559 réponses à ce sujet

[aaniadyen]

Sidney wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

This. Exactly. You don't need level scaling to maintain challenge. You simply need to design it so the starting areas are coincidentally set in areas that have you engaging in lower-level type conbat and have it go from there. It doesn't even need to be linear as long as you have enough areas to allow players a choice within level ranges.

Yeah but this is the rub. The magicaly cry of "non-linear" goes up and any game, see Fallout 1 or 2, where some places are too hard become de facto linear. You can't have enough areas to scale appropriately so that it isn't a "path" through the game - even FO had a fairly basic and I suspect common "path" through the game despite the breadth of the game world.

It is really a matter of what matters to players. You get freedom but you have to have level scaling or you get a pre-determined world with encounters that more closely match your challenge levels.

The one thing that FO1-2 really did right was to not scale the random encounters. Sometimes you get Geckos and sometimes you get the Brotherhood of Steel. If you are super powerful you get that near godlike feel ripping through low-end critters, which is nice sometimes, but you can also be challenges. Low levels type need to learnt to run sometimes.

Hmm...that's true. it can be a wide path, but it is still a path. I never played Fall out 1 or 2, so not really sure what they're like.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 31 mai 2010 - 03:39 .

[CybAnt1]

As somebody pointed out on the old "level scaling sucks" thread, you can, theoretically, have a nonlinear world with open travel, and non level scaled enemies but simply challenged scaled areas, and the problem is, the game ends up being linear anyway.



As they said, if you have the lvl 3 area vale of angry rabbits, the lvl 5 area den of mangy wolves, the lvl 7 area cave of nasty spiders, and lvl 9 area wood of killer trees, you can leave those areas "open" to journey at any time, but unless people are masochists, they will always go vale -> den -> cave -> wood. Open, nonlinear REQUIRES challenge scaling, or it becomes linear, anyway.

[aaniadyen]

CybAnt1 wrote...

As somebody pointed out on the old "level scaling sucks" thread, you can, theoretically, have a nonlinear world with open travel, and non level scaled enemies but simply challenged scaled areas, and the problem is, the game ends up being linear anyway.

As they said, if you have the lvl 3 area vale of angry rabbits, the lvl 5 area den of mangy wolves, the lvl 7 area cave of nasty spiders, and lvl 9 area wood of killer trees, you can leave those areas "open" to journey at any time, but unless people are masochists, they will always go vale -> den -> cave -> wood. Open, nonlinear REQUIRES challenge scaling, or it becomes linear, anyway.

Right, of course. That's not what I meant, not really, anyway. I more meant having enough areas where you can pick and chose, for example, having 8 zones from 1-10, one being 1-8, another being 1-3, another being 4-9, etc. This allows you to let the player choose where they go within those areas and within those level ranges while still retaining that sense of realism in the power of enemies. Unfortunately, this leads to wasted resourcfes, as people will skip content, but luckily, it makes it better for repeated playthroughs., This is what I meant.

[Oldenglishcdr]

yummysoap wrote...

As an expansion Awakening was just about all we could have hoped for. People seemed to be expecting a fully-funded epic new release, and it's not Bioware's fault that it didn't meet their ridiculously high expectations.

I think Bioware have set the standards reasonably high despite any game related problems and people are naturally going to compare any expansion/addon/future product by Bioware with DOA. If Awakening seems inferior to DOA because it's an Expansion this is fine, but if it is inferior because of overall presentation/more bugs etc, then this is not acceptable and responsibilty lies with Bioware for sure.
Bioware have set the Standard with DOA and now people expect more or better, one can't blame the fans for that.

[aaniadyen]

Oldenglishcdr wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

As an expansion Awakening was just about all we could have hoped for. People seemed to be expecting a fully-funded epic new release, and it's not Bioware's fault that it didn't meet their ridiculously high expectations.

I think Bioware have set the standards reasonably high despite any game related problems and people are naturally going to compare any expansion/addon/future product by Bioware with DOA. If Awakening seems inferior to DOA because it's an Expansion this is fine, but if it is inferior because of overall presentation/more bugs etc, then this is not acceptable and responsibilty lies with Bioware for sure.
Bioware have set the Standard with DOA and now people expect more or better, one can't blame the fans for that.

Woah...did that really just happen? Someone explaining a point of view calmly and rationally on an RPG forum? Hell, I gotta stop hanging out with Oghren.

[Lord Gremlin]

CybAnt1 wrote...

As somebody pointed out on the old "level scaling sucks" thread, you can, theoretically, have a nonlinear world with open travel, and non level scaled enemies but simply challenged scaled areas, and the problem is, the game ends up being linear anyway.

