559 réponses à ce sujet

[Leon Evelake]

Sylixe wrote...

As i recall he basically did the bare minimum that you could to progress the story and didn't do anything special or any side quests. If you do some search back to about a month after release i think you can find the thread about it.

Ok, thanks

[Erani]

If the dialogue is like in DAA, I'm not buying it

[Derengard]

It seems that classic western RPG design in games like Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment and KotoR is  completely exhausted. Everything was done and some minor faults will always be there. The games of today are more "stylish" and visceral, but you can't expect the developer to make a step backward (financially) to the old models as well as a step forward to something more profound than just stylish and visceral. Every developer that has built a reputation will take such steps to make that reputation stronger and more profitable. Corporations like Bioware have an especially convenient spot, because they throw around words like "art", "characters", "emotional bond", "story", "cinematic", "classical", and can do this while keeping in tune with all the massmarket demands, and even refining those trends.
The hopes of some years back for games as a great narrative medium seem stifled by games being stagnant in uniformity.

Great blog (not mine), that addresses such issues: http://www.destructo.../ruicraveirinha

Modifié par Derengard, 19 juin 2010 - 04:08 .

[Broken1477]

I can see it now...

Modifié par Broken1477, 16 juin 2010 - 04:29 .

[mr_nameless]

What kills RPGS nowadays for me is the voice acting...Not a question of being bad and such, but it usually does not fit what I "imagined" of the character/creature; Most of the time it just plain cheesy or bland. Various sound sets could fix that.

Still....I really wish RPGs could stay with the written word, it is so much more powerful to express a wide range of narrative, states and feelings.



I am sorry to say also that while the Lore in DA is alright, it doesn't even come close to the richness of its D&D counterpart (Planescape, Darksun, Ptolus, Pathfinder, and such..). But that is asking too much for PC RPGs nowadays.

[Sidney]

mr_nameless wrote...

What kills RPGS nowadays for me is the voice acting...Not a question of being bad and such, but it usually does not fit what I "imagined" of the character/creature;

So you were not a fan of the talkies back in the 20's either were you?

[searanox]

David Gaider wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...
What does "casualized" even mean? I was hear that argument thrown around and I have no idea what context you're using the term.

My impression of the term and others like it is that they refer to any attempt to get away from the more traditional/hardcore aspects of a genre to gain the interest of a broader audience-- and often carry with them an implication that said audience is less discerning and less worthy of attention.

Unfortunately, a lot of the time that is actually true.  Just take a look at Fallout 3... while the mass market is not made up of drooling idiots like is often suggested, they tend to lean towards simpler game systems, a more action-oriented approach to gameplay, and so forth.  While I don't think Dragon Age is perfect as it is, I'd much rather have it grow in complexity and depth than be turned into a hack-and-slash action game with "RPG elements".  There is a tendency in the industry to equate "streamlining" with "simplicity", which is unfortunately dangerous, since they're not the same thing at all (once concerns interface and one concerns gameplay).

Modifié par searanox, 16 juin 2010 - 02:23 .

[AlanC9]

It's not like Fallout 1 had a complicated combat system, though. Pump Small Guns and shoot things in the eyes.

[Broken1477]

I have an idea; let's make the entire user interface one click! Let's get rid of the pesky inventory system, let's just have one weapon, armor, and accessory/spell set that upgrades when your character and party members automatically level-up. Wait, we should also strip out the cumbersome quest, codex and conversation systems, and remove most of the voice acting…my God, we’ll not only make it so a 5-year-old can play it, but we’ll save a fortune!!!! Let's dump the entire remaining budget into graphics and marketing. If we can make a few trailers and commercials with some universally recognizable voice actor and bombard them all with eye-candy cinematics, the game will sell itself! As long as we don’t let any of those horribly negative reviews slip through, and we buy a few “Game Of The Millennium” awards from gamer magazines, we’ll get a huge first few weeks of revenue before they all realize the game is crap and we’ve bastardized the franchise. By then, we’ll have hit that all important bottom line. Never mind the fact that, when we release a quality RPG, like the Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights and KotOR franchises, people are STILL buying and playing them...TWELVE YEARS LATER.

