559 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

No.

[AlanC9]

So linear games are unfair to retard characters? Could be.

[k9medusa]

Tirigon wrote...

The problem about linearity in an RPG is that the roleplaying suffers if you can´t even decide where to go.

Yes it is trure MOST of the time, but I know of some NWN 1 player made stories  that are very very linear and I still recall them after 6 years!  No, they are not related to the OC in any way either....

[AlanC9]

Tirigon, how about an actual, you know, argument?

[Zanderat]

Hollingdale wrote...

The problem is that youre roleplaying a retard if you don't go where the story doesn't dictates though.

LOL!!!!  Post of the day! 

[Sidney]

Oddly enough the most common format for a story is in a linear fashion be it books or movies. There's nothing wrong with a linear narrative.



I'm less concerned with having the choice of going to A or B but more concerned with the choices and interactions I have when I get to A and B.

[yummysoap]

Linearity could fix a whole lotta things. I'd advocate a small amount of it for the reasons above only because it seems like the entire world stands still for you in its current form. Seriously, in Lothering the templar told me that the Circle templars are up in arms against abominations and that they're calling for the Right of Annulment.



Right. Okay. Well, I guess I'll go and do Orzammar, Redcliffe, the Brecillian Forest, Denerim, Flemeth's hut, get me some Ashes, grab Shale, and then pop by once this whole thing is resolved. I mean it should be by now, right? I was told about it in Lothering, right?



Well apparently all they were doing the whole time was sitting on their asses waiting for a knight in shining armour to do the their job.

[Lord Gremlin]

Tirigon wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...


So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

True. I don´t even dare to imagine how easy the game will be if I import a good character.......

Even on Nightmare? Don't forget about 4 difficulty settings.  Well, probably on PC it is easy - since on PC you can pause the game and simultaneously order every party member where to go. On console it can be insanely hard on Nighmare since you have to manually move your characters (for example to get the mage away from melee boss), and while you walk you lose time that could be used to issue commands. This makes tactics you select for AI absolutely crucial.

[Sidney]

yummysoap wrote...

Linearity could fix a whole lotta things. I'd advocate a small amount of it for the reasons above only because it seems like the entire world stands still for you in its current form. Seriously, in Lothering the templar told me that the Circle templars are up in arms against abominations and that they're calling for the Right of Annulment.

Right. Okay. Well, I guess I'll go and do Orzammar, Redcliffe, the Brecillian Forest, Denerim, Flemeth's hut, get me some Ashes, grab Shale, and then pop by once this whole thing is resolved. I mean it should be by now, right? I was told about it in Lothering, right?

Well apparently all they were doing the whole time was sitting on their asses waiting for a knight in shining armour to do the their job.

Time is the one element that non-linear games can't get right. You can wander all over the wasteland in FO3 rather than saving your dad. You can dune buggy across uncharted worlds while the galaxy is in peril in ME1. Heck even in BG2 once you get the X gp to go to Spellhold you can keep mucking about - but then again who really wants to save Imoen anyways. 

People griped about ME2's plot but the way it is structured it explains WHY you can be dinking about doing not save the galaxy things and it is really the only non-linear game I can think of that manages to pull that trick off. Basically, for people who haven't played it, they have "breaks" in the action while people research things or you wait for the next thing to happen to move your investigation forward. During those breaks it makes sense I can do the little side quests and other things off the main arc. It really works but is can be less compelling because you don't have to be doing something very single minute to advance the plot.

[AlanC9]

Sidney wrote...
Time is the one element that non-linear games can't get right. You can wander all over the wasteland in FO3 rather than saving your dad. You can dune buggy across uncharted worlds while the galaxy is in peril in ME1. Heck even in BG2 once you get the X gp to go to Spellhold you can keep mucking about - but then again who really wants to save Imoen anyways.  

Well, you could could put the player on a timer, like in FO1. The problem is that players who like nonlinearity in the first place would hate being on a timer.

Early BG2 doesn't really count since there's nothing time-critical about going to Spellhold -- from player POV Imoen's in jail, which kinda sucks but isn't critical, and from Irenicus' POV... you know. It doesn't make any sense at all to finish quests after you go to  Spellhold, of course, but that's because  Bio used the lame "deadly condition that never actually does anything" mechanic. If they had done something sensible like the Spirit Meter from Mask of the Betrayer it would be OK.

But your general point is spot-on. Most heroic stories make no sense if bent into a nonlinear structure.

[Hollingdale]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...


So difficulty is measured by the strenght of enemies alone and not in their relation to your own? Do you realise how stupid that is? Fyi Awakenings is a lot easier, even with an Orlesian warden you'll eventually just slaughter everything.

True. I don´t even dare to imagine how easy the game will be if I import a good character.......

Even on Nightmare? Don't forget about 4 difficulty settings.  Well, probably on PC it is easy - since on PC you can pause the game and simultaneously order every party member where to go. On console it can be insanely hard on Nighmare since you have to manually move your characters (for example to get the mage away from melee boss), and while you walk you lose time that could be used to issue commands. This makes tactics you select for AI absolutely crucial.

I play on bo and trust me, despite the difficulty with positioning Awakenings was still a breeze on nightmare.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 02 juin 2010 - 06:18 .

