310 réponses à ce sujet

[bas273]

KendallX23 wrote...

it's not like Bioware made Shepards responses any smarter...he just acted like hey Ash what's up...how u been ?i am cool as u can see...what me with Cerberus...pwah dosen't matter...hey wanna join my squad....?
But anyway...Ashley pretty much reacted like anyone else would..especially if u romanced her...u've been dead for 2 years then u go on without sending her a message and appear to be working for an organisation with a reputation like Cerberus...at least the e-mai afterwards is a good way to start patching things through..well for some players anyway

Like you have a choice.

If this was real-life and not a game, I would've send her an email right away and betray Cerberus by kicking Miranda and Jacob out of the Normandy and going to the Citadel to revoke my Spectre status. But no, Bioware forces us to work for Cerberus which destroys our relationship with Ashley/Kaidan/Liara. Instead they give us Miranda and by zooming in on her back in every cutscene they hope her looks will make us forget our ME1 LI.
Sorry Bioware but that's not gonna happen. We all want Ashley/Kaidan/Liara to return as squadmates in ME3. If not, you ruined a game trilogy with great potential.

Modifié par bas273, 13 mai 2010 - 10:45 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

nhsk wrote...

Not that I defend any "terrorist" act but I understand why people are pissed off in the arab world.

I understand too, but two wrongs do not make a right. The west has played a heavy hand in arab politics (don't leave out the Persians) but it still is no excuse for fanatical behavior.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Humanity is screwed if the lack of intelligence from some of the people posting in this topic is anything to go by.

Ash is a conditioned Alliance soldier. She has been lead to believe a lot of things and rightfully acts upon them.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 13 mai 2010 - 11:20 .

[nhsk]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Not that I defend any "terrorist" act but I understand why people are pissed off in the arab world.

I understand too, but two wrongs do not make a right. The west has played a heavy hand in arab politics (don't leave out the Persians) but it still is no excuse for fanatical behavior.

Fanatical behaviour is in the eyes of the beholder. It is not fanatical to invade another country because "god" (existence of, claim dismissed) told him to? Or because that man tried to kill his father? Or stating that either you are with us or against us?

Guess what the terrorists see on CNN, it's not the meta politics behind the scenes. (Though I doubt there was any in the Bush administration)

Anyway, on the topic - Well, it wasn't like Bioware gave us a hell of a lot of options when meeting Ashley on Horizon.. Like saying "the first thing I did when I woke up (or had the chance) was to fly to the citadel to ask Anderson about YOU but he wouldn't say anything about you and I couldn't ask him to relay a message due to lack of options in my dialogue tree, you ever get that feeling that your actions is directed by some invisible force who knows what is going to happen next almost everytime btw, or is it just me?"

[Nozybidaj]

Sand King wrote...
Cerberus isn’t a terrorist organization.

[Kid_SixXx]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

Yeah, but she didn't even try to listen. She was clearly blinded by the fact that it was Cerberus. She needed to calm the hell down and LISTEN TO ME. No, instead she has to go running back to the Alliance without hearing my side of the story.

Who can blame her?  The laundry list of Cerberus misdeeds includes the murder of Admirak Kahoku, the Thresher Maw ambush on Akuze in the course of human experimentation, development of Geth Husks, Thorian Creepers and the Rachni as bio-weapons, and the torture and conditioning of biotics on Pragia that resulted in Jack being turned into Subject Zero.

And those are the projects that you have knowledge about.  Who knows what else TIM is up to behind your back?

Frankly, I'm shocked that Shepard tries to grab the moral high ground when Ashley reads him the riot act.  He really is in a pretty indefensible position, especially given the fact that he had a hand in thwarting Cerberus's plans in ME1 and saw first hand the atrocities that Cerberus was willing to commit in order to further their agenda.

The only thing that (unfortunately) spares me from turning Miranda  and Kelly over my knee and giving them a spanking is the fact that Cerberus cells operate independantly, so the folks you are working with in ME2 have no idea what the other less than honorable operation cells are up to or how they conduct their affairs.

