310 réponses à ce sujet

[Commissar Gash]

I hope if they make a squadmate out of Ashley you can refuse or even kill her (preferably with the M-920 Cain).



Ahsley: Shepard I'm sorry of what I've said to you, I forgive you for joining Cwerberus and I love you. I want to join your squad.

Shepard: I don't think so, I'm done with you Allaince types, you can't be trusted. *Shepard kisses Miranda and then walks away*

[mosor]

Beholderess wrote...

mosor wrote...

Look. the horizon mission was intended to put a little strain on your former relationship. I don't blame Ashley/Kaiden's reaction. They don't have your perspective, you're working for what they believe is a terrorist organization. The shock value of seeing you must have put them off guard.

Anyway, this strain is just the writers way of giving Sheppard an excuse to romance some of the new characters they put in the game. If your heart is true to Ash, then I'm sure you can expect something more significant in ME3.

Personally, I don't romance anyone on my main character. I prefer to focus on the mission.

I understand the intention of the writers.
However, I can't think of what happened as of a little strain. For me, it is a point when your former romance interest firmly tells you that no, you no longer have anything in common. I can't think abouut romancing anyone in ME2 after that point as of cheating - to cheat, one has to be in relationship in the first place.
Granted, my maleshep is still staying with Ash - but I consider it an incredibly generous and hopelessly romantic jesture. Not the right one.

I think the cheating accusation comes more from forum fans than bioware writers.

[Beholderess]

TeenZombie wrote...

You appear to expect Ashley/Kaidan, who are fictional characters in a game, to have more information than your character, Shepard, was giving them, and to react in a way that is metagaming.  As said above, Garrus joins your squad because he has nothing to lose, and Tali joins because she has blind faith -- which is shown to be a bad thing in her loyalty quest in regards to her father.  Ashley and Kaidan are loyal Alliance soldiers, and TIM was feeding the Alliance rumors about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus...why would they just drop their lives and follow you, given the lines spoken by Shepard on Horizon? 

We all have to accept that the game railroads our Shepards down a certain path that we may not like, but Ashley and Kaidan are also being railroaded, for the sake of the plot, in a way which is consistent with their past characterizations.

I never said that they have to drop whatever they are doing and immediately join Shepard's squad. You might notice that I am not upset the slightest bit about Wrex not joining, and only a little bit annoyed about Liara (but that's more because of the personality shift, not because she stays where she is).
What I expected of Kaidan and Ash is to think better about Shepard. Just like Anderson does - he is very much worried about Cerberus connection, he is wary of them, he even keeps information secret from Shep because on an unfortunate association - but he doesn't doubt Shep him/herself. Blind trust? No. But no jumping around and screaming "Traitor!!!!!" either.

[Beholderess]

mosor wrote...

I think the cheating accusation comes more from forum fans than bioware writers.

Hmm, I believe I've seen it mentioned somewhere that it's Bioware writers who called picking new LI in ME2 "cheating". In some post about continuation of ME1 and ME2 romances in ME3.
But I can be easily mistaken about this.

[JKoopman]

I don't care what outside justifications people try to create to explain Ash/Kai's reactions towards you on Horizon... it was bad writing, plain and simple. You can sit here and try to get inside their heads all night and the simple truth will still be that the person who trusted, loved and "understood" you most from ME1 is now the person who trusts you the least in ME2.

Even Anderson, who the player didn't romance in the first game and who is now on the damn COUNCIL in ME2, trusts in Shepard enough to stick his neck out for him despite his connection to Cerberus. So why can't Ash/Kai do the same?

I saved the Council and the entire universe from the Reapers in ME1 when no one else believed in me, I demonstrated my loyalty countless times... then I died, was resurrected by Cerberus, immediately went back to the Citadel for help but the Council and the Alliance turned their backs on me and threw me to the wolves, I had no choice but to return to Cerberus and work with them (not FOR them) by virtue of the fact that no one else seemed to give a damn that human colonies were disappearing in the Terminus systems, I personally save the entire Horizon colony as well as Ash/Kai's life and what do they do? Throw a tantrum that I didn't contact them despite being dead, refuse to hear my side of the story, question my morals and accuse me of being a traitor before storming off.

The whole thing just smacks of bad writing from beginning to end.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 mai 2010 - 05:44 .

[Beholderess]

JKoopman wrote...