As they said, if you have the lvl 3 area vale of angry rabbits, the lvl 5 area den of mangy wolves, the lvl 7 area cave of nasty spiders, and lvl 9 area wood of killer trees, you can leave those areas "open" to journey at any time, but unless people are masochists, they will always go vale -> den -> cave -> wood. Open, nonlinear REQUIRES challenge scaling, or it becomes linear, anyway.

Agreed. Although I must add that scaling should stop at certain point. For example, once you hit level 20 world stop changing and it's only you who grow more powerful from this moment.
Because if you won't stop scaling game will quickly become either frustrating or boring.

[Tirigon]

aaniadyen wrote...


I typed it correctly. Like I said. Try importing a warden from Awakenings into Origins and see how easy everything is. I can garuntee you it would be easier than anything in Awakenings. If you had the stats you get in Awakening in Origins, Origins would be very easy. My DW rogue, in the right situation, could do a good 350 dps by the end of awakenings. Compare that to the 200 most max out at the end of Origins. Who is stronger? The boss that can last 12 seconds being hit with 350 dps, or the boss who can last 18 being hit with 200 dps?

My Dualwielder rogue in Awakenings had better DPS than my char in Awakenings....

Also, no boss lasts 12 seconds in Awakening. More like 5, at most.

[Tirigon]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

As somebody pointed out on the old "level scaling sucks" thread, you can, theoretically, have a nonlinear world with open travel, and non level scaled enemies but simply challenged scaled areas, and the problem is, the game ends up being linear anyway.

As they said, if you have the lvl 3 area vale of angry rabbits, the lvl 5 area den of mangy wolves, the lvl 7 area cave of nasty spiders, and lvl 9 area wood of killer trees, you can leave those areas "open" to journey at any time, but unless people are masochists, they will always go vale -> den -> cave -> wood. Open, nonlinear REQUIRES challenge scaling, or it becomes linear, anyway.

Agreed. Although I must add that scaling should stop at certain point. For example, once you hit level 20 world stop changing and it's only you who grow more powerful from this moment.
Because if you won't stop scaling game will quickly become either frustrating or boring.

Or, just get rid of leveling completely. Would be much better anyways.

[xCirdanx]

Casualized hu? So you are a hardcore gamer? Sorry, i just hate these terms, no offense.

Anyway, i don´t think this will/can happen, because DA is already very easy to play and understand. The combat system is also more the hack&slash type, with hardly any strategical depth.

Now, that may sound very critical, but i do enjoy the game a lot and played thru it several times, but it is nowhere difficult or "hardcore" or what people might call it. So you would have a hard time "casualize", and most people understand this is as "making it easier", something, that is already easy.

[Leon Evelake]

yummysoap wrote...

Hollingdale, while I do agree that most people on this forum treat DA:O as though it's some holy scripture never to be altered in any way, your complete dismissal of their opinions seem just as shortsighted.

As an expansion Awakening was just about all we could have hoped for. People seemed to be expecting a fully-funded epic new release, and it's not Bioware's fault that it didn't meet their ridiculously high expectations.

He is always like that, but I agree with you Awakening was about as good as it could be it was an expansion a sort of mini sequel, single episode in your characters life after origins.  It had problems I mean it couldn't have been to hard to put a short conversation where you talk about what you were doing before awakening starts or have Oghren ask where so and so or did you find so and so.  But the game had some cool new stuff, I really enjoyed officiating over disputes and thought it was short liked the posturing among nobles.  I completely loath the thought of the conversation being used in dragon age 2, but for an expansion it survivable, as far as the price I would liked to have it been 30 $ but the people who keep complaining about it should shut the heck up there are plenty of full priced games that are under 10 hours and with less replay value.  As far as difficulty I personally enjoyed feeling a bit over powered (I started at level 21) considering everything that happened in the previous game it made sense to slaughter the lesser threats you faced in awakening.  Heck I wouldn't mind some more Awakening style expansions.


 

[Arttis]

I would say for DA O 2 keep it like origins but set in another country and not as a grey warden...tired of the whole special powerful organization roaming everywhere saving everyone from the ultimate evil....in ME also its annoying...but i doubt you will change it...

[aaniadyen]

Tirigon wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...


I typed it correctly. Like I said. Try importing a warden from Awakenings into Origins and see how easy everything is. I can garuntee you it would be easier than anything in Awakenings. If you had the stats you get in Awakening in Origins, Origins would be very easy. My DW rogue, in the right situation, could do a good 350 dps by the end of awakenings. Compare that to the 200 most max out at the end of Origins. Who is stronger? The boss that can last 12 seconds being hit with 350 dps, or the boss who can last 18 being hit with 200 dps?

My Dualwielder rogue in Awakenings had better DPS than my char in Awakenings....

