559 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanderat]

AlanC9 wrote...

Where did this rumor that DA outsold ME2 come from?

@ Zanderat -- that's the problem with exaggerating. If someone isn't with you already you don't communciate anything. I thought you were talking about a certain spirit in DAO.

Yup.  It REALLY bugged me how you can't initiate conversation in Awakening.  In fact, if this system is brought into DA2, I will be forced to pass.  The involving camp conversations are largely what makes this game.

Modifié par Zanderat, 20 mai 2010 - 01:21 .

[AlanC9]

Vaeliorin wrote...
Besides, there's almost nothing more annoying than spending an hour or two making your way through a dungeon, only to come to the end of it and find that you're not able to beat it because you lack the resources, and having to replay the whole dungeon.

In practice, game designers haven't had the guts to do that anyway. In the IE games there were few places where you couldn't rest more or less at will, and almost none where you couldn't backtrack to some relatively safe area if you didn't mind wasting five minutes or so. Sure, they'd hit you with random encounters, but you could fight them off until you got lucky and succeed in resting, and end up in the same place except with more gold and XP.

And then there was the really awful ToEE implementation, where Temple random encounters were not only beatable but dropped healing potions too, effectively recharging party resources rather than draining them.

While there are theoretical reasons to like the D&D approach, in actual use it has simply failed to deliver.

[Leon Evelake]

Bfler wrote...

" If DA2 ends up being a hack 'n' slash action game with a dialogue system tacked on to it, I'm not buying it."

Isn't that what Awakening already is?

Ha ha ...sad but true,

[David Gaider]

Hmm. What if we changed more about a future Dragon Age than you might like? Quel horreur!

I imagine it would look something like this:

Stage 1: Denial
Posts of "no, it can't be true!" and "maybe they didn't mean what we think it means!"

Stage 2: Anger
As the truth sinks in, posts of "Bioware, you have betrayed all that is good and righteous!" and furious predictions of financial collapse and boycotts, etc. etc.

Stage 3: Bargaining
Hopeful posts of "Well, if we don't get X will we still get Y?" and "Well, since there's still Z maybe X won't seem that bad" or even "Will we be able to change X ourselves?"

Stage 4: Depression
"Bioware is dead", "RPG's are dead", etc. ad nauseum as that glorious, scintillating might-have-been is now really gone.

and finally Stage 5: Acceptance
You see whatever game it is for what it actually is and enjoy it on its own terms.

or, alternatively Stage 5: Acceptance
You realize it's not the game for you, but might be for other people. You move on.

or, if you really must, you go back to Stage 1: Denial
You refuse to accept the presence of X in your beloved game, or any game for that matter, and begin a bitter campaign to convince everyone else that it is the travesty you think it is. If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.


...at least, that's how it usually happens. Or so I've found over the years.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 mai 2010 - 11:39 .

[Quicksilverk]

David Gaider wrote...

Hmm. What if we changed more about a future Dragon Age than you might like? Quel horreur!

I imagine it would look something like this:

Stage 1: Denial
Posts of "no, it can't be true!" and "maybe they didn't mean what we think it means!"

Stage 2: Anger
As the truth sinks in, posts of "Bioware, you have betrayed all that is good and righteous!" and furious predictions of financial collapse and boycotts, etc. etc.

Stage 3: Bargaining
Hopeful posts of "Well, if we don't get X will we still get Y?" and "Well, since there's still Z maybe X won't seem that bad" or even "Will we be able to change X ourselves?"

Stage 4: Depression
"Bioware is dead", "RPG's are dead", etc. ad nauseum as that glorious, scintillating might-have-been is now really gone.

and finally Stage 5: Acceptance
You see whatever game it is for what it actually is and enjoy it on its own terms.

or, alternatively Stage 5: Acceptance
You realize it's not the game for you, but might be for other people. You move on.

or, if you really must, you go back to Stage 1: Denial
You refuse to accept the presence of X in your beloved game, or any game for that matter, and begin a bitter campaign to convince everyone else that it is the travesty you think it is. If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.


