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Let's hope Dragon Age 2 doesn't get casualized.


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#226
Onyx Jaguar

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CybAnt1 wrote...

1. Removing the inventory completely. 
2. Streamlining the talents/spells. 
3. The hero is a master of everything. 
4. No need for healing or lyrium potions. 
5. classes retrofitted. 


I just want to thank you, Drago, for listing the changes that they made to Mass Effect 2. I've heard many RPG players complain about the "streamlining" that happened to the game. But nobody ever discussed concretely what the changes were. (OK. Maybe there is more discussion of it in the forums above, but it's all over the place.) 

It bothered me that Mass Effect 1 came out console only first. Then was ported for PC by a different team, and never came to Mac (I wasn't running bootcamp at the time). I ended up not getting it.

Then Mass Effect 2 came out and I was about to get it but I heard people complaining about changes they had made to the game. Now I see what those changes were.

Well, I can't complain about what they "did" to ME because so far I've never played it; but I can say, yes, I hope they don't do similar things in "streamlining" DA2.



You would have to actually play both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 in order for context.  They are nothing like Dragon Age.  Some of the changes he mentioned really are not that drastic as they are completely different games from Dragon Age.

#227
CybAnt1

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Well, yes, I know it always depends on whose axe gets gored, with DA the console players feel like second-class citizens... but it seems kind of odd to me that with ME1 Bioware did the console version themselves (and it was Xbox only - no PS3), then turned to another team to port it to PC, sort of making the PC version the afterthought .... and never did a Mac version.



It just seems like it was always a console series to me to begin with. And I don't know how to say that without me sounding "elitist" against console gaming, but those who get what I mean, get what I mean. Basically designed for the simpler UI/control interface of consoles....




#228
Darth Drago

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Hollingdale wrote...

Personally I don't understand Darth Drago's post at all.

-Sorry you didn’t get it. I sometimes over simplify things only to make it more confusing. So this reply is aimed directly at you and anyone else tat didn’t get it.

These are a very few of the changes that were made for Mass Effect 2 that could easily be done to simplify or dumb down the game entirely in order to make Dragon Age 2 more accessible to the masses instead of fantasy role player gamers.

1. The loot will be removed for the game completely. Nothing will be balance or fixed so that you can get better gear when you get to higher levels. Your stuck with what you start the game with.

2. Talents and spells will be reduced to only 4 bars to choose from. Look at the Dog for how it will be for all of them. They will also be leveled up exactly the same way as Dog, getting to level up one of those every few levels. (Yes in ME2 you can level up every level but you would have to spend more points to raise a skill beyond the first box. Unlocking the 2nd box will cost you 2 points, th 3rd box 3 points and the last one 4 points. By the time you got to the level cap you could not even max out all 4 of your talents for your companions.)

For an example: Alistair will only have Templar, the top Warrior one and the top 2 Weapon and Shield talents to choose from out of his current list of talents. Templar becomes unlockabale after you do his loyalty mission.

One of those will likely be a weapon “power” Leliana will be the only one to be able to use flame arrows. Others will be exclusive talents or spells like Morrigan will be the only one to use shapeshifter but it will only be available after you do her loyalty quest.

3. The skills like coercion, trap making, herbalism and even the rogues lock picking talent are removed from the game because your character, the Warden will automatically know how to do them regardless of the class you chose for yourself.

4. Healing or lyrium potions are removed in favor of new cover combat mechanics. If you take to much damage or need to refill your health or mana/stamina bar just take cover behind one of the conveniently placed cover objects (like a fence) on the battlefield and all will be refilled in a few seconds.

5. class retrofitted. Regardless of class you will be able to wear the same armor even use the same basic weapons. Later on in the game you will suddenly be able to choose a new weapon skill to use. The explanation for why all classes can wear the same armor will be weakly explained in a bad codex entry that destroys the lore from the first DAO game.

For example: A mage will be able to use staff and daggers from the start but at that certain point will be able to choose bow, sword or 2 handed sword to use without penalty to spell casting.

Hope that clears it up for you and anyone else that I may have confused in my earlier post.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 28 mai 2010 - 09:47 .


#229
k9medusa

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That does not sound like fun to me -- people should learn how to play RPGs the "right" way =)

#230
k9medusa

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If they do not have the time to learn to role play, then their are always actions or heck'n'slash games for them. Diablo 1 & 2 is a very game, but I miss the RP part of it sometimes

#231
Zanderat

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Sylixe wrote...

