559 réponses à ce sujet

[Arrtis]

i like fictional violence a ton more then real violence.

More hack and slash and do not let easily influenced people play them!

[maxernst]

True, I guess I do think most CRPG's are hack 'n slash and always have been. Certainly, the vast majority of them remind me a lot more of my early dungeon crawling D&D play in high school than my later RPG campaigns with mostly urban settings and more political intrigue. Of the old line CRPG's, they were all pretty much combat-oriented except maybe the Ultima games. There was a rash of games that were less so from ~1997 to 2002 but a lot of them were associated with Black Isle or Black Isle expats (Arcanum).

Anyway, my point was that the house style of Bioware is to have a primary PC recruit various companion characters who tag along, chat and sometimes romance there way through a story interspersed with a whole lot of combat. These games have appealed well enough to "casual" gamers to make their games huge sellers, so I don't imagine Bioware is going to change their formula.

Modifié par maxernst, 07 juin 2010 - 08:29 .

[Arttis]

im an addict to gaming those kinds of games appeal to me too!

[Sidney]

AlanC9 wrote...
OK, that's a reasonable definition. But then the vast majority of RPGs have always been hack & slash. I can think of a few more exceptions, like Starflight and Arcanum. We might be better off by just equating RPG with hack & slash, and having a special term for the games without near-continuous combat.

Yeah but then things like Diablo were real hack n' slash or even the things like Marvel Ultimate Alliance or the rebooted tragedy of Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance where the story is nothing more than "You start at X and kill everything to get to point Y".

Bioware's game, as much combat is in them, have a lot more story and depth than any of those 3 games that I consider true hack n' slash games.
To me RPG's break down into:

1. Hack n' Slash - like the things mentioned above where the story is incedental and your character doesn't affect the world he's just a leveling up machine.
2. Story driven games - This is most of what Bioware does and a bit maybe of the JRPG's.
3. World Driven games - These are the Bethesda sandboxes

[soteria]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried a minimum carnage run through DA:O? The fact that walking by enemies in stealth mode activates them and you can't leave an area while you're in combat makes me think that even playing a stealthy rogue with only Leli and Zev as companions, you're still going to wind up doing quite a bit of fighting.

A few of us have done minimum-exp runs, which amounts to about the same thing. I found it pretty frustrating trying to avoid combat in most cases--you can't leave a zone while in combat and in most cases you can't leave combat without killing someone. I ended the game at level 13, but I couldn't tell you off-hand how many enemies I killed. Hundreds, I think. For obvious reasons, the final stages of the game involved a LOT of killing.

[Leon Evelake]

MonkeyChief117 wrote...

I think 'Hack'n'Slash' refers more to endless, generic, mindless combat. Dragon age throws a lot of tactics and different techniques into the mix.

So although DA is very combat heavy, I (personally) would never refer to it as 'Hack'n'Slash.

True, the way I think of "hack and slash" and the way I think magazines and video game shows use term is when you have direct control of the real time combat and you just fight your way from point a to b.  Zelda, kingdom hearts and fable can be considered somewhat hack and slash, but they mix things up fairly well.  Ninja blade, devil may cry, and ninja gaiden are what I would consider true "hack and slash " under the modern common use.   Being that you cannot even control the basic attack that the dragon age characters use on their own I think calling it a "hack and slash' is inaccurate.

Interestingly enough wikipedia ways
"Hack and slash or hack and slay, abbreviated H&S or HnS, refers to a type of gameplay that emphasizes combat. "Hack and slash" was originally used to describe an aspect of pen-and-paper role-playing games (RPGs), carrying over from there to MUDs, MMORPGs, and video games in general. In console video games, the usage specifically implies a focus on combat with hand-to-hand weapons. In other contexts it is more general, and an archer or unarmed martial artist may participate as fully in a hack and slash game, or be as hack-and-slash oriented as an individual, as a melee fighter."

[Arttis]

soteria wrote...

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried a minimum carnage run through DA:O? The fact that walking by enemies in stealth mode activates them and you can't leave an area while you're in combat makes me think that even playing a stealthy rogue with only Leli and Zev as companions, you're still going to wind up doing quite a bit of fighting.

