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[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

@ drunken. Saw your post.

That would make sense. But imagine shepard as being a colonist and having his/her entire family killed by batarians. Despite the fact you get to control the outcomes, do you think that this gives shepard every right to be racist to other aliens? And what about the aliens who join up with shepard? Most races distrust humans, but they don't seem to mind having a human commander to much to they?



But who knows, her side of the story makes a little more sense then it did before.

[Beholderess]

Nivenus wrote...

Possible fight for loyalty doesn't mean "big plot point" unless you think each of the loyalty missions was a huge plot point. Yes, they're important to the story, but they're not all story critical.

I think what we may have had is just a misunderstanding of one another's terms.

It is very possible.
Tough I didn't mean the loyalty mission. What I meant is what Ask/Kaidan would do if, for example, Shepard had to act against the orders of Hackett. In ME1 I've been pretty sure I know the answer (see their reaction when you technically stolen Normandy), but after ME2 I do not know it anymore.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

@ drunken. Saw your post.
That would make sense. But imagine shepard as being a colonist and having his/her entire family killed by batarians. Despite the fact you get to control the outcomes, do you think that this gives shepard every right to be racist to other aliens? And what about the aliens who join up with shepard? Most races distrust humans, but they don't seem to mind having a human commander to much to they?

But who knows, her side of the story makes a little more sense then it did before.

The key point I'm making is that distrust is not racism. Would you say it's unreasonable as an American to be wary if say a Russian was running around on our most high tech nuclear sub? By the same token, is it unreasonable for say, Portugal or some equally small, weak country to be on high-alert if the USA landed a collossal force within their borders? The Alliance lives under the constant knowledge that they can be obliterated in an instant by the turian Hierarchy. As they almost were if the asari hadn't stepped in. History teaches that the strong always prey on the weak. Yet she still displays no signs of actual racism towards individuals, only governments. Yes, she is worried about Garrus and Wrex's presence but she quickly grows out of it. No true racist would do so.

[Nivenus]

To be entirely fair, pyro, it's a fine, fine line. I tend to think one can't put Ash's views in one category or the other neatly. I like Ash and I think those who dismiss her as racist are ignorant and blind to her true character, but it's an easy slip from cautious nationalism to supremacism.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I really did not think that ashley trusted wrex, garrus, or tali to much based on the way she thinks of other species. But i can understand why.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

To be entirely fair, pyro, it's a fine, fine line. I tend to think one can't put Ash's views in one category or the other neatly. I like Ash and I think those who dismiss her as racist are ignorant and blind to her true character, but it's an easy slip from cautious nationalism to supremacism.

I disagree, but whatever.

[Nivenus]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

To be entirely fair, pyro, it's a fine, fine line. I tend to think one can't put Ash's views in one category or the other neatly. I like Ash and I think those who dismiss her as racist are ignorant and blind to her true character, but it's an easy slip from cautious nationalism to supremacism.

I disagree, but whatever.

I agree, not the conversation to be held here.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I really did not think that ashley trusted wrex, garrus, or tali to much based on the way she thinks of other species. But i can understand why.

She never says anything about Tali.
And since when is it a crime to distust? It's simply common sense to distrust people until they've proven themselves otherwise. Why is it racist when the subject is of a different species instead of human? Is that not racist? That only humans are so base and stupid to betray you?

[Beholderess]

Ashley is not a racist. She has hre prejudgices,sure, but she is able to change them. And it's not like she consider aliens to be lesser creatures or something like that. As a poster above said, her attitude is much closer to that people have to foreign countries than racism per se. If anything, she is nationalist, not racist=)

However...I can't help but notice that her attitudes are very, very similar to those of the Cerberus crew of Normandy. You know, that "nice Cerberus" bunch we have on board. Which is quite ironic.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I kind of thought that she always had distrusted the alien crew till the very end. Then again thats what i thought about pressly =/

[drunken pyromaniac]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I kind of thought that she always had distrusted the alien crew till the very end. Then again thats what i thought about pressly =/

I take it you didn't talk much to her? You don't have to go far to start mellowing her views.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Beholderess wrote...

Ashley is not a racist. She has hre prejudgices,sure, but she is able to change them. And it's not like she consider aliens to be lesser creatures or something like that. As a poster above said, her attitude is much closer to that people have to foreign countries than racism per se. If anything, she is nationalist, not racist=)
However...I can't help but notice that her attitudes are very, very similar to those of the Cerberus crew of Normandy. You know, that "nice Cerberus" bunch we have on board. Which is quite ironic.

First part: I wouldn't call them prejudices but fair enough.
Second part: I couldn't disagree more.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I kind of thought that she always had distrusted the alien crew till the very end. Then again thats what i thought about pressly =/

I take it you didn't talk much to her? You don't have to go far to start mellowing her views.

Well uh....i did romance her

[Nivenus]

At the very least, I think we can agree that Ashley wouldn't approve of Cerberus' experiments on human soldiers, right? Am I right?