Also, no boss lasts 12 seconds in Awakening. More like 5, at most.

If you don't believe me there's a script you can run in-game that will output like 40+ stats of all the monsters in an area to a notepad file. I know you won't bother, but trust me, the mobs in Awakening are stronger. There's a big difference.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 01 juin 2010 - 03:51 .

[Discus]

I think it's great we put up a stand here in the forums for what we
believe would make DA a better game in the future but fact remains that I
think anyone here really enjoyed the game, why would we else be
fighting for it and spending time on an internet forum trying to
convince developers what to do with DA2. And I also think that Bioware
keeps track of what happens in the forums.

I am do not know that much about the politics of game companies like EA but I'll offer my opinion anyway. Of course, considering economy today and the way the monatery system is showing its true face we can only expect companies to be profit oriented. That is the whole point of the monetary system, it was never about progression or development, or as followers of the system positively says "growth". As if economical "growth" is what human beings always wanted.  The monetary system is about profit, which means that visionaries will have a hard time. They will have to convince the guys in the suits why they should invest, which ultimately has to do with profit. So of course we are going to see DLCs like Darkspawn chronicles, of course we are going to see compromises but I still believe in Bioware and this game.

I think the developers and writers of this game put their heart into it, everyone can't be pleased but the fact that we are fighting for this game means that a lot of us really like the game. So all I can say is that I hope that Bioware will stick it's neck out, will dare to be innovative, creative and make the unexpected choices. What always surpises me is how profit oriented companies like EA cannot see the link between integrity/daring to challenge the gamer with new ideas leads to success. Every great piece of art, every groundbreaking invention, every truly great development in human life and of course every game that went down in history as something unlike any other, something completely new, exciting and absorbing, was never made by people playing it safe or trying to fit into the model of what is generally excepted by society. It was made by people with vision and guts.

Now I am not saying Bioware does not have the guts but I have yet to be impressed by a studio that dares to take the risk no matter what and manages to convince the investors and produce a game without any compromise.

Now, if Bioware was such a studio, they would not try to fit into anyones pocket. They would try to fit into their OWN idea of what they think a great game is. Maybe that is Dragon Age? Who knows except for the developers.

All I can say is that I really enjoyed Dragon Age. There were some things that I expected after being bombarded with the PR and trailers that did not meet my expectations. But generally I really had fun and was immersed in the game.

So I hope that whatever Bioware does with Dragon Age 2 they do it from their hearts, not their brains; Brains that tell them to please investors, gamers or anyone else. I hope that they make the game with a vision, a vision of an ideal world where things might go wrong and fail but where there atleast is the space to be different and to see your dreams come alive -- where there is no compromise except for the joy and frustration of working in a creative team full of individuals and passionate minds.

[Murphys_Law]

Tonkarz wrote...

In business it's not good enough to say "it did well, given the genre" because the response is "well, don't make games in that genre". Like, imagine if you were selling hats, and you said to your shareholders "well, our new line of hats are selling very well considering they are glitter encrusted stove pipe hats".

That is not necessarily true.  There are hundreds of niche companies just in the U.S.  They do one or a few things and they do it well.  Spreading out to other markets creates a problem of focus.  You cannot make everyone happy and trying to can led to a lower quality product and more importantly less sales.  Not to mention, that the whole idea of a "casual" market is nothing more then some made up market that people try to pass of as the majority.  What does it even mean?  Make the game easier?  Fast paced action?  Then why did Dragon Age do so well if this game supposedly isn't "casual friendly" enough.  Really it is just the hot new fade of gaming industry now a days.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

DA is already very casualized.

[TheMadCat]

Murphys_Law wrote...
  Not to mention, that the whole idea of a "casual" market is nothing more then some made up market that people try to pass of as the majority.  What does it even mean?  Make the game easier?  Fast paced action?  Then why did Dragon Age do so well if this game supposedly isn't "casual friendly" enough.  Really it is just the hot new fade of gaming industry now a days.

No, there is indeed a "casual" market in the industry and it is represented by the majority. A casual game is a game that one can pick up and play, a game that doesn't require any skill, knowledge, experience, practice, ect. A game a player can pick up, install, fully play and understand, and succeed without much difficulty. For example lets look at the RTS genre and compare C&C 4 and Theater of War 2. C&C 4 is a game which is laid out very simply, your task is clearly laid out before you, everything is self explanitory and doesn't much time invested in understanding the game in order to be successful. On the contrary we have Theater of War 2, a very intricate game with a lot of aspects requiring experience or knowledge in regards to the historical units, there is much more then what one can precieve at face value, and is much deeper on the tactical level.

