initial reaction would have been more positive. In any case, that (perhaps unfair judgement) is in the past and now I fully appreciate the second instalment.


I do agree that if I had never played ME1 I would have probably enjoyed ME2 much much more.  

#174
Kreid

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Mass Effect 1&2 are the best games I've played in my life (for me) so, yes, Bioware is the best for granting me such wonderful experiences.

#175
iharal5

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I'll have to agree with Stanley on pretty much all these points.



People who play the first game in a serie and then moves on to the sequel will often be disappointet because the game is different in an improved way. A player who is 'stuck' in the prequel's functions will often simply toss the sequel's new and improved functions away as garbage.



I know this myself from playing Gears of War. I loved the first one, but when I moved on to playing the second, I simply hated everything that was different about it. But, as time went on, I started to realize that Geow2 actually was hell of a lot better than Geow1. I think the same thing goes for ME1/ME2, and sequels in general.



I agree with the OP btw, BioWare is my favorite company. And I've only played DA:O and Me1 and Me2.