[Fraevar]

David Gaider wrote...

Did I say it was unreasonable? Not at all. The "X" could be anything, and I imply no objective value to its quality-- it's simply what we decided to put there. I'm just saying that if there is an "X" which you consider to be a deal-breaker (and for your average RPG fan there appears to be many) that's essentially what it comes down to. Beyond that, reasoned feedback is always welcome.

I can't speak for others but for me "casualization" translates to lack of depth, which I find especially prevalent in Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 has very little character development; a recruitment, a side-quest and then "loyalty" as a gameplay mechanic. Asides from potentially unlocking a romance plot and acting as a statistical value at the end of the game loyalty in Mass Effect 2 doesn't really evolve any of the characters.

Add to that a morality and dialogue system that provides the player with either a Paragon or Renegade IWIN button for practically every situation and you get a game and a protagonist that is well...shallow.

What I personally loved about Dragon Age: Origins was that you really needed to put effort into maintaining a relationship with your companions and the choices you felt were never really black and white. A Persuade option might be possible in a dialogue scene but often it was a means of getting more gold or making a deadly situation non-lethal, at best.

So yes, I fear "casualization" and "streamlining" because to me, both of those mean stripping the meat out of the game, if Mass Effect 2 is any indication of how BioWare considers these processes.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 02 juin 2010 - 08:59 .

[Zanderat]

In another thread I made that exact point. All we can use a predictor of future intentions is their past actions......

[Vicious]

An anti-ME2 thread. What a surprise.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tirigon, how about an actual, you know, argument?

I do not honor bullsh!t with arguments.

[Tirigon]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Even on Nightmare? Don't forget about 4 difficulty settings.  Well, probably on PC it is easy - since on PC you can pause the game and simultaneously order every party member where to go. On console it can be insanely hard on Nighmare since you have to manually move your characters (for example to get the mage away from melee boss), and while you walk you lose time that could be used to issue commands. This makes tactics you select for AI absolutely crucial.

Well, on the PC I only play on nightmare. Without pausing  I would have to play on easy however, I guess.
I spend about 3/4 of the fight in pause.


But then, difficulty shouldn´t be increased by stupid control.

Modifié par Tirigon, 03 juin 2010 - 01:34 .

[Emerald Melios]

What does "casualized" even mean? I was hear that argument thrown around and I have no idea what context you're using the term.

[Eudaemonium]

Emerald Melios wrote...

What does "casualized" even mean? I was hear that argument thrown around and I have no idea what context you're using the term.

I think it's generally used to mean the game-equivalent of a lobotomy.

That said, in response to various comments about ME2, I really liked ME2's use of time, *particularly* with regards to the outcomes of certain end-game events. I also though the characters were all fairly good, I preferred DAs in general, and I really didn't like that the moment you decided not to be in a romance with character X they stopped really talking to you at all. I also thought the main plot sections were poorly done, but I loved the characters. especially Mordin.

[tom2504]

I too would like to know what casulized means.

Modifié par tom2504, 04 juin 2010 - 09:49 .

[David Gaider]

Emerald Melios wrote...
What does "casualized" even mean? I was hear that argument thrown around and I have no idea what context you're using the term.

My impression of the term and others like it is that they refer to any attempt to get away from the more traditional/hardcore aspects of a genre to gain the interest of a broader audience-- and often carry with them an implication that said audience is less discerning and less worthy of attention.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 juin 2010 - 10:31 .

[TheMadCat]

I'm not sure if some of you people are playing dumb or what, I just don't understand how anyone can frequent any video game board and not have the faintest idea what casualized means. It's a game that is made with the casual gamer in mind. Easy access and simple, understandable game play. You're not going to typically recommended ArmA2 to someone who enjoys Modern Warfare 2 or EVE Online to someone who loves World of Warcraft.



It's a simpler way of differentiating games within the same genre instead of breaking them down into 25 sub genres. It's not some elitist term or some derogatory comment or an implication that anyone is less discerning or less worthy then anyone. Casualized means it's catered to the wants of a casual gamer; easy, quick, simple, and fun.

[Hollingdale]

In any case all this whining about ME2 being causalised is BS.

[Tirigon]

TheMadCat wrote...

It's a simpler way of differentiating games within the same genre instead of breaking them down into 25 sub genres. It's not some elitist term or some derogatory comment or an implication that anyone is less discerning or less worthy then anyone. Casualized means it's catered to the wants of a casual gamer; easy, quick, simple, and fun.

If that´s the case forou, more power to you.

But for most, "casualized" means "not what I wanted and you suck if you like it"

[soteria]

I do not honor bullsh!t with arguments.

What you mean is, "I can't intelligently defend my own position, but I reserve the right to dismiss any other points of view off-hand."

[Emerald Melios]

David Gaider wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...
What does "casualized" even mean? I was hear that argument thrown around and I have no idea what context you're using the term.

My impression of the term and others like it is that they refer to any attempt to get away from the more traditional/hardcore aspects of a genre to gain the interest of a broader audience-- and often carry with them an implication that said audience is less discerning and less worthy of attention.

In other words, eliminating annoying tedium?