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[Fiery Phoenix]

Ashley and Kaidan are just extremely loyal to the Alliance.

[Lady of the Waters]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

Marvelous post. I wept. Truer words were never spoken.

[Hyper Cutter]

I can understand her reasons for not joining you, and most of why she's angry at you, the part I didn't like was the one that went basically like:

"Why didn't you call?"
"I was dead."
"That's no excuse!"

Also that there's no option to say "I tried to contact you, but no one would tell me where you were" if you'd, say, asked Anderson about her previously...

[Beholderess]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Can trust: People who abandon their former convictions and ally themselves with an extremist group that has actively harmed their people, all for the sake of a man who may or may not be a clone/control chip zombie.

Can't trust: People who don't join extremist groups that do the above.

Can trust: Those who are willing to put their own trust in me, for trust is only valid if it's mutual. Those who will watch my back and not leave me to fend for myself at the time of greatest trouble.

Can't trust: Those who cannot trust me, who are all to willing to believe the worst and assume the worst about me. Those who will abandon me at the darkest hour.

It doesn't make them bad people in my eyes, by the way. It simply puts then into the same category as the Council, C-sec, Udina etc. Allies, sure, and (as a paragon) I tend to act in their interests and respect them - while not relying on them too much, not expecting them to offer much assistance (if any) and still being prepared to act without their knowlege  or even against their orders if nessesary. They are allies, I am willing to make sacrifices for them - but they aren't one of my own.

[Wildecker]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

Yeah, but she didn't even try to listen. She was clearly blinded by the fact that it was Cerberus. She needed to calm the hell down and LISTEN TO ME. No, instead she has to go running back to the Alliance without hearing my side of the story.

Think it over. The most important person in your life vanishes and is declared dead. You mourn, you cry, you fight to figure out how to go on ("Sleepless in Seattle", anyone?), and then you run into him/her two years laters. Only now he/she is a member in a radical organization on the borderline to terrorism, and your side of the story starts with "Yeah, I was dead, you know. They just did their resurrection magic on me a few weeks ago."
Tell this to someone with strong religious beliefs and expect them to believe you.
With much luck they'll only consider you captured and thoroughly brainwashed.
You might just as well be a surgically altered body double acting as the real Shepard.

Or - worst option - you voluntarily defected from the Alliance two years ago and arranged for them to shoot the SR-1to pieces to cover your track, Cerberus-style, with twenty-one dead crew members as "acceptable collateral damage"!

Modifié par Wildecker, 14 mai 2010 - 09:08 .

[Beholderess]

Wildecker wrote...

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

Yeah, but she didn't even try to listen. She was clearly blinded by the fact that it was Cerberus. She needed to calm the hell down and LISTEN TO ME. No, instead she has to go running back to the Alliance without hearing my side of the story.

Think it over. The most important person in your life vanishes and is declared dead. You mourn, you cry, you fight to figure out how to go on ("Sleepless in Seattle", anyone?), and then you run into him/her two years laters. Only now he/she is a member in a radical organization on the borderline to terrorism, and your side of the story starts with "Yeah, I was dead, you know. They just did their resurrection magic on me a few weeks ago."
Tell this to someone with strong religious beliefs and expect them to believe you.
With much luck they'll only consider you captured and thoroughly brainwashed.
You might just as well be a surgically altered body double acting as the real Shepard.

Or - worst option - you voluntarily defected from the Alliance two years ago and arranged for them to shoot the SR-1to pieces to cover your track, Cerberus-style, with twenty-one dead crew members as "acceptable collateral damage"!

Options 1 and 2 are acceptable and could be interesting. However, they were not hinted at in the dialogue.
As for option 3 - that depends. Had my significant other ever showed any hints of sympathy to an organisation like Cerberus? Did s/he ever approve of them? Had s/he considered the death of people under their command as an acceptable collateral damage? If yes (renegade) - then, sure, such an idea would make sence. If not (paragon) - then I wouldn't think that of the person I knew and loved. If I did - well, that shown how well I really knew them, doesn't it? Sure, it is possible to be mistaken about someone - but I would need a ton of hard and undisputable proof to believe such a drastic change in character.

[Spectre 117]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

...I really don't want that **** Ashley back anymore.

Neither do i,im pretty comfortable with Miranda

[Dean_the_Young]

Beholderess wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Can trust: People who abandon their former convictions and ally themselves with an extremist group that has actively harmed their people, all for the sake of a man who may or may not be a clone/control chip zombie.

Can't trust: People who don't join extremist groups that do the above.