...at least, that's how it usually happens. Or so I've found over the years.

I love your posts. ^^

They cut right to the chase. As someone who only discovered Bioware recently but have added Mass Effect and Dragon Age to my 'favourite game series' list which previously only included Thief and Deus Ex, I have faith that any future installments of either franchise will be top notch. Diving into arguments about something not yet created is, to me, meaningless. The end product will probably be stellar like previous titles so that's all that counts!

Also, I really hope you made that post while in character as 'Dr. Hendrick' from Scrubs, it would make it even greater!

Here's a link in case people don't get what I mean:

Modifié par Quicksilverk, 25 mai 2010 - 11:46 .

[Lux]

Leon Evelake wrote...

Bfler wrote...

" If DA2 ends up being a hack 'n' slash action game with a dialogue system tacked on to it, I'm not buying it."

Isn't that what Awakening already is?

Ha ha ...sad but true,

Awakening is an expansion released too soon to the market, and where they decided to try something more cost-effective with the dialogue. That dialogue system will hopefully get improved, and version 2 of DA will not become slave to a cost-effective formula that I'm sure EA would love to see implemented across the board.

And where are the patches? They're too busy releasing DLCs and there's not enough time, it seems, to fix a plethora of bugs that came with that expansion. Two months later, and nothing yet. I can understand the financial viewpoint, but this is certainly not a good sign for us players.

My point is that BioWare is lowering quality and doesn't seem to be able (anymore) to release a game "when it's done". As far as action games go, It's funny that after my first playthrough, I rarely went back to ME2, but keep getting to Dragon Age. DAO with its rich, enveloping, highly replayable world has been worth every cent of the money I payed for it.

I hope that DA2 will not become a victim of dumbing down what made the original a joy to go back and play time and time again. Of course that I'm speaking as a mature gamer with little pacience for teenage hack and slash. Alas, it seems that EA is looking to cater to that audience, which doesn't seem to care much about depth in a game.

[Sloth Of Doom]

David Gaider wrote...

or, if you really must, you go back to Stage 1: Denial
You refuse to accept the presence of X in your beloved game, or any game for that matter, and begin a bitter campaign to convince everyone else that it is the travesty you think it is. If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.


...at least, that's how it usually happens. Or so I've found over the years.

Damnit man, you made choke on my icecap.

[TheMadCat]

So if we find the changes to be terrible and counterproductive, it's not because they're actually terrible and counterproductive but because we're in denial? Did I get that logic right?

And what's RPG Codex? I feel like I missed out on a punch line there?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 25 mai 2010 - 11:54 .

[AlanC9]

Merkar wrote...
My point is that BioWare is lowering quality and doesn't seem to be able (anymore) to release a game "when it's done"

They never were able to do that. If you think otherwise your memory has failed you.

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...
And what's RPG Codex? I feel like I missed out on a punch line there?

Google is your friend.

[TheMadCat]

AlanC9 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
And what's RPG Codex? I feel like I missed out on a punch line there?

Google is your friend.

No sherlock, I did that and got a website. Given the context David mentionted it in and Sloth bolding it and laughing about it there is something a little deeper then Google would show don't you think.

[Sloth Of Doom]

TheMadCat wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
And what's RPG Codex? I feel like I missed out on a punch line there?

Google is your friend.

No sherlock, I did that and got a website. Given the context David mentionted it in and Sloth bolding it and laughing about it there is something a little deeper then Google would show don't you think.

Well, you would need to actually like spend some time on the site to see exactly what kind of person is a regular there.   Definitely the bottom of the RPG-site barrel.

[Syracuse]

AlanC9 wrote...

Merkar wrote...
My point is that BioWare is lowering quality and doesn't seem to be able (anymore) to release a game "when it's done"

They never were able to do that. If you think otherwise your memory has failed you.