Now, even though these two are labeled under the exact same genre, Real Time Strategy, you're certainly not going to reccomend Theater of War 2 to a passive gamer who enjoyed C&C 4 and found it to be perfect. Why is that? Well, one is a "casual" game which is typically suited for people who have gaming as a passive hobby and the other is for strategy geeks who have no problem devoting time to understanding a game in order to find it's enjoyment.

[Lord Gremlin]

Tirigon wrote...

Or, just get rid of leveling completely. Would be much better anyways.

It's been explained that in this case it will be very hard to create an open world game. Especially in the beginning. So it's a necessary evil. But of course it should be minimized.
Also: some bosses in Awakening can be killed in 10 seconds, but some may take longer to defeat - that depends on your party and style of playing. Overall Awakening is much harder than Origins - if you compare them directly, that is. It's doesn't feel much harder though since you have a much more powerful character.

[Hollingdale]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Or, just get rid of leveling completely. Would be much better anyways.

It's been explained that in this case it will be very hard to create an open world game. Especially in the beginning. So it's a necessary evil. But of course it should be minimized.
Also: some bosses in Awakening can be killed in 10 seconds, but some may take longer to defeat - that depends on your party and style of playing. Overall Awakening is much harder than Origins - if you compare them directly, that is. It's doesn't feel much harder though since you have a much more powerful character.

So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

[Tirigon]

Hollingdale wrote...


So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

True. I don´t even dare to imagine how easy the game will be if I import a good character.......

[aaniadyen]

Hollingdale wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Or, just get rid of leveling completely. Would be much better anyways.

It's been explained that in this case it will be very hard to create an open world game. Especially in the beginning. So it's a necessary evil. But of course it should be minimized.
Also: some bosses in Awakening can be killed in 10 seconds, but some may take longer to defeat - that depends on your party and style of playing. Overall Awakening is much harder than Origins - if you compare them directly, that is. It's doesn't feel much harder though since you have a much more powerful character.

So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

Apparently you are missing the point completely.

[Hollingdale]

aaniadyen wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Or, just get rid of leveling completely. Would be much better anyways.

It's been explained that in this case it will be very hard to create an open world game. Especially in the beginning. So it's a necessary evil. But of course it should be minimized.
Also: some bosses in Awakening can be killed in 10 seconds, but some may take longer to defeat - that depends on your party and style of playing. Overall Awakening is much harder than Origins - if you compare them directly, that is. It's doesn't feel much harder though since you have a much more powerful character.

So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

Apparently you are missing the point completely.

No, I think you do. I merely pointed out the absurdity of measuring difficulty by enemies alone aswell as the factual error of saying that Awakenings is harder than Origins.

My personal opinion as regards the whole level scaling problem is that linearity, either through enemies not level scaling at all thereby effectively creating a sort of linearity or at least a limitation as regards which areas can be visited or through actual linearity (in which case you can actually still have level scaling) would solve the problem. Of course this probably wont please the advocators of free roaming worlds but I think that creating a free roaming world for a story driven game is not worth it as the latter will inevetably suffer as a free world can not be presented nearly as good as a limited one. This is because Bioware do not have endless resources and an open world requires more resources than a limited one meaning story gets less. Not to mention the fact that an open world also needs a lot more npc's which means the average npc will have a lot less to say.

Bioware could work on opening up their enviroments though, especially the outdoor ones. There is no need for them to be like the corridors they are now.

[SDNcN]

Hollingdale wrote...

Of course this probably wont please the advocators of free roaming worlds but I think that creating a free roaming world for a story driven game is not worth it as the latter will inevetably suffer as a free world can not be presented nearly as good as a limited one. This is because Bioware do not have endless resources and an open world requires more resources than a limited one meaning story gets less. Not to mention the fact that an open world also needs a lot more npc's which means the average npc will have a lot less to say.

Bioware could work on opening up their enviroments though, especially the outdoor ones. There is no need for them to be like the corridors they are now.

http://g4tv.com/thef...Not-Enough.html

Pretty much sums up why some games should be open world and why  games with strong narratives would suffer because of it.

[Hollingdale]

Yeah I know, I'm familiar with the subject the arguments in the video though are effective not only against an open world but also against the 4 area pick-whatever-you-want-in-whatever-order-you-want system that Kotor and Dragon Age use as the narrative suffers a lot from it (look at the Prince of Persia part, it's directly applicable to Dragon Age). Of course when one says this it becomes obvious that a lot of fans do in fact want a lot of freedom as they strongly oppose changing to a linear mainstory despite all the downsides of it



Still having an open world would just make it worse.

[Tirigon]

The problem about linearity in an RPG is that the roleplaying suffers if you can´t even decide where to go.

[Hollingdale]

The problem is that youre roleplaying a retard if you don't go where the story dictates though.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 02 juin 2010 - 07:30 .