I really am looking forward to putting a bullet in TIM's brain at the conclusion of ME3.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 13 mai 2010 - 02:06 .

[Big I]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sand King wrote...
Cerberus isn’t a terrorist organization.

They're terrorists in the same way the IRA was, a ruthless paramilitary organisation with a nationalist (or in this case Human centric) ideology.

[Halmiriliath]

fortunesque wrote...

The semantics of who Cerberus are doesn't matter. They're evil, and it was realistic for Ash and Kaidan to freak out.

Evil is about as subjective a concept as you can get. As Images said, there are those who would believe that Cerberus is doing the right thing - not me, but that's irrelevant - and that the ends justify the means in a matter that concerns the existence and ongoing survival of an entire species. Moreover, there would be a great many attracted to groups like Cerberus out of simple ignorance tinged with xenophobia; such people are not evil, just misguided.

That said, I believe Ashley and Kaidan's reactions were justified - Shepard being associated with a group who we've seen some of the worst aspects of in the first Mass Effect would no doubt be a painful shock. Moreover, I quite liked how Shepard's Silver Tongue of Diplomacy +1 failed him/her at this point. It's a reunion with one of their most trusted comrades, and I interpreted Kaidan/Ashley's objection to his/her Cerberus connection - one he/she didn't really have much choice on - as catching Shepard completely off balance. I imagined Shepard as being so busy trying to get his/her head straight concerning being resurrected and getting information on the Collector issue that they hadn't taken the time to think through the points they could make to justify their association with Cerberus, and simply ended up sputtering out things along the lines of 'you don't understand!' But that might just be the way I interpreted it...  

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 13 mai 2010 - 04:34 .

[KendallX23]

bas273 wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...

it's not like Bioware made Shepards responses any smarter...he just acted like hey Ash what's up...how u been ?i am cool as u can see...what me with Cerberus...pwah dosen't matter...hey wanna join my squad....?
But anyway...Ashley pretty much reacted like anyone else would..especially if u romanced her...u've been dead for 2 years then u go on without sending her a message and appear to be working for an organisation with a reputation like Cerberus...at least the e-mai afterwards is a good way to start patching things through..well for some players anyway

Like you have a choice.

If this was real-life and not a game, I would've send her an email right away and betray Cerberus by kicking Miranda and Jacob out of the Normandy and going to the Citadel to revoke my Spectre status. But no, Bioware forces us to work for Cerberus which destroys our relationship with Ashley/Kaidan/Liara. Instead they give us Miranda and by zooming in on her back in every cutscene they hope her looks will make us forget our ME1 LI.
Sorry Bioware but that's not gonna happen. We all want Ashley/Kaidan/Liara to return as squadmates in ME3. If not, you ruined a game trilogy with great potential.

hey..i like Miranda...but even better would be if Ashley would have been there too...

[Fiery Phoenix]

LOL! It's only natural for the OP to say so without having read her email.

[scorptatious]

Yeah. I was hoping that Ashley and I would patch things up even after that argument, but than Kelly told me about how Tali, someone who has been part of my crew since ME1, had feelings for me...



Sorry Ash, but you dropped the ball and the Quarian picked it up!

[Dean_the_Young]

It would be rather amusing if there's a point in ME3 where someone you've known/sympathized with (Hacket? Talitha? Mother Shepard?) joins Cerberus and you're there for a showdown.

[Ieldra]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...
Sadly, my TV is Standard Definition. So I was one of the *millions* to suffer from Bioware's poor choice of ridiculously small and unreadable text. I never read basically any of the messages.

See if from a PC player's perspective: interactive elements and text are ridiculously and implausibly big. Just move closer to the screen.

[askanec]

The funny thing is that you can convince Jack, a total stranger who hates Cerebus even more than anyone else, to come along. Oh yeah, and Tali and Garrus too.



Yet, when it comes to Ashley or Kaidan, your love interest (if you romanced them) actually do the "lalalala, I'm not listening to you" routine. What's going on? You can convince total strangers but not your love interest?

[Dean_the_Young]

Jack doesn't really have a choice. Exploding space station, remember?