How could they make the game any more casual friendly than it already is? A game of Pong requires more skill to win than this game currently does. If anything they need to make the game significantly MORE difficult or at least make the Hard and Nightmare settings actually require you to think.

The sad fact of it is that the casuals that destroy immersive games and their difficulty spend the most. Therefore they will never bite the hand that feeds them so to speak. :(

QTF.

#232
Sidney

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Not sure how a streamlined inventory system is "dumbed down". Last time I checked stock clerk wasn't the top of the line job for intellect. The inventory system stunk outloud in DAO - just like it did in BG2 or KoTOR. I'd love to see them eliminate most of the vendor trash that you get. I've got no issue looting corpses for cool stuff but stupid worn boots and the umpteenth mail shirt isn't exactly fun. JE and ME2 are the best inventory systems Bioware or any RPG game maker have ever done.



They could do with a streamlined skill set or at least a major re-working of the skills/spells. There's a lot of spells/skills I got but never used because they were part of a chain of skills and there was no real logical reason for X to precede Y it just did. Don't know why you want to force players to take skills or spells they don't want. I can understand putting level restrictions on certain spells/skills but not creating these rigid skill chains. Let me pick and choose from those spells I want.



The more the developers can do to get the "game" out of my way the happier I am. I want to play a role, not play a paper doll screen and skills screen.

#233
Hollingdale

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Darth Drago wrote...


Hollingdale wrote...

Personally I don't understand Darth Drago's post at all.

-Sorry you didn’t get it. I sometimes over simplify things only to make it more confusing. So this reply is aimed directly at you and anyone else tat didn’t get it.

These are a very few of the changes that were made for Mass Effect 2 that could easily be done to simplify or dumb down the game entirely in order to make Dragon Age 2 more accessible to the masses instead of fantasy role player gamers.

1. The loot will be removed for the game completely. Nothing will be balance or fixed so that you can get better gear when you get to higher levels. Your stuck with what you start the game with.

2. Talents and spells will be reduced to only 4 bars to choose from. Look at the Dog for how it will be for all of them. They will also be leveled up exactly the same way as Dog, getting to level up one of those every few levels. (Yes in ME2 you can level up every level but you would have to spend more points to raise a skill beyond the first box. Unlocking the 2nd box will cost you 2 points, th 3rd box 3 points and the last one 4 points. By the time you got to the level cap you could not even max out all 4 of your talents for your companions.)

For an example: Alistair will only have Templar, the top Warrior one and the top 2 Weapon and Shield talents to choose from out of his current list of talents. Templar becomes unlockabale after you do his loyalty mission.

One of those will likely be a weapon “power” Leliana will be the only one to be able to use flame arrows. Others will be exclusive talents or spells like Morrigan will be the only one to use shapeshifter but it will only be available after you do her loyalty quest.

3. The skills like coercion, trap making, herbalism and even the rogues lock picking talent are removed from the game because your character, the Warden will automatically know how to do them regardless of the class you chose for yourself.

4. Healing or lyrium potions are removed in favor of new cover combat mechanics. If you take to much damage or need to refill your health or mana/stamina bar just take cover behind one of the conveniently placed cover objects (like a fence) on the battlefield and all will be refilled in a few seconds.

5. class retrofitted. Regardless of class you will be able to wear the same armor even use the same basic weapons. Later on in the game you will suddenly be able to choose a new weapon skill to use. The explanation for why all classes can wear the same armor will be weakly explained in a bad codex entry that destroys the lore from the first DAO game.

For example: A mage will be able to use staff and daggers from the start but at that certain point will be able to choose bow, sword or 2 handed sword to use without penalty to spell casting.

Hope that clears it up for you and anyone else that I may have confused in my earlier post.


The thing is Mass Effect 2 would have been a solid and fun game even without any levels and only default equipment.

It can afford streamlining because the actual combat (which owned that of the first game pretty hard, it was faster tougher and much more varied thanks to the many different weapons, which were still quite balanced) alone posesses a lot of depth. I don't think comparing a cover style fps with a game that plays like a classic wrpg is very fair.

I also think the risk of a similar streamlining happening to Dragon Age is minimal as it would seriously hurt the game unless they turn it into some sort of third person actiongame (which seems even less likely). That being said I do think they can do with removing some of the sustained modes and instead adding more passive bonuses like weapon specializations for instance.