What company ever does? Have you never played a single Blizzard game? They'll push back release by a year or more, and the game will *still* be a work in progress. And, it will still be great...same with Bioware. If completeness is a sign of quality or greatness, someone better get a memo to Jane Austen, Mozart, and Jimi Hendrix, because they just slipped a notch on the historical scale; millions of people know and love great works they never finished in their lifetimes...we're just talking about a video game.
If Bioware's cheapness, laziness, ineptitude or disregard for your feelings is an issue, trade in the game *prior* to the thirty-hour mark and find something that's more your speed; complaining bitterly after the fact can't be making anyone (least of all you who are posting unhappily) feel better. Don't cheat yourself out of recreational time
Bioware has three of the top five rated RPG's of all time on Game Rankings; it could just be that this game (or Bioware games in general) are not for you, but they're certainly doing it for a good majority of us, flaws and all.

[Leon Evelake]

Merkar wrote...

Leon Evelake wrote...

Bfler wrote...

" If DA2 ends up being a hack 'n' slash action game with a dialogue system tacked on to it, I'm not buying it."

Isn't that what Awakening already is?

Ha ha ...sad but true,

Awakening is an expansion released too soon to the market, and where they decided to try something more cost-effective with the dialogue. That dialogue system will hopefully get improved, and version 2 of DA will not become slave to a cost-effective formula that I'm sure EA would love to see implemented across the board.

And where are the patches? They're too busy releasing DLCs and there's not enough time, it seems, to fix a plethora of bugs that came with that expansion. Two months later, and nothing yet. I can understand the financial viewpoint, but this is certainly not a good sign for us players.

My point is that BioWare is lowering quality and doesn't seem to be able (anymore) to release a game "when it's done". As far as action games go, It's funny that after my first playthrough, I rarely went back to ME2, but keep getting to Dragon Age. DAO with its rich, enveloping, highly replayable world has been worth every cent of the money I payed for it.

I hope that DA2 will not become a victim of dumbing down what made the original a joy to go back and play time and time again. Of course that I'm speaking as a mature gamer with little pacience for teenage hack and slash. Alas, it seems that EA is looking to cater to that audience, which doesn't seem to care much about depth in a game.

 Don't get me wrong I liked awakening and while I disliked the conversation system, considering it was an expansion it worked for that.  I just worry about this unpleasant trend in modern game development to casualize (that a word?) games.  Far to many series I loved have taken steps backwards because of this.  I don't really know much about Bioware I am new to this site and have only played Jade Empire and Dragon Age both of which are in my top 10 list of favorite games,  so i dont know how likely it is that they would casualize their games I don't really think ones like Dragon Age lend itself towards it though.
.....................
As for Mr. Gaiders amusingly sarcastic comments
I don't think its to unreasonable  for fans to fret over the future installments of game they love, especially considering certain trends.  I am not sure who he was responding to, while many on these boards are just habitual complainers that never seem satisfied there are many who have legitimate concerns in regards to many issues.

[David Gaider]

Leon Evelake wrote...
I don't think its to unreasonable  for fans to fret over the future installments of game they love, especially considering certain trends.  I am not sure who he was responding to, while many on these boards are just habitual complainers that never seem satisfied there are many who have legitimate concerns in regards to many issues.

Did I say it was unreasonable? Not at all. The "X" could be anything, and I imply no objective value to its quality-- it's simply what we decided to put there. I'm just saying that if there is an "X" which you consider to be a deal-breaker (and for your average RPG fan there appears to be many) that's essentially what it comes down to. Beyond that, reasoned feedback is always welcome.

[Lux]

AlanC9 wrote...

Merkar wrote...
My point is that BioWare is lowering quality and doesn't seem to be able (anymore) to release a game "when it's done"

They never were able to do that. If you think otherwise your memory has failed you.