[GD4EVA]

No idea if this was mentioned, or not, but here it is:
http://www.joystiq.c...look-super-hot/

Make of that what you will, for I cannot make heads or tails.

Modifié par GD4EVA, 17 juin 2010 - 03:09 .

[Sidney]

Broken1477 wrote...

Let's get rid of the pesky inventory system, let's just have one weapon, armor, and accessory/spell set that upgrades when your character and party members automatically level-up. 

Again, this has nothing to do with "casual" RPG's. Jade Empire was certainly no more casual because it had an inventory syste, very similar to what you are describing.

The inventory parts of BG and KoTOR weren't for "serious gamers" they were annoying and stupid. This wasn't the kind of deep gaming hiding behind the crappy user interface of somethimg like Europa Universalis or Civilization this was just PiTA material you had to monkey around with because Bioware hasn't really figured out economics for their worlds yet.

One more time, good gameplay and strong plot and characters are far, far, far more important than arcane rule systems and inventory management. No one liked BG2 for the joy of shuffling inventory about.. You think if someone ran KoTOR through the ME2 engine the game is lessened by not having to loot more plasteel containers? Seriously?

[Rixxencaxx]

Broken1477 wrote...

I have an idea; let's make the entire user interface one click! Let's get rid of the pesky inventory system, let's just have one weapon, armor, and accessory/spell set that upgrades when your character and party members automatically level-up. Wait, we should also strip out the cumbersome quest, codex and conversation systems, and remove most of the voice acting…my God, we’ll not only make it so a 5-year-old can play it, but we’ll save a fortune!!!! Let's dump the entire remaining budget into graphics and marketing. If we can make a few trailers and commercials with some universally recognizable voice actor and bombard them all with eye-candy cinematics, the game will sell itself! As long as we don’t let any of those horribly negative reviews slip through, and we buy a few “Game Of The Millennium” awards from gamer magazines, we’ll get a huge first few weeks of revenue before they all realize the game is crap and we’ve bastardized the franchise. By then, we’ll have hit that all important bottom line. Never mind the fact that, when we release a quality RPG, like the Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights and KotOR franchises, people are STILL buying and playing them...TWELVE YEARS LATER.

mmm i suppose that bioware did all the things above to mass effect 2
However it was outsold by dragon age and his laundry list dialogue

[searanox]

GD4EVA wrote...

No idea if this was mentioned, or not, but here it is:
http://www.joystiq.c...look-super-hot/

Make of that what you will, for I cannot make heads or tails.

Thank you for reminding me that even the "underground" of the "games journalism" industry is full of sniveling morons.

[Tinxa]

GD4EVA wrote...

No idea if this was mentioned, or not, but here it is:
http://www.joystiq.c...look-super-hot/

Make of that what you will, for I cannot make heads or tails.

Why do some people make this article the embodiement of their worst fears?  I saw posts worried that it means that all characters will look like anime, that story will be abandoned in favour of graphics ect.
All it says is that they'll optimise the engine to make water reflect and sparkle and swords extra shiny. They did that in all sequels using the same engine. At least that's what I make of it

[Broken1477]

IMHO, Jade Empire sucked.



I agree we need good writers, good characters, good depth of plot, good lore, good and gritty storylines, etc.



I also like the having a ridiculous amount of skills, attributes, spells, classes, races, weapons and armor. I realize there is a good measure of micromanaging with all of these things, but it is, from my perspective, most of what makes an RPG replayable. Nothing beats the feeling when you kill something or pick a lock and finding that "OMYGODTHISISFRIGGINAWESOME" weapon, rune, saber crystal, etc.



When you can play the same game as a different race and class and it truly feels like a different game, you have a winner. You have a game that will develop a passionate fan following who will be loyal and defend you with their last breath, and spend their hard earned dollars on all your DLCs. When you cheapen their experience and sellout the franchise they love...they will smack you down for it. You will see it in player reviews that have stark contrast to critical reviews; i.e. Far Cry 2. You will see it in the content and quality of your forum. Lastly, you will eventually see it in sales, and consumer confidence in your ability to produce a satisfactory product.