#234
Tirigon

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Darth Drago wrote...


1. Removing the inventory completely.
Doesn’t Dragon Age have a large inventory of stuff to collect and stores that don’t sell much that actually is an improvement over what you get from a quest? Do we really need all that random loot and all those sets of armor?

Considering I´m not using a single bormal armor through the entire game but always use armor from mods or the vanilla highend sets, I wouldn´t mind.

2. Streamlining the talents/spells.
Doesn’t each class in DAO have a long list of spells/talents and skills to choose from? Surely streamlining most of them out of the game would make the game easier for gamers to play the game, right?

Wouldn´t be necessarily bad. Especially for weapon skills and some specs there are a lot of useless wastes of skillpoints for skills that only improve the one you already have.

3. The hero is a master of everything. Remember all those skills you can choose from? Gone. You don’t need them since you’re a master of them all. No need to bring someone who can pick locks, or make potions or traps since you can do that. That’s what happened in ME2. The hero of the game is a master at hacking and safecracking.

Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

I would LOVE that. I want to have the party I like, without being forced to always have a special guy because noone else can open the damned door, Imo they should remove locks entirely - it simply doesn´t make sense. I mean, a mage can blow up an entire horde of enemies with a single spell, but can´t blow up a door? Ridiculous. And why can´t my twohander strike a door open if he can knock multiple strong enemies down with a single sweep? Ridiculous, too.

4. No need for healing or lyrium potions. Now all you will have to do is duck out of combat for a short time and you’ll magically replenish both health and stamina/mana. You also wont be able to heal you companions during battle but can resurrect them once their dead. Another change made in ME2.

What could possible go wrong with this idea? Oh, maybe its because it will require the developers to redo the combat system of the game resulting in a game that is nothing better than a Dynasty Warriors game.

Admittedly, this would suck, but it was great in ME. It won´t happen in DA2, though, so stop b!tching.

5. classes retrofitted. In ME1 each of your selectable classes gave each one a unique feel to them. A soldier (warrior) could use all the weapons and armor An Adept (mage) had all the biotic powers but was limited to a pistol and light armor. A engineer (rogue) had al the tech skills but was limited to light armor and a pistol. In ME2 everyone wears the same armor, your Adept and the Engineer get to use SMG’s along with the pistol but at a certain moment in the game can choose to suddenly be trained in the sniper rifle, assault rifle or a shotgun. wouldn’t it feel a bit out of place for a rogue or mage to suddenly be able to use a 2-handed weapon?

Why play a warrior when you can play a mage or rogue that gets a lot of the warrior benefits? Lets generalize each class into a middle of the road mish mash of a concoction of its former class. No need to play each class differently since now they all can be played the same basic way. Don’t worry about your companions either since they will all be average at best and not bring any unique talents to a battle.

1) classes in ME2 are more different from each other than in ME1 due to unique skills like Vanguard´s charge, or infiltrator´s cloak.
2) It would be best to remove classes entirely. They are a useless limitation of the plyers freedom. You should simply have ALL available talents. You would then build your own class as you can have only a little part of them.
But why, for example, should I not be able to play a dualwielder / mage hybrid? And why should my Twohander be unable to sneak and backstab if need be?
Let the player decide how he plays, not the class.


-Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins are very similar games. The only real difference is one is a sci-fi game the other a fantasy one. All of those little changes they did for ME2 I can see them easily pulling to put into DAO2.

In my opinion ME2 was maimed beyond recognition. Mass Effect 1 and 2 were made by the same people and company (BioWare of course) to bad they don’t play or even look like they were. I expect better for Dragon Age 2.

Imo, ME2 was a lot better than ME1 in every aspect except story and romances. And even that was not objectively bad, only if you compare it to the awesome ME1 which is easily one of the best games ever storywise.

#235
asaiasai

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Darth Drago wrote...


Hollingdale wrote...

Personally I don't understand Darth Drago's post at all.

-Sorry you didn’t get it. I sometimes over simplify things only to make it more confusing. So this reply is aimed directly at you and anyone else tat didn’t get it.

These are a very few of the changes that were made for Mass Effect 2 that could easily be done to simplify or dumb down the game entirely in order to make Dragon Age 2 more accessible to the masses instead of fantasy role player gamers.

1. The loot will be removed for the game completely. Nothing will be balance or fixed so that you can get better gear when you get to higher levels. Your stuck with what you start the game with.