True enough. There will always be bugs; but how about products that are rushed to the market and surpass an acceptable number of bugs? I would hope that Awakening isn't an example of what's to come, and was only a necessity at a given point in time.

I got Awakening last weekend (take my word for it, I haven't gotten into adding it to BSN), I finished it, and to me it feels rushed, given the amount of crashes and bugs I've experienced. What's worse to us players is that no patch has been forthcoming long after that expansion has been released.

Taking into effect the subject of this thread, there's some balacing to be made between the need for DLCs (dev livelihood) and the need for patches (gamers' trust and happiness); also for an appropriate balance of cost-effective formulas that would otherwise lower the quality of version 2.

Modifié par Merkar, 26 mai 2010 - 01:00 .

[Darth Drago]

If Dragon Age 2 gets butchered as badly as Mass Effect 2 was, then I’m done with BioWare , period. EA in general I try to avoid anyways since they seem to focus more on making a quick but over quality.

Let them make their move and hope Dragon Age 2 is as good and even better than the first game. If not, well I guess we consumers can tell BioWare/EA where to stick their next game.

I didn’t see DAO is a casualized game at all. It’s a solid fantasy RPG with some new elements to make the genre fresh in my opinion.


My fear is DA2 will get dumbed down with drastic changes.
-Levels and locations will be cut down to ¼ their current size.
-Mission Result screens.
-All your quest givers will be conveniently located within a few feet from the entrance of each city.
-Most side quests will also only take a short walk away to complete.
-Once you finish a quest you’ll get fast traveled back to where you got the quest.
-Side quests will be removed or cut down drastically.
-Spells, talents and skills will get reduced to only a scant few.
-Inventory, gone.
-To get ammo for your bow/crossbow you will have to rummage around a battlefield to pick up bundles of arrows and bolts.
-Instead of a fantasy role playing game it will be catered to the general hack and slash crowd.
-Levels will be designed to look and feel like a player vs. player arenas.
-The first 2 levels of the game will have tutorials that turn cant turn off.
-The game will start off with your character getting killed and brought back to life to work for the Darkspawn.
-Button/keyboard layout will be changed.
-Skills, spells and talents will be changed to relflect on the hack and slash gameplay.
-classes will also be "fixed" for our best interest.

[Alodar]

David Gaider wrote...

If you play the game, you are determined to hate it-- and voila! You do! Possibly you hang out on RPG Codex.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Perhaps people need to put a more positive spin on their issues. Instead of spamming all the thing's you're scared will happen in DA2, why not tell the devs what you love about DA? Show them that we hope things won't stray too far from the original style by praising the original style, rather than pooh-poohing the alternatives.

[TheMadCat]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Perhaps people need to put a more positive spin on their issues. Instead of spamming all the thing's you're scared will happen in DA2, why not tell the devs what you love about DA? Show them that we hope things won't stray too far from the original style by praising the original style, rather than pooh-poohing the alternatives.

To be fair people did spam all the things they loved about DA:O the first 4 months after release, now they've moved on and the new thing is either spam what you hate about it, say BioWare is circling the toilet, or fear for future titles. 

[CybAnt1]

Stage 1: Denial
Stage 2: Anger
Stage 3: Bargaining
Stage 4: Depression
Stage 5: Acceptance

Hmmm, David, I always find your writing interesting -- both inside the game and outside -- and it's certainly never the story writing in Bioware games that's ever bothered me. Just the lack of it, when I wish it was there. 

But, was it the wisest idea to couch your argument in the five stages Elizabeth Kubler Ross listed as being the stages preceding dying? Maybe not the best way to argue that Bioware (or its player community) will continue to live.... 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 26 mai 2010 - 02:58 .

[Leon Evelake]

David Gaider wrote...

Leon Evelake wrote...
I don't think its to unreasonable  for fans to fret over the future installments of game they love, especially considering certain trends.  I am not sure who he was responding to, while many on these boards are just habitual complainers that never seem satisfied there are many who have legitimate concerns in regards to many issues.

