143 réponses à ce sujet

[ClassickxD]

Archers are not known to give off high DPS. Their a class that helps the team by crippling the enemy forces. If you want to use a high DPS class, I would suggest using a templar/berserker warrior or an assassin/duelist rogue.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

I'm enjoying my Dalish Elf Warrior Archer.  Archer skills are about disruption and support.  You don't do as much damage as a dual wielding rogue or a Mage but you can pick off key enemies like Mages.  (Eg for example in the kocari wilds I used pinning shot on that first emissary allowing jory and alistair to rush him and kill him without taking any damage)

Also if you're going full Dex on an archer you're not doing it right: You need Willpower because if you're an archer you need to be using a ton of abilities (especially if you specialize as a Bard) and it's useful to take trap making (hence some cunning is required)

[NetBeansAndJava]

Ceskay wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

After reading the posts, I must agree that I may have judged archery too soon. I too thought it was worthless, but that may be because I haven't yet reached a significant level to make it effective.

However, I do propose that a build that doesn't become effective until late into the game (lvl 16 say) does require tweaking. Perhaps they should change the low lvl talents. Make them more useful like many of the mages low lvl spells.

It's hard enough to balance classes - balancing them at every stage of the game is even worse. It's fairly traditional in D&D for classes that are more powerful in the endgame (wizards, for example) to be weaker at early levels. I find Dragon Age to be similar. My first play was as a rogue, and it was awful, because I was choosing rogue stuff at the start. I find the game goes easier if you frontload for combat, then pick up the crafting and other stuff later. 

Yeah balancing is definitely difficult... which is exactly the reason so many people are up in arms discussing archery, yes?

I'm of the opinion that builds should attempt to be useful through as many lvls as possible, but I do understand that such a goal is unrealistic.  Nonetheless, any improvement to the "usefulness curve" will be welcomed with open arms as far as I'm concerned.

[TheRealIncarnal]

I've found my archers to be invaluable if you take the time to use them right.

I just love messing up mages with them. There was this one casting enemy who kept giving me trouble, as in he pretty much vaporized my party on the first go. When I reloaded, I just simply had my archer just continuously barrage him with arrows from a short bow, and he went from destroying me to being utterly useless and dead very quickly. Of course, you need to keep enemies away from your archers, but I'd recommend using "disengage" for your archer and "threaten" or "taunt" for your tank to make him a less attractive target. You know, because you can't pull back a bow when you're being stabbed in the face....

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 09 novembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[Silo99]

TheRealIncarnal wrote...

I've found my archers to be invaluable if you take the time to use them right.

I just love messing up mages with them. There was this one casting enemy who kept giving me trouble, as in he pretty much vaporized my party on the first go. When I reloaded, I just simply had my archer just continuously barrage him with arrows from a short bow, and he went from destroying me to being utterly useless and dead very quickly. Of course, you need to keep enemies away from your archers, but I'd recommend using "disengage" for your archer and "threaten" or "taunt" for your tank to make him a less attractive target. You know, because you can't pull back a bow when you're being stabbed in the face....

Archer specialization needs some love.  Your anecdote does a awesome job of making you look accomplished and the rest of us simply dimwits that fail to grasp the nuances of archer characters.

I assure you, that's not the case.

Modifié par Silo99, 09 novembre 2009 - 09:06 .

[Osprey39]

mian52 wrote...

It's pretty easy to get some good bows early on. There are several that can be found on one of the "major" quest places. Attainable at the same time as Redcliffe.

My major concern is the Archery Warrior. There's no ranger pets to help out. In fact there aren't really any good specilizations for an Archery Warrior (Berzerker requires a melee weapon, despite not saying that anywhere).

As for the whole DPS issue, yes bow DPS isn't that hot. You are not bad at CC (Shattering Shot is one of the biggest AoE stuns in the game as far as I know) and you can gank mobs pretty quick (Arrow of Slaying). But the poor debuffs do not make up for it.

My main concerns about archery are these two.

1. It blows at the start, it's pretty much useless until you get Shattershot and Arrow of Slaying (both fo wich are VERY good). I honestly find the debuffs to be fairly useless unless your fighting a boss, they aren't helpful fighting the big waves of white mobs.

2. Solo, with archery. Let's just say at one point in the game, I don't think it would have been possible for me to beat if I wasn't level 13+ when I got there.

Since the discussion here is about balance, would it be balanced to have an amazing CC ability and an instant kill shot and still have comparable damage output to classes/specs that don't have anything like that?  I'm guessing probably not. 

I really don't get the complaints.  Leliana does fine for me.  She doesn't do as much damage as my character but for someone that can stand safely at incredible range and never stops doing damage, it's not bad at all.  Also, unlike my mage staff, nothing is immune to arrows either. 

[Korva]

Madlax27 wrote...

Oh, have you even recieved your 250 damage in one hit achievement yet?

For goodness' sake, don't start with that bullcrap.

The Bioware forums used to be relatively friendly and pleasant (unless some arse decided to troll a "gay" thread to death yet again). My biggest worry with the new social site was that the automatic uploads would lead to degeneration like in the so-called WoW "community" which is a cesspool of wankers trying to out-bray each other and using Armory and achievements as "proof" how much of a "worthless gay n00b" the person they're flaming is.