[Sidney]

Broken1477 wrote...

IMHO, Jade Empire sucked.

I agree we need good writers, good characters, good depth of plot, good lore, good and gritty storylines, etc.

I also like the having a ridiculous amount of skills, attributes, spells, classes, races, weapons and armor. I realize there is a good measure of micromanaging with all of these things, but it is, from my perspective, most of what makes an RPG replayable. Nothing beats the feeling when you kill something or pick a lock and finding that "OMYGODTHISISFRIGGINAWESOME" weapon, rune, saber crystal, etc.

Jade Empire sucked?  You don't care about writing do you because that was fantastic? The game had a ton of replaybaility because depending upon how you built your character it really was a very different feeling game despite not having scores of stupid skills or a raft of crap to carry around.

Yes, we all like the "this is awsome feel" when we find something but the problem is that 99% of what you find is "Darkspawn Longsword" or "Wooden Shield" and not "Super Cool Magical Sword". I want to find the magic sword, I never again want to find a lump of steel used by a guard and tote it around.

Skills don't matter to me in terms of quantity. I want them to make my character feel different. Jade might not have had as many skills as, well, DAO, but the melee, magic and shapeshifters all felt very differeny when you played them. The other effect is to focus skills (ME2) so that you don't get everything but just what your character does well. My Vanguard, Soldier and Infiltrator feel very different but I'll see a ton of whining about skills there.

[Feraele]

Broken1477 wrote...

I have an idea; let's make the entire user interface one click! Let's get rid of the pesky inventory system, let's just have one weapon, armor, and accessory/spell set that upgrades when your character and party members automatically level-up. Wait, we should also strip out the cumbersome quest, codex and conversation systems, and remove most of the voice acting…my God, we’ll not only make it so a 5-year-old can play it, but we’ll save a fortune!!!! Let's dump the entire remaining budget into graphics and marketing. If we can make a few trailers and commercials with some universally recognizable voice actor and bombard them all with eye-candy cinematics, the game will sell itself! As long as we don’t let any of those horribly negative reviews slip through, and we buy a few “Game Of The Millennium” awards from gamer magazines, we’ll get a huge first few weeks of revenue before they all realize the game is crap and we’ve bastardized the franchise. By then, we’ll have hit that all important bottom line. Never mind the fact that, when we release a quality RPG, like the Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights and KotOR franchises, people are STILL buying and playing them...TWELVE YEARS LATER.

Hopefully this was all said "tongue-in-cheek",   lol.

[Serious Chicken]

Tell you what, y'all anal-ysts and investors build your own colony in the moon so you can get off my planet and go live there.



Leave my stuff alone, and that includes my computer games.



Thank you very much.

[Emmab]

I really enjoyed Dragon Age - and don't want to see the 'simplification' that is talked about here either. I think it's the right depth that many people do enjoy it, but still has the complexity for many replays and different types of characters.



Just right, for my tastes.

[Derengard]

Serious Chicken wrote...

Tell you what, y'all anal-ysts and investors build your own colony in the moon so you can get off my planet and go live there.

Leave my stuff alone, and that includes my computer games.

Thank you very much.

Referring to other gamers or big fat companies? Edit: sorry for not noticing the obvious solution. Seems my brain wasn't working correctly.

Modifié par Derengard, 19 juin 2010 - 04:14 .

[Broken1477]

Sidney wrote...
Jade Empire sucked?  You don't care about writing do you because that was fantastic? The game had a ton of replaybaility because depending upon how you built your character it really was a very different feeling game despite not having scores of stupid skills or a raft of crap to carry around.

My opinion.  One man's fantastic is another man's cheese. 