A few of us have done minimum-exp runs, which amounts to about the same thing. I found it pretty frustrating trying to avoid combat in most cases--you can't leave a zone while in combat and in most cases you can't leave combat without killing someone. I ended the game at level 13, but I couldn't tell you off-hand how many enemies I killed. Hundreds, I think. For obvious reasons, the final stages of the game involved a LOT of killing.

lowest level ive ended the game with was 18 but i wasnt trying for min exp
if i did i would probably be 17 or 16 and almost to 17,

[soteria]

Ninja blade, devil may cry, and ninja gaiden are what I would consider true "hack and slash " under the modern common use. Being that you cannot even control the basic attack that the dragon age characters use on their own I think calling it a "hack and slash' is inaccurate.

I understand what you're getting at, but I disagree. As wikipedia says, "hack and slash" isn't a genre so much as a description of the content. For example, a lot of the old NWN modules would have descriptions, including tags like, "Hack and Slash," or "RP." The games you mentioned would be "action." Among other differences, I would distinguish between Oblivion or Mass Effect and Dragon Age or BG as the difference between a first person action rpg and a third person tactical rpg. By your description, Obivion and Mass Effect would be "hack and slash," when in fact they're not any heavier in combat than Dragon Age.

[Zanderat]

Is this casual enough? 

www.bluesnews.com/a/1889/bioware-and-funimation-entertainment-sign-movie-deal-for-dragon-age

Modifié par Zanderat, 08 juin 2010 - 03:36 .

[CybAnt1]

A few of us have done minimum-exp runs, which amounts to about the same thing. I found it pretty frustrating trying to avoid combat in most cases

BTW, there are CRPGs that allow you to flee combat encounters. If you think you're up against an enemy that's too hard, you can simply leave and flee.

Sometimes you're penalized for doing so (i.e. fleeing means you lose XP, or lose gold, or take injuries while retreating, etc., etc.) Sometimes they will pursue and it becomes a contest to see if you can get away from them before they give up or kill you while fleeing (because they usually get bonus chances to hit at your fleeing backside). 

That can't happen in DA. There is no Sir Robin option. You can't flee. Now granted, BTW, it tends to be a more common feature of world/sandbox games than story driven games. Because fleeing usually involves going back to previous areas, and sometimes the story can't proceed until you get past the area with the enemy you fled from. 

BTW, DA does have a number of times where you can avoid combat. In almost any situation where you face an enemy and you get an opportunity for cutscene dialogue (parley) prior to battle, you can sometimes intimidate, persuade, or trick them out of fighting you. I consider that one of the differentiators between the "pure" hack n slash/dungeon crawl diablo-type-games and other types. The thing is, those encounters are rarer than they could be -- I think. Also, it would be cool if you were a rogue and once in a while if somebody nasty and mean had a key you needed to open a door, you could steal it from them or trick it out of them without having to kill them. That type of noncombat option should come up more often, as well. Rogues who are NOT assassins should use those methods more often. 

However, the real problem with these games is that other than a few other methods (like picking locks or opening traps or fulfilling quests), your major source of XP is combat and killing things. Therefore, even if you CAN avoid combat, you often won't, because battle gives you more XP and a better chance to level. They could move away from their combat-heaviness by having a wider variety of XP-generating actions. If you are a character committed to smooth talking (say a bard), why shouldn't you gain XP for talking some lout OUT of attacking you? 

[CybAnt1]

Zanderat wrote...

Is this casual enough? 

www.bluesnews.com/a/1889/bioware-and-funimation-entertainment-sign-movie-deal-for-dragon-age

Wow. So the Dragon Age movie everybody's been speculating about IS being made ... and it is indeed animation rather than live actors ... but it's Japanese anime.

Despite Bioware publically ragging on Japanese RPGs. 

That blows my mind on multiple levels. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 08 juin 2010 - 03:59 .

[Leon Evelake]

soteria wrote...

Ninja blade, devil may cry, and ninja gaiden are what I would consider true "hack and slash " under the modern common use. Being that you cannot even control the basic attack that the dragon age characters use on their own I think calling it a "hack and slash' is inaccurate.

I understand what you're getting at, but I disagree. As wikipedia says, "hack and slash" isn't a genre so much as a description of the content. For example, a lot of the old NWN modules would have descriptions, including tags like, "Hack and Slash," or "RP." The games you mentioned would be "action." Among other differences, I would distinguish between Oblivion or Mass Effect and Dragon Age or BG as the difference between a first person action rpg and a third person tactical rpg. By your description, Obivion and Mass Effect would be "hack and slash," when in fact they're not any heavier in combat than Dragon Age.