Please don't prove me right in that fear.

Modifié par Korva, 12 novembre 2009 - 11:13 .

[Madlax27]

Korva wrote...

Madlax27 wrote...

Oh, have you even recieved your 250 damage in one hit achievement yet?

For goodness' sake, don't start with that bullcrap.

The Bioware forums used to be relatively friendly and pleasant (unless some arse decided to troll a "gay" thread to death yet again). My biggest worry with the new social site was that the automatic uploads would lead to degeneration like in the so-called WoW "community" which is a cesspool of wankers trying to out-bray each other and using Armory and achievements as "proof" how much of a "worthless gay n00b" the person they're flaming is.

Please don't prove me right in that fear.

Wtf?  Did you really just necro this thread just for that single sentence?

Obviously you didn't read any of my other posts because the damage was not what I was getting at in that post.  I was pointing out that the OP sounded more like a troll with every post because he was not accepting anything that ANYONE else had said.  He also had absolutely ZERO data uploaded to his account which lead me to believe he was either just a troll or he pirated the game anyway (both of which fail).

Yet you randomly bring up a single sentence that is completely misleading when you single it out like that without quoting all five of my posts.

Yeah, you like to play the hero huh?

[Lughsan35]

Equip longbow.. shoot from max range.. kill mage while mobs look around sheepishly.. one runs toward you.. shoot and kill that one...rinse and repeat..

[zulkaboom]

On the other hand, and sorry for the completely useless remark, everything is an archer's weapon

[Ultrazennn]

If archers aren't meant to be a DPS class, what are they meant to be? 

1.  The have ****** poor CC on long timers.

2.  The CC they do have is a huge agro magnet as it hits everything, but doesn't accomplish anything but getting the entire screen mad at you and a very short stun.

3.  They are paper bags if ganged by melee, which happens quite a bit, especially if you're trying to play it as a main character.

So...they can't CC, they can't tank, and they can't DPS.  I think I've spotted the problem.  This spec path needs more of a focus, make it good at something.

There are a ton of problems with the archer spec, and the ranger spec is all but worthless.  I really hope they fix/change the sustainable abilities that go poof and reset the timers every time you zone.

The funny thing about archers is, go ahead and make one, spec it full archery, don't put any points into the rogue tree, now with your awesome archer maxed character, go stand behind something with a couple of melee weapons and watch your DPS triple.

Archers *should* be a heavy DPS class, they should be a *better* single target DPS class than a mage, who brings tons more to the table in a party, and they aren't.

/shrug  Maybe the dex thing will get sorted out, and that will be the difference.  Perhaps at one point in beta, archers *did* do a lot of damage, and something got flipped in the database, it happens a lot in QA.

Once you can restealth in combat, there is some marginal use for scatter shot and restealth, but the length of time it takes to execute most archer abilities means you are usually shooting at a corpse.  By the time you get done winding up a shot, your mages and rogues have ripped through 2 or 3 enemies.  I can kill 3 enemies in the time it takes me to kill one with my archer spec, if I just throw on a couple melee weapons and stand behind mobs, that's just silly and wrong.

This doesn't have anything to do with not understanding tactics, or wanting something from previous games, it's about how this class performs in this game, and it's a confused mishmash of stuff with no real role in a party that can't be better filled by other spec choices.

The problem is a simple one to fix...either.

1.  Up the attack speed overall.

2.  Up the damage per attack.

One of those needs to be tweaked.

After playing through the game with my mage, and watching the laughable sequence that is mass paralyze, blizzard, and inferno all back to back, if archers were one shotting mobs in hard difficulty, it still wouldn't be out of whack given what else exists in the game.

[feathercoat]

If you achieve poor results with archers; don't use them.



I will not waste my time trying to teach people that won't be taught. This is the internet and everyone think they're clever and special. I am personally achieving better results with archers as damage dealers than mages. Other may not. Fortunately the game does not force you do use a certain style of build.

[eastoreispos]

I joined this conversation late, but I find it hilarious that people were complaining that archers weren't a realistic class in Oblivion and thus our minds are 'ruined' expecting archers to be dps-viable classes.



Here's some realism in the form of history:



The English were the first to field longbows, most famously at the Battle of Agincourt where an army of 1000 English men-at-arms and 5000 longbowmen inflicted over 4 thousand (some French estimates go as high as 10,000) casualties against a French army while suffering approximately 1600 casualties. Granted, it was a French army the English were fighting so that skews the figures a bit, but the longbow was responsible for absolutely decimating the heavily armored French forces.



So how exactly is it 'unrealistic' that a bow class would not be viable dps?

[eastoreispos]

Why can't rogue archers backstab when attacking with bows? What is the physical difference between sinking a dagger into someone's back and shooting them with a 3 foot arrow in said back?

[deathadder99]

I have one archer, leliana. She picks all my locks for me. While she does not do stellar damage, with critical shot and arrow of slaying she is perfect for nuking down mages. Her bard song really helps as well in long fights. My brother has a dalish elf rogue who does a lot of damage so its all about the stats. Leliana has too much wasted on Strength.