Sidney wrote...
Yes, we all like the "this is awsome feel" when we find something but the problem is that 99% of what you find is "Darkspawn Longsword" or "Wooden Shield" and not "Super Cool Magical Sword". I want to find the magic sword, I never again want to find a lump of steel used by a guard and tote it around.

Uh...so don't pick it up?

Sidney wrote...
Skills don't matter to me in terms of quantity. I want them to make my character feel different. Jade might not have had as many skills as, well, DAO, but the melee, magic and shapeshifters all felt very differeny when you played them. The other effect is to focus skills (ME2) so that you don't get everything but just what your character does well. My Vanguard, Soldier and Infiltrator feel very different but I'll see a ton of whining about skills there.

Yeah, and I appreciate ME2 for what it is.  I played through twice,  Dragon Age, six times thusfar.  It isn't that I didn't enjoy ME2, but I'd like it a lot more if I could play through as a Quarian, Geth, or Turian...and God forbid I be able to carry an assault rifle AND use biotics.

If you feel that your character in Dragon Age is too powerful, adjust your difficulty level.  DANexus has a balancing mod that forces a cool-off after using a health poultice or mana potion.

Don't advocate something that will strip the game of elements, I believe, most of the hardcore players like myself enjoy.

[Leon Evelake]

Sidney wrote...

Broken1477 wrote...

IMHO, Jade Empire sucked.

I agree we need good writers, good characters, good depth of plot, good lore, good and gritty storylines, etc.

I also like the having a ridiculous amount of skills, attributes, spells, classes, races, weapons and armor. I realize there is a good measure of micromanaging with all of these things, but it is, from my perspective, most of what makes an RPG replayable. Nothing beats the feeling when you kill something or pick a lock and finding that "OMYGODTHISISFRIGGINAWESOME" weapon, rune, saber crystal, etc.

Jade Empire sucked?  You don't care about writing do you because that was fantastic? The game had a ton of replaybaility because depending upon how you built your character it really was a very different feeling game despite not having scores of stupid skills or a raft of crap to carry around.

Yes, we all like the "this is awsome feel" when we find something but the problem is that 99% of what you find is "Darkspawn Longsword" or "Wooden Shield" and not "Super Cool Magical Sword". I want to find the magic sword, I never again want to find a lump of steel used by a guard and tote it around.

Skills don't matter to me in terms of quantity. I want them to make my character feel different. Jade might not have had as many skills as, well, DAO, but the melee, magic and shapeshifters all felt very differeny when you played them. The other effect is to focus skills (ME2) so that you don't get everything but just what your character does well. My Vanguard, Soldier and Infiltrator feel very different but I'll see a ton of whining about skills there.

I truly do not understand the amount of bashing Jade Empire gets on these boards.  I agree with you that while the game did not have as many learnable skills that the different styles all felt nice and unique.  I also think that Jade Empires being that its combat seemed rather more immediate than Dragon Ages that it made up for minor flaws.

In regards to inventory I disagree.  I thin k there was a good amount of special weapons in the game and personally liked finding all the generic ones because it was an easy source of income in the game.  Just selling off the junk you come across in one of the treaties missions can earn you 25-50 gold easy that is not bad compared to the paying jobs in the game.

[AlanC9]

Broken1477 wrote...

Uh...so don't pick it up?

Sure, but if you don't then you can't afford to buy stuff that actually is worth getting. You also don't know what's been dropped until you actually look at the corpses, so if you don't look at the junk items you won't get any cash either.

[Broken1477]

Oh well, screw it. Let them dumb it down. I'm sure, like I said in my original post, they will get decent initial dividends, as long as they buy up a few "Game Of The Universe" awards. The ignorant, lapdog, fanboys will lap it up, and someone in some boardroom somewhere will say "See, I was right, casualize and we win." Unfortunately, it will only be short-term, and they they will be fidgeting in the same boardroom trying to explain why their expansion packs, DLCs and further titles tank. I can find something else to play. There's still hope for another Elder Scrolls or some such title. Bioware is not the end-all and be-all of RPGs, especially since EA got their dirty hands on them.

[Broken1477]

EA=Evil Archdemon