I don't care what outside justifications people try to create to explain Ash/Kai's reactions towards you on Horizon... it was bad writing, plain and simple. You can sit here and try to get inside their heads all night and the simple truth will still be that the person who trusted, loved and "understood" you most from ME1 is now the person who trusts you the least in ME2.

Even Anderson, who the player didn't romance in the first game and who is now on the damn COUNCIL in ME2, trusts in Shepard enough to stick his neck out for him despite his connection to Cerberus. So why can't Ash/Kai do the same?

I saved the Council and the entire universe from the Reapers in ME1 when no one else believed in me, I demonstrated my loyalty countless times... then I died, was resurrected by Cerberus, immediately went back to the Citadel for help but the Council and the Alliance turned their backs on me and threw me to the wolves, I had no choice but to return to Cerberus and work with them (not FOR them) by virtue of the fact that no one else seemed to give a damn that human colonies were disappearing in the Terminus systems, I personally save the entire Horizon colony as well as Ash/Kai's life and what do they do? Throw a tantrum that I didn't contact them despite being dead, refuse to hear my side of the story, question my morals and accuse me of being a traitor before storming off.

The whole thing just smacks of bad writing from beginning to end.

This, this, this, 1000 times this.

[VutaatVerd]

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

Maybe you should read her e-mail she sends, and be more sympathetic to her feelings.

I don't think Funkcase would mind me borrowing this from him.

[Terraneaux]

 What you guys have to remember is that Ash (and Kaiden) are not real people, they are in fact characters in a work of fiction, a work of fiction that isn't intended to be a deep psychological analysis of why people behave the way they do and whether or not love can overcome ideological differences.  You have to look at it more in terms of what that scene contributed to the plot; the purpose of that scene was to break ties you had with ME1 characters and force you more onto Cerberus's side.  

[VampireCommando]

gashgfjaskgfkagh wrote...

I hope if they make a squadmate out of Ashley you can refuse or even kill her (preferably with the M-920 Cain).

Ahsley: Shepard I'm sorry of what I've said to you, I forgive you for joining Cwerberus and I love you. I want to join your squad.
Shepard: I don't think so, I'm done with you Allaince types, you can't be trusted. *Shepard kisses Miranda and then walks away*

This

i'd love to see Ash's face and reaction

[Nivenus]

JKoopman wrote...

I don't care what outside justifications people try to create to explain Ash/Kai's reactions towards you on Horizon... it was bad writing, plain and simple. You can sit here and try to get inside their heads all night and the simple truth will still be that the person who trusted, loved and "understood" you most from ME1 is now the person who trusts you the least in ME2.

Even Anderson, who the player didn't romance in the first game and who is now on the damn COUNCIL in ME2, trusts in Shepard enough to stick his neck out for him despite his connection to Cerberus. So why can't Ash/Kai do the same?

I saved the Council and the entire universe from the Reapers in ME1 when no one else believed in me, I demonstrated my loyalty countless times... then I died, was resurrected by Cerberus, immediately went back to the Citadel for help but the Council and the Alliance turned their backs on me and threw me to the wolves, I had no choice but to return to Cerberus and work with them (not FOR them) by virtue of the fact that no one else seemed to give a damn that human colonies were disappearing in the Terminus systems, I personally save the entire Horizon colony as well as Ash/Kai's life and what do they do? Throw a tantrum that I didn't contact them despite being dead, refuse to hear my side of the story, question my morals and accuse me of being a traitor before storming off.

The whole thing just smacks of bad writing from beginning to end.

I 100% disagree. I never thought it was bad writing, even when it initially happened. I was unhappy, yes, but I also admired BioWare for keeping the characters consistent with themselves and not having them automatically fall into your arms with happy enthusiasm.

[Fiery Phoenix]

JKoopman wrote...

I don't care what outside justifications people try to create to explain Ash/Kai's reactions towards you on Horizon... it was bad writing, plain and simple. You can sit here and try to get inside their heads all night and the simple truth will still be that the person who trusted, loved and "understood" you most from ME1 is now the person who trusts you the least in ME2.

Even Anderson, who the player didn't romance in the first game and who is now on the damn COUNCIL in ME2, trusts in Shepard enough to stick his neck out for him despite his connection to Cerberus. So why can't Ash/Kai do the same?