[Korva]

Madlax27 wrote...

Wtf?  Did you really just necro this thread just for that single sentence?

Forgive me for living in a different time zone and not being able to read this thread 14 hours ago ... "Necromancy" is for stuff that is dead for a long time, not a few hours.

I've read your posts and you made some perfectly good points, but that thing with the achievements was nasty and counterproductive and has zip to do with the topic. If you think he's a pirate, IMO it'd be better to report him. If you think he's a troll, don't answer him because that sort of trash thrives on any attention, good or bad.

With the sorry state this site is in, a profile does not necessarily prove anything. Updates can take days. Not to mention they can be turned off. And I for one didn't have my game registered for days because for some reason I expected it was done automatically, until I realized I couldn't post on the Spoiler forum. Maybe I was stupid that way. *shrug*

No doubt there are pirates here, and I personally wish their computers would explode because they cause nothing but problems for us honest customers. But jumping to conclusions based on one's profile page isn't the way to go IMO. And "you don't even have that achievement" really reminded me of some of the WoW-nastiness that is so commonplace there.

Yeah, you like to play the hero huh?

Whatever. I don't believe personal attacks based on one's profile page make for a good forum atmosphere, that is all. Even -- or especially -- if you're perfectly capable of making reasonable arguments which you otherwise did.

[Osprey39]

eastoreispos wrote...

I joined this conversation late, but I find it hilarious that people were complaining that archers weren't a realistic class in Oblivion and thus our minds are 'ruined' expecting archers to be dps-viable classes.

Here's some realism in the form of history:

The English were the first to field longbows, most famously at the Battle of Agincourt where an army of 1000 English men-at-arms and 5000 longbowmen inflicted over 4 thousand (some French estimates go as high as 10,000) casualties against a French army while suffering approximately 1600 casualties. Granted, it was a French army the English were fighting so that skews the figures a bit, but the longbow was responsible for absolutely decimating the heavily armored French forces.

So how exactly is it 'unrealistic' that a bow class would not be viable dps?

Ah, the good old standby of resorting to to real life examples to prove something in a video game.  Tell me, which side had wizards shooting fireballs from their fingertips?  The English?  The French?  Both?

[simpatikool]

My other character is an Archer, and all I can say is that they are really a control class. The Archer sure makes it easier for my other toons to do their job.



Shattering Shot, Pinning Shot, Arrow of slaying, whats not to love? Sten is digging.

[Memengwa]

And when have you been able to hack at someone with your sword 50 times before they die? For me Oblivion had more realism, because it took my archer/acrobat 1-2 arrows to kill the enemies.

[Cadarin]

I've had Leliana in my group from the beginning because I wanted someone to pick locks. She went from being a pretty weak (but not useless) part of the group to one my my main damage dealers. I'd say she really became a force around level 8 or so.



She regularly one shots enemies, especially after I've frozen them with Morrigan. Automatic crits+shatter = awesome.

[SheffSteel]

Agincourt wasn't WoW and neither is DAO. If you can't think in terms other than DPS/tank/healer/CC then it's understandable that you wouldn't be able to see what use an archer is. It's no biggie, it's just that your mileage has varied.



For me, an archer is the long-range sniper of choice, an excellent way of whittling down attackers before they can close to melee, and (next time I level up) a handy extra warrior in wolf shape. That's before you get to level 10... and judging by what others have posted in this thread, it gets better.

[boardnfool86]

archers are for support, one. two leliana was one shotting darkspawn with her bow in my game - she usually killed beasts before my MC-warrior could get to them



i think the archer is fine, what you lack in damage you make up for in range

[Skemte]

Arn't they already gonna buff the damage with the next patch with changing stats of bows?

[AbyssDancer]

I think Archers in any game rock always!

[Crackseed]

I'm employing the hotfix from Georg to help test it - but even before I applied it, I restarted my game to play my fave class type [Rogue-Archer] and am having an absolute blast.

I will say the one ability that makes the rogue-archer absolutely brilliant and fun to play is....combat stealth.

Being able to open up with a guaranteed auto-critting Arrow of Slaying to finish off or heavily damage one opponent, following up with critical shot, restealthing and landing another auto-critical is just way too much fun. Plus you get a ton of tactical control from what's basically a ninja-vanish to drop threat or find a better firing position.

My biggest issue atm is with the Ranger pets + rapid shot needing to be on in all fights, I have precious little stamina left so I need to pump up my willpower I think <.<

Archer is definitely viable but it takes a bit more controlling finesse. Also depends which bow type you are using and how you build stat distribution, especially if you're using the hotfix.

According to my heroic accomplishments [which haven't finished uploading yet] - my level 13 Rogue-Ranger pulls about 67% of my party DPS, with about a 78-80% hit rate. The hit rate is my biggest gripe, but it's still manageable.

Play what you enjoy - and realize that even if you're not having luck with it, that doesn't mean it's necessarily terrible. I've learned a few tricks from reading other's experiences.