[drunken pyromaniac]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Well uh....i did romance her

I'm guessing you didn't pay much attention though. There's evidence for a cynic in her. Not a racist.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

At the very least, I think we can agree that Ashley wouldn't approve of Cerberus' experiments on human soldiers, right? Am I right?

Agreed, though she didn't approve of the other experiments as well in ME1.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would approve of cerberus. I just wish there was at least something ash could of done to help shepard even if she doesn't want to tag along. I mean, at least some moral support or a "run in" on the citadel. Shepard is kind of like the illusive man's puppet and he/she needed to surround themselves with people they could trust in the midst of pyschos, maniacs, and humans first fanatics.

[Nivenus]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

At the very least, I think we can agree that Ashley wouldn't approve of Cerberus' experiments on human soldiers, right? Am I right?

Agreed, though she didn't approve of the other experiments as well in ME1.

My point is, even those who say Ashley's an out-and-out speciesist/racist/whatever have to admit that she'd still have some serious moral issues with Cerberus. That is, if they were paying attention.

[Beholderess]

Nivenus wrote...

At the very least, I think we can agree that Ashley wouldn't approve of Cerberus' experiments on human soldiers, right? Am I right?

Well, my paragon Shep doesn't approve of it too, and he never gave her any indication that he, under any circumstances, would. Yet she found it easy to believe.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...


My point is, even those who say Ashley's an out-and-out speciesist/racist/whatever have to admit that she'd still have some serious moral issues with Cerberus. That is, if they were paying attention.

Agreed. Even though I've seen people claim otherwise.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I don't think anyone in their right mind would approve of cerberus. I just wish there was at least something ash could of done to help shepard even if she doesn't want to tag along. I mean, at least some moral support or a "run in" on the citadel. Shepard is kind of like the illusive man's puppet and he/she needed to surround themselves with people they could trust in the midst of pyschos, maniacs, and humans first fanatics.

This was no actual foul on her side though. She was written out for story purposes. She's not hiding just to spite you.

[Beholderess]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Ashley is not a racist. She has hre prejudgices,sure, but she is able to change them. And it's not like she consider aliens to be lesser creatures or something like that. As a poster above said, her attitude is much closer to that people have to foreign countries than racism per se. If anything, she is nationalist, not racist=)
However...I can't help but notice that her attitudes are very, very similar to those of the Cerberus crew of Normandy. You know, that "nice Cerberus" bunch we have on board. Which is quite ironic.

First part: I wouldn't call them prejudices but fair enough.
Second part: I couldn't disagree more.

Why? Some of the crewmembers explicitely tell you that they are not against aliens, but humanity needs to look after it's own interests first, for noone else will. Almost the same thing she tells about humans and aliens, in her famous bear and dog analogy.

[Nivenus]

Beholderess wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

At the very least, I think we can agree that Ashley wouldn't approve of Cerberus' experiments on human soldiers, right? Am I right?

Well, my paragon Shep doesn't approve of it too, and he never gave her any indication that he, under any circumstances, would. Yet she found it easy to believe.

Regardless of whether she feels Shepard would carry out those acts, she still feels that he's betraying her by associating with Cerberus. She's very principled. Her principles might not be yours or mine, but she sticks to them.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure she didn't buy Shepard's "I was dead" line - even though it's true. It's a pretty damn hard story to believe and there's not a whole lot of proof. Even if she does believe him (which she probably doesn't) she's probably ticked off that he didn't try to contact her sooner (yes, she's out of touch, but I'm being real here). In fact, I believe Kaidan says as much.

Shepard's asking a lot by appearing with no explanation. I'm not saying that she's right or wrong, but her approach is a lot different than Garrus (who has nothing left) and Tali's (who seems to align herself more with people and less with organizations) not because she was poorly written, but because she stayed true to her character, which is different.

Modifié par Nivenus, 18 mai 2010 - 06:30 .

[Beholderess]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I don't think anyone in their right mind would approve of cerberus. I just wish there was at least something ash could of done to help shepard even if she doesn't want to tag along. I mean, at least some moral support or a "run in" on the citadel. Shepard is kind of like the illusive man's puppet and he/she needed to surround themselves with people they could trust in the midst of pyschos, maniacs, and humans first fanatics.

This was no actual foul on her side though. She was written out for story purposes. She's not hiding just to spite you.

Wrex and Liara are are not joining for the story purposes too. This is quite understandable. Besides, it's not like a soldier can just walk away from her post and join a crew of some ship that no records show.
But! Wrex and Liara do not call Shep a traitor. Which is my main issue with Virmire survivor.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Beholderess wrote...

Why? Some of the crewmembers explicitely tell you that they are not against aliens, but humanity needs to look after it's own interests first, for noone else will. Almost the same thing she tells about humans and aliens, in her famous bear and dog analogy.

Cerberus is an explicitely human supremacist organization. They're essentilly the IRA mixed with a pinch of KKK. Ashley merely thinks that humanity should look after its own. She never says, "Lol! We should take this place over!" And yes, neither does any Cerberus member, but the Illusive Man wishes to ensure human dominance.