I saved the Council and the entire universe from the Reapers in ME1 when no one else believed in me, I demonstrated my loyalty countless times... then I died, was resurrected by Cerberus, immediately went back to the Citadel for help but the Council and the Alliance turned their backs on me and threw me to the wolves, I had no choice but to return to Cerberus and work with them (not FOR them) by virtue of the fact that no one else seemed to give a damn that human colonies were disappearing in the Terminus systems, I personally save the entire Horizon colony as well as Ash/Kai's life and what do they do? Throw a tantrum that I didn't contact them despite being dead, refuse to hear my side of the story, question my morals and accuse me of being a traitor before storming off.

The whole thing just smacks of bad writing from beginning to end.

I felt exactly the same after reuniting with Ashley.... until I received her email shortly thereafter. In other words, I respectfully disagree. I have a feeling that, especially if you don't cheat on her, Ashley will be Shepard's right hand in ME3. Mark my words.

[VampireCommando]

I'm just wondering though, for those have use that have in essense 'cheated' -and i use that term lightly- on Ash but not because of just getting sex but for those of us that have found a better LI, i for instance think that my Shep and Miri are a perfect match together so i'll be staying with her, but do you think there is gonna be anyway we can let Ash down without hurting her feelings and remaning friends?

[Fiery Phoenix]

VampireCommando wrote...

I'm just wondering though, for those have use that have in essense 'cheated' -and i use that term lightly- on Ash but not because of just getting sex but for those of us that have found a better LI, i for instance think that my Shep and Miri are a perfect match together so i'll be staying with her, but do you think there is gonna be anyway we can let Ash down without hurting her feelings and remaning friends?

Unfortunately not. As soon as you've fallen in love with any of the ME2 love interests, your relationship with Ashley is compromised (hinted on when her picture is turned down). Casey Hudson confirmed in a previous interview that that will have consequences in ME3, though to what extent has yet to be revealed. Maybe we will be able to straighten things out with her in ME3, but you never know.

[VampireCommando]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

VampireCommando wrote...

I'm just wondering though, for those have use that have in essense 'cheated' -and i use that term lightly- on Ash but not because of just getting sex but for those of us that have found a better LI, i for instance think that my Shep and Miri are a perfect match together so i'll be staying with her, but do you think there is gonna be anyway we can let Ash down without hurting her feelings and remaning friends?

Unfortunately not. As soon as you've fallen in love with any of the ME2 love interests, your relationship with Ashley is compromised (hinted on when her picture is turned down). Casey Hudson confirmed in a previous interview that that will have consequences in ME3, though to what extent has yet to be revealed. Maybe we will be able to straighten things out with her in ME3, but you never know.

hmmm i would just hate to see someone die or a huge concequence like a planet get destoryed with millions of inhabitants just because Ash was to busy arguing with Shep and Miri and eeling sorry for her self because she and him had broke up only for him to fall for someone else but like you said, Ash being as fiery as she is i doubt it will be back to normal, even in the best situation it would be akward i think and Miri and Ash will never really get along let alone trust each other. its just sad that it will probs come to something like this 

[Terraneaux]

The frustrating thing is that Shep name drops Cerberus really early in the conversation, instead of being more tactful about it. That whole scene was written with one intent: get Kaiden/Ash mad at you, regardless of player choices.

[JKoopman]

Nivenus wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I don't care what outside justifications people try to create to explain Ash/Kai's reactions towards you on Horizon... it was bad writing, plain and simple. You can sit here and try to get inside their heads all night and the simple truth will still be that the person who trusted, loved and "understood" you most from ME1 is now the person who trusts you the least in ME2.

Even Anderson, who the player didn't romance in the first game and who is now on the damn COUNCIL in ME2, trusts in Shepard enough to stick his neck out for him despite his connection to Cerberus. So why can't Ash/Kai do the same?

I saved the Council and the entire universe from the Reapers in ME1 when no one else believed in me, I demonstrated my loyalty countless times... then I died, was resurrected by Cerberus, immediately went back to the Citadel for help but the Council and the Alliance turned their backs on me and threw me to the wolves, I had no choice but to return to Cerberus and work with them (not FOR them) by virtue of the fact that no one else seemed to give a damn that human colonies were disappearing in the Terminus systems, I personally save the entire Horizon colony as well as Ash/Kai's life and what do they do? Throw a tantrum that I didn't contact them despite being dead, refuse to hear my side of the story, question my morals and accuse me of being a traitor before storming off.

The whole thing just smacks of bad writing from beginning to end.

I 100% disagree. I never thought it was bad writing, even when it initially happened. I was unhappy, yes, but I also admired BioWare for keeping the characters consistent with themselves and not having them automatically fall into your arms with happy enthusiasm.