2. Talents and spells will be reduced to only 4 bars to choose from. Look at the Dog for how it will be for all of them. They will also be leveled up exactly the same way as Dog, getting to level up one of those every few levels. (Yes in ME2 you can level up every level but you would have to spend more points to raise a skill beyond the first box. Unlocking the 2nd box will cost you 2 points, th 3rd box 3 points and the last one 4 points. By the time you got to the level cap you could not even max out all 4 of your talents for your companions.)

For an example: Alistair will only have Templar, the top Warrior one and the top 2 Weapon and Shield talents to choose from out of his current list of talents. Templar becomes unlockabale after you do his loyalty mission.

One of those will likely be a weapon “power” Leliana will be the only one to be able to use flame arrows. Others will be exclusive talents or spells like Morrigan will be the only one to use shapeshifter but it will only be available after you do her loyalty quest.

3. The skills like coercion, trap making, herbalism and even the rogues lock picking talent are removed from the game because your character, the Warden will automatically know how to do them regardless of the class you chose for yourself.

4. Healing or lyrium potions are removed in favor of new cover combat mechanics. If you take to much damage or need to refill your health or mana/stamina bar just take cover behind one of the conveniently placed cover objects (like a fence) on the battlefield and all will be refilled in a few seconds.

5. class retrofitted. Regardless of class you will be able to wear the same armor even use the same basic weapons. Later on in the game you will suddenly be able to choose a new weapon skill to use. The explanation for why all classes can wear the same armor will be weakly explained in a bad codex entry that destroys the lore from the first DAO game.

For example: A mage will be able to use staff and daggers from the start but at that certain point will be able to choose bow, sword or 2 handed sword to use without penalty to spell casting.

Hope that clears it up for you and anyone else that I may have confused in my earlier post.


Pretty much everything that sucks about ME2 is listed here but you forgot that arrows will have to be scrounged up after every encounter, and if your out of arrows you will be forced to switch weapons in the middle of combat. You will only be able to use a sword for a limited time as it will wear our, go dull, or some other lame ass excuse to force the player to use different weapons, which by the way they will have no control over what types they carry.

The entire game will consist of nothing but missions/quest that entail making the squadmates/party members happy so that when you face the final battle there will be a specific formula to follow, make sure the upgrades are done, the members are loyal, assign the correct ones for specific roles and the happy ending can be had by all. 

ME2 was dumbed down to appeal to i have no idea who they were aiming for, probably people with a low attention spans you know the, once a friend and i were drinking beers and he was really drunk then this dog walked by and he had a red nose it was kind of funny because i said to my mom that the dog looked just like uncle ralph who took me camping when i was a kid, type. Very little thought processes, very little variation, very little story depth, very little customization, very little of anything that made DAO so good. I am wondering if we DAO fans can expect this kind of simplification in order to appeal to a broader market in any future installment of the DAO series, it does seem to be the case when EA is involved, pump out crap as fast as you can to cash in on the franchise while people are still unaware of how bad it sucks, bankrupting the franchise and the company, while EA continues to move from one succesful franchise to another like locusts. This is exactly what happened to ME2 this is not middle child syndrome it is EA syndrome.

Electronic Arts ruining games for everybody for the last 10 years.
Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 29 mai 2010 - 01:46 .


#236
Tirigon

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Darth Drago wrote...


1. The loot will be removed for the game completely. Nothing will be balance or fixed so that you can get better gear when you get to higher levels. Your stuck with what you start the game with.

2. Talents and spells will be reduced to only 4 bars to choose from. Look at the Dog for how it will be for all of them. They will also be leveled up exactly the same way as Dog, getting to level up one of those every few levels. (Yes in ME2 you can level up every level but you would have to spend more points to raise a skill beyond the first box. Unlocking the 2nd box will cost you 2 points, th 3rd box 3 points and the last one 4 points. By the time you got to the level cap you could not even max out all 4 of your talents for your companions.)

For an example: Alistair will only have Templar, the top Warrior one and the top 2 Weapon and Shield talents to choose from out of his current list of talents. Templar becomes unlockabale after you do his loyalty mission.

One of those will likely be a weapon “power” Leliana will be the only one to be able to use flame arrows. Others will be exclusive talents or spells like Morrigan will be the only one to use shapeshifter but it will only be available after you do her loyalty quest.