Did I say it was unreasonable? Not at all. The "X" could be anything, and I imply no objective value to its quality-- it's simply what we decided to put there. I'm just saying that if there is an "X" which you consider to be a deal-breaker (and for your average RPG fan there appears to be many) that's essentially what it comes down to. Beyond that, reasoned feedback is always welcome.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth as it were. You seemed a bit annoyed in your first post, but considering all the excessive complaining (edit : on these threads) that makes sense.

Modifié par Leon Evelake, 26 mai 2010 - 03:15 .

[Ivellios goladon]

 Ah, the casual vs. hardcore debate rises..

Let's just end this quickly and say the casual side wins! 

Ok, but seriously I have been a huge fan of Bioware, and all of their projects that they have done. I've played BG, BG2 +ToB, NWN + all expansions, ME + ME2, DA:O. (Who really cares though? This doesn't give me much credit )  The truth is that Bioware, which is a company, is looking to make profit they will sell to the bigger market. In order to sell to the bigger market they will have to start a project that the bigger market will purchase, and lets face it, it's casual players.

The casual players does not want to go to camp, spend 30 minutes there talking to people. They want the conversations to be simpler, streamlined, and also more time efficient so when they are doing quests they will learn about their companion characters, instead of (Previously stated) sitting in a camp waiting in line to speak with each character. Easily accessible is what the casual player wants. casual player is probably going to want to head into the action, then have your companion tell me a story about how this location relates to them. Awesome, now I didn't have to wait to go back to camp sit there and say your stuff, once your done I can go back to my quest, and not have to go to the next companion in line.

Now, I'm in no way hating on the casual player, I understand where the casual player is coming from. Heck I myself with time constraints am becoming more of a casual player, I want to know whats going in this story and I don't have the patience or time to sit here and have my companions tell me there life story, and to go on to the next one, and so forth.

Is this where Bioware is headed to cater to the casuals? More than likely, lets look at MMO's. WoW it has dominated the MMO space. Why? It's easy to learn, easy to play, and people can learn it very easily as they go on. It's accessible. We've already heard from Bioware on SWTOR that they're not going to for hardcore players, they're going for the casuals. 

So what do the hardcore players do if the trend continues to cater to casual gamers? Indie developers might be their hope. Quick switch back to MMO's, anyone played EvE? or Ultima Online? Those are what we might consider hardcore MMO's..and as we know hardcore + MMO's =/= profit (or very much). There is a indie Sweden developer that are in the process of making a project, its called Mortal Online. Anyway, they are essentially bringing back the 'hardcore' aspect back to MMO's, with full PVP, Open world, Strict death penalty, will able to steal from other players, loot other player corpses. Etc. if you look at the screen shots, graphics are definitely not up to part with current games, there are probably lots of bugs, and servers lag insane (Or so I've heard).

It looks like the hardcore players have a choice.
1. Accept the casual games.
2. Support (some) indie developers, which you probably will much more of an open channel to as far as communication goes.
3. Stop gaming.

At least thats what I can think of as far as options go.

/flame

Modifié par Ivellios goladon, 26 mai 2010 - 03:27 .

[Elric of Grans]

Personally, I was fairly disappointed by Dragon Age: Origins. I had to install dozens of mods to address issues (eg bug fixes, more descriptive skill information, etc) before it was even `playable' for me, and even then I still had major issues (namely: regular crashing). That said, I have high hopes for Dragon Age 2. BioWare are paying unusually high attention to the fan response to Dragon Age. I have observed that the same complaints are being made by the overwhelming majority of people, and I am sure BioWare has made the same observations. I suspect Dragon Age 2 will take the solid basis of the game and build on it to be a rock-solid game that blows this one out of the water.



For the record, I am an eternal pessimist. It is very unusual for me to have an optimistic outlook to *anything*.