You consider your former love interest cutting you off, ignoring your explanations, turning their back on you after you saved not just their life but the lives of everyone else in the colony, and no longer trusting in your morals and judgement when not 2 years ago you nigh single-handedly saved the Council and the entire universe from certain destruction at the hands of the reapers to be... staying consistent with their character?

Anderson stayed consistent with his character. "I don't agree with your choice of allies but I believe in you, Shepard, and I trust you enough to know you wouldn't be doing this without a damn good reason. I just can't be a part of it, sorry. Good luck and be careful." Ash/Kai's reaction was just... irrational.

And it made me hate her almost as much as I hated the turian Councilor after his infamous "Ah yes, "Reapers"..." remark.

[Markinator_123]

gashgfjaskgfkagh wrote...

I hope if they make a squadmate out of Ashley you can refuse or even kill her (preferably with the M-920 Cain).

Ahsley: Shepard I'm sorry of what I've said to you, I forgive you for joining Cwerberus and I love you. I want to join your squad.
Shepard: I don't think so, I'm done with you Allaince types, you can't be trusted. *Shepard kisses Miranda and then walks away*

I really hope both Kaidan/Ashley are optional. A situation like this would be priceless. Ashley blew up on Virmire for me (and yes I play as a Male Shepard). As a result, I saw Kaidan on Horizon. I would like ME3 to go like this.

Kaidan: Hey Commander I am sorry I called you a traitor. I would like to once again fight by your side.

Shepard: Go kill yourself Kaidan you useless douchebag.

In fact, I would not mind exchanging lethal gunfire with Kaidan in our next encounter in ME3. As you can see, the situation on Virmire for me was not who to save but who to kill. Blowing up Ashley was like getting rid of a serious problem.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 14 mai 2010 - 07:57 .

[Nivenus]

JKoopman wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I 100% disagree. I never thought it was bad writing, even when it initially happened. I was unhappy, yes, but I also admired BioWare for keeping the characters consistent with themselves and not having them automatically fall into your arms with happy enthusiasm.

You consider your former love interest cutting you off, ignoring your explanations, turning their back on you after you saved not just their life but the lives of everyone else in the colony, and no longer trusting in your morals and judgement when not 2 years ago you nigh single-handedly saved the Council and the entire universe from certain destruction at the hands of the reapers to be... staying consistent with their character?

Anderson stayed consistent with his character. "I don't agree with your choice of allies but I believe in you, Shepard, and I trust you enough to know you wouldn't be doing this without a damn good reason. I just can't be a part of it, sorry. Good luck and be careful." Ash/Kai's reaction was just... irrational.

And it made me hate her almost as much as I hated the turian Councilor after his infamous "Ah yes, "Reapers"..." remark.

Anderson's in a position that neither Ashley nor Kaidan are in. They can't simply leave the Alliance and join you and they don't have the big picture outlook that Anderson does as a councilor (assuming you chose him). Ashley and Kaidan have very real obligations they can't simply just abandon - nor can Anderson for that matter. You don't see him leaping to join you. And, as the emails show, they're willing to trust you given time to get over the shock.

[sagefic]

epoch_ wrote...

It needs an ash hug, methinks.

awwwwwwww!!!!

i love ash! this is <3-melting. how can you be mad at her?

also, thanks for the post of her email. again. how can you be mad at her. 

i'm just glad the virmire survivor is going to live until me3. i spent all of horizons madly running around trying to find kaidan.

edit: Epoch, i've seen this in your sig. how did you get this? did you find, or record? and how?

Modifié par sagequeen, 14 mai 2010 - 08:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]JKoopman wrote...

You consider your former love interest cutting you off, ignoring your explanations, turning their back on you after you saved not just their life but the lives of everyone else in the colony, and no longer trusting in your morals and judgement when not 2 years ago you nigh single-handedly saved the Council and the entire universe from certain destruction at the hands of the reapers to be... staying consistent with their character?[quote]Absolutely. First, your morals and judgement from two years ago were in opposing Cerberus. Cerberus certainly didn't change in the last two years: it is what it's constantly been, which was what you vocally and lethally opposed two years ago.