3. The skills like coercion, trap making, herbalism and even the rogues lock picking talent are removed from the game because your character, the Warden will automatically know how to do them regardless of the class you chose for yourself.

4. Healing or lyrium potions are removed in favor of new cover combat mechanics. If you take to much damage or need to refill your health or mana/stamina bar just take cover behind one of the conveniently placed cover objects (like a fence) on the battlefield and all will be refilled in a few seconds.

5. class retrofitted. Regardless of class you will be able to wear the same armor even use the same basic weapons. Later on in the game you will suddenly be able to choose a new weapon skill to use. The explanation for why all classes can wear the same armor will be weakly explained in a bad codex entry that destroys the lore from the first DAO game.

For example: A mage will be able to use staff and daggers from the start but at that certain point will be able to choose bow, sword or 2 handed sword to use without penalty to spell casting.
Hope that clears it up for you and anyone else that I may have confused in my earlier post.


Sorry but that´s bullsh!t. BioWare might have done some things one can rightfully consider sub-optimal (to put it lightly) but they surely know better than to do such a crap. All these changes were very good for Mass Effect, but they don´t work for DAO.

Why?

Because Mass Effect is basically a Shooter-RPG, and in the second they fixed the things that made combat in ME1 awful.
I´d be so bold and say that ME2 is, as a shooter, easily one of the best and puts the likes of Call of Duty totally to shame.

DAO is more a "classical" RPG with an entirely different combat system.


Comparing them is like comparing submarines to planes.

Modifié par Tirigon, 29 mai 2010 - 01:49 .


#237
Vicious

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Sorry but that´s bullsh!t. BioWare might have done some things one can rightfully consider sub-optimal (to put it lightly) but they surely know better than to do such a crap. All these changes were very good for Mass Effect, but they don´t work for DAO.




Comparing them is like comparing submarines to planes.




End of issue.

#238
Darth Drago

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Tirigon wrote...

Considering I´m not using a single bormal armor through the entire game but always use armor from mods or the vanilla highend sets, I wouldn´t mind.

-So the rest of the non-modded gaming world should suffer?


Tirigon wrote...

Wouldn´t be necessarily bad. Especially for weapon skills and some specs there are a lot of useless wastes of skillpoints for skills that only improve the one you already have.

-That’s the whole point of having them. As your character gains experience in the game so should their skills, talents/spells. You don’t start a RPG of any kind with a character that’s already a master at everything. There would be no point to play the rest of the game, just head right to the “big bad” and beat the snot out of it. Game over in 45 minutes.


Tirigon wrote...

I would LOVE that. I want to have the party I like, without being forced to always have a special guy because noone else can open the damned door, Imo they should remove locks entirely - it simply doesn´t make sense. I mean, a mage can blow up an entire horde of enemies with a single spell, but can´t blow up a door? Ridiculous. And why can´t my twohander strike a door open if he can knock multiple strong enemies down with a single sweep? Ridiculous, too.

-Why not just remove the entire party now? You don’t need them by admission for whatever talents that they would bring to the game.

I will agree that there should be an alternate way to open locked doors and chests. Breaking a door down should require a certain strength level to do and you of course wouldn’t get any experience for doing it. Busting open a chest would damage some of the items in it and again wont give you any experience. I cant remember what game it is but they do that with the chests.


Tirigon wrote...

Admittedly, this would suck, but it was great in ME. It won´t happen in DA2, though, so stop b!tching.

-It wasn’t great in ME2. If you went into cover in the wrong spot you ended up in direct fire from who your hiding from. Why couldn’t happen for DAO2? (playing Devil’s Advocate here) Going by your own replies here you would want to make drastic changes to the game yourself.


Tirigon wrote...

1) classes in ME2 are more different from each other than in ME1 due to unique skills like Vanguard´s charge, or infiltrator´s cloak.
2) It would be best to remove classes entirely. They are a useless limitation of the plyers freedom. You should simply have ALL available talents. You would then build your own class as you can have only a little part of them.
But why, for example, should I not be able to play a dualwielder / mage hybrid? And why should my Twohander be unable to sneak and backstab if need be?
Let the player decide how he plays, not the class.

-One power doesn’t make a class more different if after you reach a point in the game and your suddenly gifted with a choice of 3 weapons to train in. After you get your choice of the sniper rifle, assault rifle or the shotgun your no longer playing your same class but a solder hybrid or a ME1 Shepard with a bonus talent.