That's kind of why I said "modern common  usage" because how it originated is very different from how it is used. Still I don't really think that "hack and slash"  has as much to do with the amount of action as much as how it is implemented.

[Leon Evelake]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Zanderat wrote...

Is this casual enough? 

www.bluesnews.com/a/1889/bioware-and-funimation-entertainment-sign-movie-deal-for-dragon-age

Wow. So the Dragon Age movie everybody's been speculating about IS being made ... and it is indeed animation rather than live actors ... but it's Japanese anime.

Despite Bioware publically ragging on Japanese RPGs. 

That blows my mind on multiple levels. 

sorry for the double post but this could actually be quite awsome. 

[soteria]

That's kind of why I said "modern common usage" because how it originated is very different from how it is used. Still I don't really think that "hack and slash" has as much to do with the amount of action as much as how it is implemented.

When did I give the impression I was talking about the etymology of the word? I'm talking about normal usage. The genre you're describing is "action," and hack and slash is just a further description. It's not a genre any more than "dungeon crawler" is a genre. Your confusion comes from the fact that most action games *are* pretty much hack and slash. A counterexample is Thief, which gives the player control of real-time combat, but is definitely not hack and slash. The accurate part of your given definition is "you just fight your way from a to b," and I think it's telling that your definition is weak since you mention fable as being only "somewhat" hack and slash.

[AestheticLove]

Personally, I don't have much to add, except for the fact that I REALLY hope they move away from the "dumbed-down" crap they pass off as an "expansion pack". To me, Awakening was the worst, and completely ruined my DAO experience. I threw Awakening into the garbage after completing my first play-through, and vow to never play it again. After finishing it, I played-through DAO at least 3 more times so I could see how good the game was, and not give up completely. For one, the fake Alistair, HAD to go. That was my Warden's husband you're mocking, there! A ponytail? AN EARRING? I wanted to wtfslap him as soon as I met him. Not only that, but no romances? You couldn't even interact with your companions outside of their measely personal quests? Which, even still, was a pathetic excuse and I wouldn't even consider it a "quest". To me, I don't think DAO was a 'hack 'n' slash' kind of game, although it did have a lot of fighting, but that doesn't ruin the game for me. I think that the dialogue easily made up for all of the fight scenes we had to accomplish. However, I would LOVE to see more character interaction and getting more in-depth with our Warden's companion, as well as our own created character. Show us more into their background, their childhood, even the childhood of those traveling around us. Make it more interesting, give the story more life, there's a lot of things they could do with the next game or even an "expansion" that I think they're missing out on. Just, please, whatever you do, don't completely ignore our requests for actually being able to -speak- to our traveling associates and overlook our want for romances! And if I see Anders in the next game/expansion/whatever, I swear, he's dead.

/endrant.

Now, back on topic. I think that they game is pretty much already getting to the casual level. For me, a console player, Xbox 360, to be exact. The game was VERY hard for me, believe it or not. I know this may be funny to you "RPG-veterans", but it's true. The game difficulty spikes were a pain in the "arse" for me, as Oghren would say. To be honest, I had to keep the majority of the game on Casual because everytime I turned it on Normal, I would do good at first, then COMPLETELY get my.. erm, arse, handed to me. Except for on Awakening, of course. Oh, how I loathe you. On Awakening I played through the entire game on NIGHTMARE, without absolutely any problems. The only problem I remotely had was the Baroness, and after using "Sir-pounce-a-lot", she soon parished. But have you seen some of the things they're attempting to do with this franchise? I really am in fear of what direction they're headed. A comic? Let alone.. an anime? Where's the full length film? Trading cards, perhaps? OHOH, perhaps even collector's eddition bobbleheads~! :happy:

[Arttis]

DAA looked good to me i think your all over reacting

[AestheticLove]

Arttis wrote...

DAA looked good to me i think your all over reacting

Did you play it, or does this "looked good" term you use mean you only saw soem preview for it?

[Leon Evelake]

soteria wrote...