Short of, say, Renegade switching Kaiden's outlook, he always disagreed with you about such things, and neither love interest ever believed in people coming back from the dead. Not believing in you when you've pulled a 180 from what you previously were is pretty in character for either of them.
[quote]
Anderson stayed consistent with his character. "I don't agree with your choice of allies but I believe in you, Shepard, and I trust you enough to know you wouldn't be doing this without a damn good reason. I just can't be a part of it, sorry. Good luck and be careful." Ash/Kai's reaction was just... irrational.[/quote]You not liking it does not make it irrational. Anderson's faith in you borders irrational: he would give Spectre status to a man who may well be the hand puppet of a human supremacist group with a penchant for murder.

Alright, perhaps that's not irrational when you consider he'd be the human Councilor and so would benefit, but it certainly isn't a desirable trend to have in a leader or a person.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 mai 2010 - 08:11 .

[Nivenus]

Agreement with Dean the Young, who explained it better than I did.



Another thing to consider is that Shepard is clearly Anderson's protege. Believing in Shepard, in this sense, means believing in himself and that what he taught Shepard took hold and was a good thing. If Shepard falls, it reflects badly on him and I imagine he'd take it quite hard.

[Markinator_123]

sagequeen wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

It needs an ash hug, methinks.

awwwwwwww!!!!

i love ash! this is <3-melting. how can you be mad at her?

also, thanks for the post of her email. again. how can you be mad at her. 

i'm just glad the virmire survivor is going to live until me3. i spent all of horizons madly running around trying to find kaidan.

edit: Epoch, i've seen this in your sig. how did you get this? did you find, or record? and how?

Bah! I rather see Ashley melt in a collector pod.

[JKoopman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

You consider your former love interest cutting you off, ignoring your explanations, turning their back on you after you saved not just their life but the lives of everyone else in the colony, and no longer trusting in your morals and judgement when not 2 years ago you nigh single-handedly saved the Council and the entire universe from certain destruction at the hands of the reapers to be... staying consistent with their character?

Absolutely. First, your morals and judgement from two years ago were in opposing Cerberus. Cerberus certainly didn't change in the last two years: it is what it's constantly been, which was what you vocally and lethally opposed two years ago.

Short of, say, Renegade switching Kaiden's outlook, he always disagreed with you about such things, and neither love interest ever believed in people coming back from the dead. Not believing in you when you've pulled a 180 from what you previously were is pretty in character for either of them.

Anderson stayed consistent with his character. "I don't agree with your choice of allies but I believe in you, Shepard, and I trust you enough to know you wouldn't be doing this without a damn good reason. I just can't be a part of it, sorry. Good luck and be careful." Ash/Kai's reaction was just... irrational.

You not liking it does not make it irrational. Anderson's faith in you borders irrational: he would give Spectre status to a man who may well be the hand puppet of a human supremacist group with a penchant for murder.

Alright, perhaps that's not irrational when you consider he'd be the human Councilor and so would benefit, but it certainly isn't a desirable trend to have in a leader or a person.

You and I are just going to have to disagree then. For everything you've done and everything you've been through together, Ash's reaction to you on Horizon seemed wildly out of character - in fact, if you want to talk about character consistency, Ash's attitude towards aliens and human supremacy in ME1 seemed pretty well in league with Cerberus' own ideals, so her sudden attitude shift towards working with a pro-human organization seems fairly inconsisntent to me.

I saved the universe from the Reapers when no one else even believed they existed. Likewise, now here I am saving human colonies from the Collectors who, again, no one even believes are a threat (as Ash says, she and the Alliance both believed it was actually Cerberus abducting colonists). She just witnessed the Collectors make off with half the colony, and subsequently saw me fighting them off and saving everyone that was left. You'd think she'd maybe look at the big picture - the threat against humanity and my obvious desire to stop it - and cut me some slack and hear me out, especially after everything we'd been through, instead of focusing so much on which organization's logo is on my squadmate's uniform. The fact that she doesn't is why I say she's being irrational. Rome is basically burning and she's sitting there playing the fiddle.

I don't care how you want to rationalize it, Ash can go fornicate herself with a metal pole.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 mai 2010 - 09:04 .

[Gavinthelocust]

Same here, I am not taking Ash back after that. **** hardly let me talk and insisted that I'm evil, hell no I'm going back to that when I have Miranda's perfectly designed boobs.

[Nivenus]

There's a difference between a person who thinks, say, Russians are untrustworthy and somebody who leaps at the chance to join a terrorist organization that has abducted American soldiers and tortured them and happens to have an anti-Russia vibe going on. Ashley's reaction to Cerberus makes sense even in light of her prejudices.