-Removing the classes in DA2 would be the stupidest thing they could do. What your suggesting is for them to follow Bethesda with Oblivion (which isn’t a bad thing for what they do in their games) and have a mish mash class able to do everything or at least have access to everything. Expanding the class choices would be a better idea. Lets see a improved Arcane Warrior like class for a new mage subclass for example.

However, in no way is it even feasibly possible for someone using a 2 handed weapon to sneak up on anyone to pull off a backstab. They are typically to heavy, to large and to slow. Have you actually seen a 2 handed sword? They are not used to stab or poke people.


Tirigon wrote...
Sorry but that´s bullsh!t. BioWare might have done some things one can rightfully consider sub-optimal (to put it lightly) but they surely know better than to do such a crap. All these changes were very good for Mass Effect, but they don´t work for DAO.

Why?

Because Mass Effect is basically a Shooter-RPG,…

-Do they? I’m sure a hell of a lot of Mass Effect 1 players went “WTF!” after seeing all the sudden drastic changes made in ME2 when they played the game. Never say never.

Oh, and Dragon Age is basically a Hack N’ Slash-RPG. Doesn’t change anything but the genre.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 29 mai 2010 - 05:52 .


#239
Gaxhung

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This game won how many RPG Of The Year Awards in 2009 again? They probably want to keep to the overall structure since it is so well received.



Then again the PC version is always mentioned as the best version to play, maybe they will simplify some areas, so the console versions are not the "lesser" version. But Awakenings didn't simplify anything, instead there's even more spells and items to loot. I guess we can only wait with bated breath, as it were :/



I hope in DA2, there will be less game crashes, less load times, better action bar (my screen is 5:4 1280px wide only, so not enough slots for all the spells in Awakenings)

#240
JSS

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Indoctrination wrote...

This is my greatest fear in regard to Dragon Age 2. I'm afraid they'll go the Mass Effect 2 route and just dumb down the RPG aspects. If DA2 ends up being a hack 'n' slash action game with a dialogue system tacked on to it, I'm not buying it.


havent played MA2 yet but tbh i think this would be way better for it. The game doesent need a huge amount of customisation. I think it would be way funer and unique if it was just like a normal FPS with a lil bit of customisation and then tons of story and character interaction.

#241
Lord Gremlin

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Now, Darth Drago's suggestions are far from possible future I think. If you have forgotten, Dragon Age already have 4 difficulty settings. And for good reason. Loot and customization are huge parts of fun, unlike in Mass Effect 1. In Mass Effect loot was no fun. Absolutely. It was a shooter with inconvenient elements, so said elements were removed.

Dragon Age is good as it is, and it's very friendly to the player. All I want is Bioware focusing more on consoles, since now console versions have several interface flaws that were caused by... laziness. For example unselectable pets. Someone didn't want to bother with allowing to select em with shoulder button. Or being unable to rotate camera while targeting area spells. Why?

Console versions need more polish.

#242
Tirigon

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Darth Drago wrote...


Tirigon wrote...

Considering I´m not using a single bormal armor through the entire game but always use armor from mods or the vanilla highend sets, I wouldn´t mind.

-So the rest of the non-modded gaming world should suffer?

Without mods you have to use common items a bit longer, but in the end you have high-end gear too.


-That’s the whole point of having them. As your character gains experience in the game so should their skills, talents/spells. You don’t start a RPG of any kind with a character that’s already a master at everything. There would be no point to play the rest of the game, just head right to the “big bad” and beat the snot out of it. Game over in 45 minutes.

I disagree. When I playe Oblivion I cheated my Character to have every skill on 100 and thus being Level 42 from the start. And I must say, I had more fun than when I had to level all the time.
I don´t play RPGs for levelgrinding but for the story and the combat, with the combat  getting better on higher levels.
If you want levelgrinding you should play WoW or something like that.


-Why not just remove the entire party now? You don’t need them by admission for whatever talents that they would bring to the game.

I will agree that there should be an alternate way to open locked doors and chests. Breaking a door down should require a certain strength level to do and you of course wouldn’t get any experience for doing it. Busting open a chest would damage some of the items in it and again wont give you any experience. I cant remember what game it is but they do that with the chests.