Garrus himself says he feels in no position to judge you after his own screw up, while Tali admits she thought you were intending to blow it up.

[Kid_SixXx]

askanec wrote...

The funny thing is that you can convince Jack, a total stranger who hates Cerebus even more than anyone else, to come along. Oh yeah, and Tali and Garrus too.

Jack needs the info that Cerberus has and figures correctly that the best way to root out her enemies is to help Shepard.  Keeping your friends close and enemies closer and all that sort of thing. 

She is also homicidal so the chance to kill people makes her happy in general.

There was also the matter of either of escaping with Shepard or dying when Purgatory blew up.

Garrus lost his team and burned his bridges with C-Sec so there is really nothing for him to turn to or return to.  Going along with Shepard is a chance for some adventure.  Garrus is a danger junkie.

Tali comes along out of a sense of loyalty and arguably for security since Shepard is always there for her when things get dangerous.  She also shares Garrus's sense of disenchantment with authority albeit focused at the Admiralty Board.

There is also the allure of once again working on the most advanced warship in the galaxy not belonging to the Collectors.

Tali also hopes (as does Jack most likely) that you will end up destroying Cerberus from the inside once you are finished dealing with the Reaper menace.

askanec wrote...

Yet, when it comes to Ashley or Kaidan, your love interest (if you romanced them) actually do the "lalalala, I'm not listening to you" routine. What's going on? You can convince total strangers but not your love interest?

Given the fact that Kaiden / Ashley are fully aware of the Reaper menace, you'd think they'd be inclined to help Shepard, but they have also witnessed Cerberus's various unethical and illegal activities first hand and they are perplexed that Shepard would forgive so much.

Shepard really has made the worst Faustian bargain one could imagine but given the effort Cerberus made to bring him back from the dead and the resources they put at his disposal to take the fight to the Collectors, there wasn't much room for alternate considerations.

The Alliance cannot provide a ship with the capabilities of the SR2 and neither they nor the Council have the political will to investigate the colonist abductions.  Working with Cerberus is the only viable route to take.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 13 mai 2010 - 03:59 .

[syllogi]

askanec wrote...

The funny thing is that you can convince Jack, a total stranger who hates Cerebus even more than anyone else, to come along. Oh yeah, and Tali and Garrus too.

Yet, when it comes to Ashley or Kaidan, your love interest (if you romanced them) actually do the "lalalala, I'm not listening to you" routine. What's going on? You can convince total strangers but not your love interest?

I keep seeing people say that Ashley and Kaidan "won't listen", but what did Shepard actually say in that scene that would convince anyone of anything???  As others have mentioned, Shepard suddenly becomes an idiot on Horizon, unable to articulate a defense of Cerberus other than "welp, they're not so bad, they made me better!"

If my Shepard had pled her case eloquently to Kaidan/Ashley, and they still called me a traitor and refused to listen, then I would have been upset at their character transformations.  As it is, however, they make good points that are never addressed in the game. 

[askanec]

[quote]Kid_SixXx wrote...

Yet, when it comes to Ashley or Kaidan, your love interest (if you romanced them) actually do the "lalalala, I'm not listening to you" routine. What's going on? You can convince total strangers but not your love interest?[/quote]

Given the fact that Kaiden / Ashley are fully aware of the Reaper menace, you'd think they'd be inclined to help Shepard, but they have also witnessed Cerberus's various unethical and illegal activities first hand and they are perplexed that Shepard would forgive so much.

[/quote]


And Tali or Garrus didn't notice what Cerebus did?

Tali didn't join you at Freedom's Progress because she still has missions to do. Otherwise, she didn't object to coming along. Garrus seem pretty relaxed about being in a Cerebus vessel, even though his character and experience in C-Sec makes him intolerant of criminals and evil-doers getting away scot-free. Even Dr Chakwas said that she trusts Shepard's dealing with Cerebus would be ethical.