That's kind of why I said "modern common usage" because how it originated is very different from how it is used. Still I don't really think that "hack and slash" has as much to do with the amount of action as much as how it is implemented.

When did I give the impression I was talking about the etymology of the word? I'm talking about normal usage. The genre you're describing is "action," and hack and slash is just a further description. It's not a genre any more than "dungeon crawler" is a genre. Your confusion comes from the fact that most action games *are* pretty much hack and slash. A counterexample is Thief, which gives the player control of real-time combat, but is definitely not hack and slash. The accurate part of your given definition is "you just fight your way from a to b," and I think it's telling that your definition is weak since you mention fable as being only "somewhat" hack and slash.

Really you don't see a difference in Fable a game that focuses as much on jobs and weird romance as it does combat and a game like Dynasty Warriors?  Im not confused I am  disagreeing with you on how the word is used, if you watch a show like x-play (though I am not a fan) they descried hack and slash as a genera.  Many video game magazines use it in that same way.  It is affiliated with the action genera and is a sub genera of it (a sub genera is still a genera). In the same way a third person and first person shooters are sub genera's of shooters.  And I think the action genera is far larger than you are implying platformers like Mario are considered it, as is metal gear solid, fighters and sonic are considered apart of it it is immensely broad category, and is certainly not predominately hack and slash.

Still you seem to ignore my main point "Being that you cannot even control the basic attack that the dragon age characters use on their own I think calling it a "hack and slash' is inaccurate."

[TMZuk]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Zanderat wrote...

Is this casual enough? 

www.bluesnews.com/a/1889/bioware-and-funimation-entertainment-sign-movie-deal-for-dragon-age

Wow. So the Dragon Age movie everybody's been speculating about IS being made ... and it is indeed animation rather than live actors ... but it's Japanese anime.

Despite Bioware publically ragging on Japanese RPGs. 

That blows my mind on multiple levels. 

............ I DESPISE Anime! ARgh, they CANNOT do this!

[Arttis]

AestheticLove wrote...

Arttis wrote...

DAA looked good to me i think your all over reacting

Did you play it, or does this "looked good" term you use mean you only saw soem preview for it?

youtube video of someone else playing it
i think they call it lets play
so looked good
means ive been spoiled thoroughly and i know what happens in it.
i do not think they priced it right BUT it does not look bad.

Modifié par Arttis, 08 juin 2010 - 11:55 .

[Leon Evelake]

TMZuk wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

Zanderat wrote...

Is this casual enough? 

www.bluesnews.com/a/1889/bioware-and-funimation-entertainment-sign-movie-deal-for-dragon-age

Wow. So the Dragon Age movie everybody's been speculating about IS being made ... and it is indeed animation rather than live actors ... but it's Japanese anime.

Despite Bioware publically ragging on Japanese RPGs. 

That blows my mind on multiple levels. 

............ I DESPISE Anime! ARgh, they CANNOT do this!

Saying you despise anime is like saying you despise all movies or books, lump judgments are naive. It will probably be good if what was done with halo and batman are any indication.  I was actually hopeing (is that a word?) Dragon Age Would get the halo legends treatment. So not only can they do it they should.

[Arttis]

instead of calling it anime lets call it 2d animated series

Makes you think of things that are much better.

[Leon Evelake]

Arttis wrote...

instead of calling it anime lets call it 2d animated series
Makes you think of things that are much better.

Works for me.

[AestheticLove]

Arttis wrote...

AestheticLove wrote...

Arttis wrote...

DAA looked good to me i think your all over reacting

Did you play it, or does this "looked good" term you use mean you only saw soem preview for it?

youtube video of someone else playing it
i think they call it lets play
so looked good
means ive been spoiled thoroughly and i know what happens in it.
i do not think they priced it right BUT it does not look bad.

If they didn't price it right, then that also messes up the experience for a, what, 10 hour gameplay fo $50 dollars? Definitely was beyond disappointing for me. Not only that, but watching a gameplay video and actually playing the game for yourself are two completely different things. Try playing yourself and you will see how disappointing it is for yourself. I am still a huge fan of DAO, however, and that is one of the main reasons of me buying the expansion in the first place, despite people trying to convince me otherwise, countless times.

[Arttis]

i watched video reviews of DAO before it came out it fulfilled my expectations

DAA ive seen the entire thing and i think i would like it.