Can trust: Those who are willing to put their own trust in me, for trust is only valid if it's mutual. Those who will watch my back and not leave me to fend for myself at the time of greatest trouble.

Can't trust: Those who cannot trust me, who are all to willing to believe the worst and assume the worst about me. Those who will abandon me at the darkest hour.

It doesn't make them bad people in my eyes, by the way. It simply puts then into the same category as the Council, C-sec, Udina etc. Allies, sure, and (as a paragon) I tend to act in their interests and respect them - while not relying on them too much, not expecting them to offer much assistance (if any) and still being prepared to act without their knowlege  or even against their orders if nessesary. They are allies, I am willing to make sacrifices for them - but they aren't one of my own.

1) You died. Really. There are eye witnesses about it.
2) There's no guarantee you're even you.
3) You could very well be control-chiped/mind-controled.
4) Rather than join with your own (you know, the Alliance), you hid and worked with the enemy (Cerberus, which you led them against). Seriously out of character, reinforcing 2 and 3.

People who would join dead men who have changed sides and could well be under compulsion aren't exibiting any sort of healthy trust. That's more akin to unhealthy dependence. Garrus pretty much says the reason he doesn't object is because he's having a crisis of confidence after his mistakes, and so is in no position to question you. He threw away his moral compass. Tali doesn't even have that excuse, but then her entire romance path paints her as someone with a serious hero-complex.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2010 - 02:29 .

[epoch_]

This thread makes me rage.

[epoch_]

It needs an ash hug, methinks.

[Dean_the_Young]

An epoch rage for the ages?



Sorry, couldn't resist.

[smecky-kitteh]

Obsidian Thirteen wrote...

...I really don't want that **** Ashley back anymore.

just out of curiosity. who are you going to romance now?

[Fiannawolf]

I still stand by my desire that Ash should have rifle butted shep in the head and Specter napped the commander back to the Alliance. Yep!

[Fiery Phoenix]

Fiannawolf, you have the finest signature I've ever seen anywhere. I was actually laughing out loud when I first read it. lol

[Beholderess]

Fiannawolf wrote...

I still stand by my desire that Ash should have rifle butted shep in the head and Specter napped the commander back to the Alliance. Yep!

Actually, I would be more than happy to return to Alliance - if the game allowed it.
But I still think that it's not fair for the game to punish the player for an actions they had completely no control over.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why not? It happened all first game with the Council.



Mass Effect isn't a free-form RPG. Plot happens.



Personally, I would have loved an option to betray Cerberus and rejoin the Alliance as a hero and reunited with your loved one... followed by a cutscene of Reapers in the Citadel, and a story-progressing hint of the human reaper opening the Citadel relay.

[Beholderess]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why not? It happened all first game with the Council.

Mass Effect isn't a free-form RPG. Plot happens.

Personally, I would have loved an option to betray Cerberus and rejoin the Alliance as a hero and reunited with your loved one... followed by a cutscene of Reapers in the Citadel, and a story-progressing hint of the human reaper opening the Citadel relay.

The opinions of Council doesn't matter a tiny bit. If anything, their constant criticism is a comic relief. Horizon situation is completely different, cos' their reactions matter, and it feels like an obvios player punch. And don't make me started on how they are trying to guilt-trip the player in email. Oh, I've felt so bad without you, oh, I still can't believe you've joined Cerberus, oh, had that night even met anything for you...What the heck I, as a player, was supposed to do about it?

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course the opinions of the Council matter. They mattered a great deal, and were the reason Shepard had to commit treason to save the universe. You were punished for actions the game made you do.



As the player? Realize that the universe doesn't revolve about Shepard, and not everyone is a tool waiting to become dependent on your to resolve their family/emotional problems. You can be judged for your actions, and you were.



No one forced you to get off that station, after all. You can always choose not to progress with Cerberus.

[Beholderess]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course the opinions of the Council matter. They mattered a great deal, and were the reason Shepard had to commit treason to save the universe. You were punished for actions the game made you do.

As the player? Realize that the universe doesn't revolve about Shepard, and not everyone is a tool waiting to become dependent on your to resolve their family/emotional problems. You can be judged for your actions, and you were.

No one forced you to get off that station, after all. You can always choose not to progress with Cerberus.

And not play the game at all? Moot point.

[sagefic]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well see it from her perspective, you've been dead for two years and now with an organization that has been classified as rogue by her superiors?

this.

what would *you* do if a person you loved died - then rumors abounded that they weren't dead and had joined the taliban? or a white supremacist cult up in the backwoods somewhere? (a politically savvy and scientifically advance white supremacist cult, to boot)

you tell everyone "hello no! my love would never do that!" but then one day, you run into them. they ARE alive. they ARE with the cult and you ARE PISSED OFF.

i would be. 