In short, nobody from ME1 really cares Shepard is running around with Cerebus, except Kaidan/Ashley. It's quite amazing the person closest to Shepard is the one who doesn't trust him. Even Anderson, whom Shepard only interact with here and there in ME1, sticks his neck out for Shepard and agrees to help run interference.

[wolfsite]

I don't think I saw anyone mention this but during the Horizon dialogue and a few times afterwards it is let out that TIM leafed information about Shepard being alive and is now working for Cerberus. We don't know exactly what was said in those leaks but they may believe information they think they were able to crack and retrieve and feel Shepard is just trying to poorly cover that up.



It's a conflict since they were under the assumption even before they saw you that you are an official part of Cerberus and may even think your death was faked (I know that is stretching it a bit) to join them. It just all depends on how TIM manipulated there opinions of Shepard with the deliberately leaked information.

[derailed81]

After the Cerberus stuff we saw in ME1, I don't think Ashley's/Kaiden's reaction is unjustified. Frankly, as a sole survivor it annoyed the hell out of me when Shepard couldn't flip out about Cerberus, especially when Miranda asks how Shepard felt about losing his whole squad on Akuze on the way to Freedom's Progress.



In ME1 I even gave the Cerberus intel to the Shadow Broker to try and damage that organization as much as possible (though this was before I knew the SB would turn straight evil).

[Beholderess]

Massadonious1 wrote...

You would think that someone who is supposed to "know you" and thinks they had "something special" with you would know that you're not going to strap bombs to thorian creepers, or anything inheriently evil.

But OMG, lets freak out and hate by association regardless.

This!
And that's why I'm royally angry on both Kai/Ash. However, Ash's email sounded much nicer than Kaidan's, so my maleshep is going to wait for her. As for my femshep and Kaidan - after all the words that were said, "maybe" is just not enough.

[Beholderess]

askanec wrote...

And Tali or Garrus didn't notice what Cerebus did?

Tali didn't join you at Freedom's Progress because she still has missions to do. Otherwise, she didn't object to coming along. Garrus seem pretty relaxed about being in a Cerebus vessel, even though his character and experience in C-Sec makes him intolerant of criminals and evil-doers getting away scot-free. Even Dr Chakwas said that she trusts Shepard's dealing with Cerebus would be ethical.

In short, nobody from ME1 really cares Shepard is running around with Cerebus, except Kaidan/Ashley. It's quite amazing the person closest to Shepard is the one who doesn't trust him. Even Anderson, whom Shepard only interact with here and there in ME1, sticks his neck out for Shepard and agrees to help run interference.

Indeed.
Well, at least now Shepard knows who s/he can trust, and who can't be counted upon.

[Dean_the_Young]

Can trust: People who abandon their former convictions and ally themselves with an extremist group that has actively harmed their people, all for the sake of a man who may or may not be a clone/control chip zombie.



Can't trust: People who don't join extremist groups that do the above.

[Nivenus]

askanec wrote...

And Tali or Garrus didn't notice what Cerebus did?

Tali didn't join you at Freedom's Progress because she still has missions to do. Otherwise, she didn't object to coming along. Garrus seem pretty relaxed about being in a Cerebus vessel, even though his character and experience in C-Sec makes him intolerant of criminals and evil-doers getting away scot-free. Even Dr Chakwas said that she trusts Shepard's dealing with Cerebus would be ethical.

In short, nobody from ME1 really cares Shepard is running around with Cerebus, except Kaidan/Ashley. It's quite amazing the person closest to Shepard is the one who doesn't trust him. Even Anderson, whom Shepard only interact with here and there in ME1, sticks his neck out for Shepard and agrees to help run interference.

The difference with Tali and Garrus is that Shepard is just about the only person they trust implicitly. Ashley's got her sister. Kaidan's probably got somebody. As important as Shepard is to them, s/he's not their rock in the same way that Shepard is for Tali and Garrus (or Liara for that matter, though that's another subject).

Plus, Tali has the option to leave, as does Garrus (in fact, in his case, he has nowhere else to go). Neither Ashley nor Kaidan have that option, given their obligations to the Alliance. 

Modifié par Nivenus, 14 mai 2010 - 06:02 .