You shouldn´t remove the party. You need the party because of not having enough skills / mana / health to do everything on your own, and of course for the roleplaying. But what´s the point in having to bring your "key"? I mean, I didn´t mind in DAO because I always bring Leliana or Zevran anyways as they are my favourite characters. But others might not like them and why should they be forced to have them or play a rogue only to be able to open locks?
Oh and the opening locks with force is a mod for DAO. Unfortunately I can´t use it because it conflicts with more important mods, though.


-It wasn’t great in ME2. If you went into cover in the wrong spot you ended up in direct fire from who your hiding from. Why couldn’t happen for DAO2? (playing Devil’s Advocate here) Going by your own replies here you would want to make drastic changes to the game yourself.

In real life, if you take up cover in the wrong place you could be shot, too. I admit, in rare cases the cover system in ME2 failed, but I still find it preferrable to the ME1 way.
And no, I don´t want drastic changes, only simple changes that make the game more fun.


-One power doesn’t make a class more different if after you reach a point in the game and your suddenly gifted with a choice of 3 weapons to train in. After you get your choice of the sniper rifle, assault rifle or the shotgun your no longer playing your same class but a solder hybrid or a ME1 Shepard with a bonus talent.

Depends on how you play. I think the one class-specific talent matters HUGELY. I even modded ME2 so all classes would have all weapons, and a Vanguard plays STILL vastly different than other classes.
Also, as you mentioned yourself, you could have a new weapon in ME1 too because of bonus talents. I always played Assault rifle Adept, for example.

-Removing the classes in DA2 would be the stupidest thing they could do. What your suggesting is for them to follow Bethesda with Oblivion (which isn’t a bad thing for what they do in their games) and have a mish mash class able to do everything or at least have access to everything. Expanding the class choices would be a better idea. Lets see a improved Arcane Warrior like class for a new mage subclass for example.

Expanding the classes is nice, true. But why so much effort? Simply removing class restriction allows much more customisation with less work.
And please explain why it would be bad in DAO when you admit yourself that it was good in Oblivion?
On a last note, it would matter MUCH less than you might think. I tried a mod once that does exactly this in DAO and while it was fun, it didn´t make your character stronger as you have to split points - for example, an AW twohander would have to waste many points on str and does cast weaker and have less autohit-damage than a pure AW.

However, in no way is it even feasibly possible for someone using a 2 handed weapon to sneak up on anyone to pull off a backstab. They are typically to heavy, to large and to slow. Have you actually seen a 2 handed sword? They are not used to stab or poke people.

True, but the sneaking in DAO is more of an invisibility spell anyways. I mean, you can walk to enemies, look in their face, throw a bomb from about 2 meters distance right in their line of sight and still stay invisible.......
With that, realism considerations are a bit pointless imo.


-Do they? I’m sure a hell of a lot of Mass Effect 1 players went “WTF!” after seeing all the sudden drastic changes made in ME2 when they played the game. Never say never.

Those saying WTF were those who wanted Mass Effect to be less shooter and more classical RPG. A valid position, but one you could have expected to be disappointed. ME was always marketed as a RPG-Shooter hybrid and not a pure RPG.

Oh, and Dragon Age is basically a Hack N’ Slash-RPG. Doesn’t change anything but the genre.


I disagree. DAO is not hack´n´slash. You can´t even hack and slash yourself!!!!
Hack´n´slash would be something like Oblivion or games like Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

A game that only allows spells and autohits and calculates the chance to hit based on stats instead of based on the players aiming skill is not hack´n´slash.

#243
CybAnt1

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Oh, and Dragon Age is basically a Hack N’ Slash-RPG. Doesn’t change anything but the genre.


It seems to me a (FPS/third person) "shooter" is a game where the player is aiming the weapon, and thus whether you hit or miss depends on whether you can get the reticule/gunsight on the target, usually in real time without pause. 

KOTOR was also a quasi "shooter' insofar as although there were a handful of melee weapons besides the Jedi lightsaber (vibroswords, stun batons), almost everybody was using blasters and blaster rifles. But the difference there was whether you hit was dependent on stats & skills of your char. You paused, selected the target, selected the type of ranged attack via special abilities, and then let the game do the rest for every shot. (Which is how ranged combat works in DA, too.) 

As I understand it, though, ME1 was already somewhat like the first type of game, and ME2 has now become moreso. Haven't played either, as I've said, can only go by what I've read.

I don't mind RPG games with shooting -- that's practically every "modern"/"sci-fi" rpg -- but the key I think is how hits are determined. What's being tested? Player's skill at hand-eye coordination, or the character's skills & stats?