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 mai 2010 - 04:19 .

[mosor]

Look. the horizon mission was intended to put a little strain on your former relationship. I don't blame Ashley/Kaiden's reaction. They don't have your perspective, you're working for what they believe is a terrorist organization. The shock value of seeing you must have put them off guard.



Anyway, this strain is just the writers way of giving Sheppard an excuse to romance some of the new characters they put in the game. If your heart is true to Ash, then I'm sure you can expect something more significant in ME3.



Personally, I don't romance anyone on my main character. I prefer to focus on the mission.

[Dean_the_Young]

Beholderess wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course the opinions of the Council matter. They mattered a great deal, and were the reason Shepard had to commit treason to save the universe. You were punished for actions the game made you do.

As the player? Realize that the universe doesn't revolve about Shepard, and not everyone is a tool waiting to become dependent on your to resolve their family/emotional problems. You can be judged for your actions, and you were.

No one forced you to get off that station, after all. You can always choose not to progress with Cerberus.

And not play the game at all? Moot point.

Then accept that your Shepard chose to work with Cerberus, and accept the rammifications accordingly.

[Beholderess]

mosor wrote...

Look. the horizon mission was intended to put a little strain on your former relationship. I don't blame Ashley/Kaiden's reaction. They don't have your perspective, you're working for what they believe is a terrorist organization. The shock value of seeing you must have put them off guard.

Anyway, this strain is just the writers way of giving Sheppard an excuse to romance some of the new characters they put in the game. If your heart is true to Ash, then I'm sure you can expect something more significant in ME3.

Personally, I don't romance anyone on my main character. I prefer to focus on the mission.

I understand the intention of the writers.
However, I can't think of what happened as of a little strain. For me, it is a point when your former romance interest firmly tells you that no, you no longer have anything in common. I can't think abouut romancing anyone in ME2 after that point as of cheating - to cheat, one has to be in relationship in the first place.
Granted, my maleshep is still staying with Ash - but I consider it an incredibly generous and hopelessly romantic jesture. Not the right one.

[syllogi]

Beholderess wrote...

mosor wrote...

Look. the horizon mission was intended to put a little strain on your former relationship. I don't blame Ashley/Kaiden's reaction. They don't have your perspective, you're working for what they believe is a terrorist organization. The shock value of seeing you must have put them off guard.

Anyway, this strain is just the writers way of giving Sheppard an excuse to romance some of the new characters they put in the game. If your heart is true to Ash, then I'm sure you can expect something more significant in ME3.

Personally, I don't romance anyone on my main character. I prefer to focus on the mission.

I understand the intention of the writers.
However, I can't think of what happened as of a little strain. For me, it is a point when your former romance interest firmly tells you that no, you no longer have anything in common. I can't think abouut romancing anyone in ME2 after that point as of cheating - to cheat, one has to be in relationship in the first place.
Granted, my maleshep is still staying with Ash - but I consider it an incredibly generous and hopelessly romantic jesture. Not the right one.

You appear to expect Ashley/Kaidan, who are fictional characters in a game, to have more information than your character, Shepard, was giving them, and to react in a way that is metagaming.  As said above, Garrus joins your squad because he has nothing to lose, and Tali joins because she has blind faith -- which is shown to be a bad thing in her loyalty quest in regards to her father.  Ashley and Kaidan are loyal Alliance soldiers, and TIM was feeding the Alliance rumors about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus...why would they just drop their lives and follow you, given the lines spoken by Shepard on Horizon? 

We all have to accept that the game railroads our Shepards down a certain path that we may not like, but Ashley and Kaidan are also being railroaded, for the sake of the plot, in a way which is consistent with their past characterizations.

[Beholderess]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course the opinions of the Council matter. They mattered a great deal, and were the reason Shepard had to commit treason to save the universe. You were punished for actions the game made you do.

As the player? Realize that the universe doesn't revolve about Shepard, and not everyone is a tool waiting to become dependent on your to resolve their family/emotional problems. You can be judged for your actions, and you were.

No one forced you to get off that station, after all. You can always choose not to progress with Cerberus.

And not play the game at all? Moot point.

Then accept that your Shepard chose to work with Cerberus, and accept the rammifications accordingly.

Oh, I do. But I don't have like them, or think that they are deserved. And Ash/Kaidan cab both blow themselwes up on nuke=)))

Seriosly, though. If they are going to be squadmates in ME3, I hope there will be an option not to accept them.