EDIT: just noticed the exact same point was made just above. BTW, the fact that even ME1 was *already* being described as a shooter-hybrid, before it was made moreso in ME2, was another reason I didn't rush to find it, besides it first being console only. 

Would also add: if you hate levelling and levelling mechanics, you probably shouldn't play RPGs, which are constructed around them. Obviously, there are always options to circumvent the system (cheat console/mods) ... personally, I tweak a bit here and there, but don't jump to level 25/40 as it takes all the fun out of progression. And personally, I also prefer a lot of things to choose from while levelling up, as it makes a character's "journey" toward level 25 (or whateva) unique.... I just don't like the DA system sometimes forcing you to take 3 crap skills/spells to take a 4th one at the end. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 29 mai 2010 - 01:39 .


#244
Hollingdale

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I think it's kind of ridiculous to bash the streamlining aspect of Mass Effect 2 without even admitting how much better it works as a shooter. But that's OT anyway.

I was gonna write something along the lines of what CybAnt1 wrote but he did it so well that I don't think there's any need for me to elaborate on it : (

Too Tirigon: Rather than remove the need for rogues they should add an additional party slot, four just doesn't cut it when one has to be a rogue.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 29 mai 2010 - 03:52 .


#245
Tirigon

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Hollingdale wrote...

Too Tirigon: Rather than remove the need for rogues they should add an additional party slot, four just doesn't cut it when one has to be a rogue.


More slots are alwas better because it´s so hard to leave half of your companions behind all the time....

I would still like it if there was no need for rogues. It´s not that I don´t like rogues - in fact, my rogue playthrough was awesome and one of the easiest - but I don´t like things being forced on the player. You should be able to make a no rogue playthrough without missing half of the loot and every trap hitting.

#246
Sidney

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CybAnt1 wrote...

Would also add: if you hate levelling and levelling mechanics, you probably shouldn't play RPGs, which are constructed around them. Obviously, there are always options to circumvent the system (cheat console/mods) ... personally, I tweak a bit here and there, but don't jump to level 25/40 as it takes all the fun out of progression. And personally, I also prefer a lot of things to choose from while levelling up, as it makes a character's "journey" toward level 25 (or whateva) unique.... I just don't like the DA system sometimes forcing you to take 3 crap skills/spells to take a 4th one at the end. 


 Most games have added some sort of avatar progression in the game. Assasins Creed unlocks higher health/weapons/attacks as you "advance". They don't have a classic XP system but the effect is the same. Bioshock handles leveling via adam for example. People who want to hug tighter to leveling and whisper its name while rocking in the corner are missing the fact that leveling isn't at the core of the RPG experience and it increasingly isn't unique to an RPG.  An RPG that is constructued around leveling isn't really doing it's job, WoW is built around leveling and there's nothing less RPG than WoW.

For the RPG's to continue to stand out people have to let go of inventory and leveling as their magic bullets and focus on the "role" part of role playing and make the experience in RPG's about your ability to affect the game world in a unique way something that, despite leveling, you can't do in AC2 or Bioshock. That effect isn't about your ability to play Barbie dress up with your paper doll either, it is about meaningful choices in the game world. They can streamline the hades out of DAO2 as long as that core principle of choice and affect doesn't go away.

#247
Demx

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Tirigon wrote...

More slots are alwas better because it´s so hard to leave half of your companions behind all the time....


This just reminds me of the scene with Zevran running in at the last minute, that is if you don't have him in your group in Denerim.

#248
Tirigon

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Sidney wrote...

That effect isn't about your ability to play Barbie dress up with your paper doll either, it is about meaningful choices in the game world. They can streamline the hades out of DAO2 as long as that core principle of choice and affect doesn't go away.



THIS.

#249
Demx

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There really wasn't that much cause and effect for your choices, if you exclude the slide-show at the end and who will be in your final battle. The Circle of Magi and it's connection to Connor only really shows the cause of your actions. The rest is just random encounters or your party members going AWOL because they were in your group at the time.

Modifié par Siradix, 29 mai 2010 - 08:06 .


#250
Astranagant

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I think DA2 should have full Wiimote, nunchuck and Wii-fit board support and feature an anthropomorphic animal sidekick with plenty of baditude. If DA2 can't be played and enjoyed by doddering old coots and four year olds, it shouldn't be made and Bioware should be disbanded. Or sold to Activision so Robert Kotick can infuse some real creativity.